RE: New Mercedes-AMG C63 confirmed as 650hp hybrid
Discussion
I’ve owned 2 C63’s of the M156 6.2 variety. And I’ve owned an A45. I did around 25k miles in each one. I drove them on the same roads, so, back to back I know the detailed differences. I most loved getting 7mpg out of the ‘63 on a 20-30 mile blast. On the same route in the ‘45, it always felt special. I wouldn’t say never for a PHEVAMG - but it’s probably never. I’m glad I had mine in the moment. I’m glad I now have an M2C - manual. I don’t like BEV’s, I’ve driven a lot of them - Tesla & the BMW i3 mostly. I like things that are engineered & hewn from a diverse range of materials. I don’t like software updates, screens in the dash & electric motors. My opinions won’t make a jot of difference, BEV’s are coming as it’s a political agenda. I don’t like my hobby being constrained by politics. In the free world - everyone has their freedoms - I want to keep mine. But I won’t be able to. Flame away...
Wow.
Amazingly impressive engineering but I just can’t bring myself to give two s
ts about it. Which is weird, because fast family cars are right up my ally.
Needs 200bhp and 350kg less, and at least 2 or 4 cylinders more. Oh wait, that’s the last one (or the one before that).
Cars absolutely peaked between 2005 and 2015. Since then, it’s just been a triumph of technology over all else. I’m sure the throttle-mashing, pop-pop exhaust brigade are gonna love it though.
Amazingly impressive engineering but I just can’t bring myself to give two s
ts about it. Which is weird, because fast family cars are right up my ally.Needs 200bhp and 350kg less, and at least 2 or 4 cylinders more. Oh wait, that’s the last one (or the one before that).
Cars absolutely peaked between 2005 and 2015. Since then, it’s just been a triumph of technology over all else. I’m sure the throttle-mashing, pop-pop exhaust brigade are gonna love it though.
I am not criticizing peoples opinions, as its a personal or emotional thing. But a C63S owner here....
Got to think about volumes and what can they make money on. I cant find any accurate numbers on the number of C63's sold across its lifespan, but its a niche car at best. The market for a $75k small saloon is small, and when you factor in the 'out of the door' price, most are on the thick end of $85k - you have a small volume seller worldwide.
With the ever increasing pressure on emissions and MPG, they have to do something. As impressive the C63S can be, it will struggle to get more than 22MPG in average use. You can see more on a consistent run, but the very best I ever saw on a trip was 26MPG! This is not great and when you factor in everyday life, you are going to get 18-20MPG. When we think about the coming rules, regulations and potential fines to manufacturers, this is a big factor.
The V8TT is a great engine and I will miss it. But buyers are getting thinner on the ground and are expecting different things. SUV's, EV's, Screens, technology, convenience and ultimately economy. Think about the options for the engine though? The current W205 is 6 years old - could they really improve the economy and emissions? How much of a stand-out will be be in 2027, when the adoption of EV's is 6 years down the line, are customers really going to buy a big noisy and thirsty engine?
And finally, BMW M sells more than AMG worldwide. Both 'brands' are more diluted than ever before, but its an opportunity for both to make money, they are businesses after all. Maybe AMG are trying to jump ahead of BMW M here and are trying to prep themselves for the future? The refresh cycle for Mercedes is pretty steady. Its the W206 model next, but in 2022 for the AMG models. Other V8TT models will persist for a while - G, GLC, AMG GT, GLE etc - all have just been refreshed, so expect them to be around for another 2-3 years minimum.
Got to think about volumes and what can they make money on. I cant find any accurate numbers on the number of C63's sold across its lifespan, but its a niche car at best. The market for a $75k small saloon is small, and when you factor in the 'out of the door' price, most are on the thick end of $85k - you have a small volume seller worldwide.
With the ever increasing pressure on emissions and MPG, they have to do something. As impressive the C63S can be, it will struggle to get more than 22MPG in average use. You can see more on a consistent run, but the very best I ever saw on a trip was 26MPG! This is not great and when you factor in everyday life, you are going to get 18-20MPG. When we think about the coming rules, regulations and potential fines to manufacturers, this is a big factor.
The V8TT is a great engine and I will miss it. But buyers are getting thinner on the ground and are expecting different things. SUV's, EV's, Screens, technology, convenience and ultimately economy. Think about the options for the engine though? The current W205 is 6 years old - could they really improve the economy and emissions? How much of a stand-out will be be in 2027, when the adoption of EV's is 6 years down the line, are customers really going to buy a big noisy and thirsty engine?
And finally, BMW M sells more than AMG worldwide. Both 'brands' are more diluted than ever before, but its an opportunity for both to make money, they are businesses after all. Maybe AMG are trying to jump ahead of BMW M here and are trying to prep themselves for the future? The refresh cycle for Mercedes is pretty steady. Its the W206 model next, but in 2022 for the AMG models. Other V8TT models will persist for a while - G, GLC, AMG GT, GLE etc - all have just been refreshed, so expect them to be around for another 2-3 years minimum.
Harry_523 said:
"oh no, a fast C class has a 4 cylinder".... 190E Cosworth anyone?
AMGs arent necessarily about V8s, just insane power and a great soundtrack. 650hp ticks the power box, and they pulled of the sound when they switched to turbo V8s, so whats to say they cant make a 4cyl sound great?
190E Cosworths were slow as fook even when they were new AMGs arent necessarily about V8s, just insane power and a great soundtrack. 650hp ticks the power box, and they pulled of the sound when they switched to turbo V8s, so whats to say they cant make a 4cyl sound great?
.off_again said:
I am not criticizing peoples opinions, as its a personal or emotional thing. But a C63S owner here....
Got to think about volumes and what can they make money on. I cant find any accurate numbers on the number of C63's sold across its lifespan, but its a niche car at best. The market for a $75k small saloon is small, and when you factor in the 'out of the door' price, most are on the thick end of $85k - you have a small volume seller worldwide.
With the ever increasing pressure on emissions and MPG, they have to do something. As impressive the C63S can be, it will struggle to get more than 22MPG in average use. You can see more on a consistent run, but the very best I ever saw on a trip was 26MPG! This is not great and when you factor in everyday life, you are going to get 18-20MPG. When we think about the coming rules, regulations and potential fines to manufacturers, this is a big factor.
The V8TT is a great engine and I will miss it. But buyers are getting thinner on the ground and are expecting different things. SUV's, EV's, Screens, technology, convenience and ultimately economy. Think about the options for the engine though? The current W205 is 6 years old - could they really improve the economy and emissions? How much of a stand-out will be be in 2027, when the adoption of EV's is 6 years down the line, are customers really going to buy a big noisy and thirsty engine?
And finally, BMW M sells more than AMG worldwide. Both 'brands' are more diluted than ever before, but its an opportunity for both to make money, they are businesses after all. Maybe AMG are trying to jump ahead of BMW M here and are trying to prep themselves for the future? The refresh cycle for Mercedes is pretty steady. Its the W206 model next, but in 2022 for the AMG models. Other V8TT models will persist for a while - G, GLC, AMG GT, GLE etc - all have just been refreshed, so expect them to be around for another 2-3 years minimum.
Well said. I'd also like to add - 4Matic. As I am sure not many are used on track day's so the sure footedness of 4WD will be another addition to celebrate.Got to think about volumes and what can they make money on. I cant find any accurate numbers on the number of C63's sold across its lifespan, but its a niche car at best. The market for a $75k small saloon is small, and when you factor in the 'out of the door' price, most are on the thick end of $85k - you have a small volume seller worldwide.
With the ever increasing pressure on emissions and MPG, they have to do something. As impressive the C63S can be, it will struggle to get more than 22MPG in average use. You can see more on a consistent run, but the very best I ever saw on a trip was 26MPG! This is not great and when you factor in everyday life, you are going to get 18-20MPG. When we think about the coming rules, regulations and potential fines to manufacturers, this is a big factor.
The V8TT is a great engine and I will miss it. But buyers are getting thinner on the ground and are expecting different things. SUV's, EV's, Screens, technology, convenience and ultimately economy. Think about the options for the engine though? The current W205 is 6 years old - could they really improve the economy and emissions? How much of a stand-out will be be in 2027, when the adoption of EV's is 6 years down the line, are customers really going to buy a big noisy and thirsty engine?
And finally, BMW M sells more than AMG worldwide. Both 'brands' are more diluted than ever before, but its an opportunity for both to make money, they are businesses after all. Maybe AMG are trying to jump ahead of BMW M here and are trying to prep themselves for the future? The refresh cycle for Mercedes is pretty steady. Its the W206 model next, but in 2022 for the AMG models. Other V8TT models will persist for a while - G, GLC, AMG GT, GLE etc - all have just been refreshed, so expect them to be around for another 2-3 years minimum.
pacdes said:
Well said. I'd also like to add - 4Matic. As I am sure not many are used on track day's so the sure footedness of 4WD will be another addition to celebrate.
Oh yeah, forgot about that - seriously, I live in California where the weather is not bad and rain is a 3 months a year problem. Even then, 500BHP RWD and cold tires can be an issue. Its common for the C63S to burn through rear tires at a shocking rate and due to the e-diff system, expect the rear pads to wear quickly too. People do run them in colder regions, but you absolutely must change to winter / snow tires or you are going in a ditch!With the E63 and M5 going AWD and the new M3/4 having the option - AMG needed to respond. Packaging for the engine is tight in the W205 and there is no way they can fit some sort of diff and front wheel drive system. That engine is very well designed and packaged, but there isnt space to fit AWD.
AMG have done a fantastic job of tuning their AWD system in the A45 models to make them performance focused, so I have confidence that the W206 will have a great drive system with 4matic. But to expect AMG to push the next (and higher power) C63 out to the door without 4matic is a risky move. Dodge does sell the 707BHP Hellcat powered RWD models here in the US, but this is a niche of a niche and they have value on their side (its a $61k car by the way).
Would I put my money where my mouth is and go for an AMG hybrid turbo car? Yeah, maybe. Will wait to see of course, but as long as it drives well and has the fun factor, it could be an amazing way to blast over the mountains or have fun on a track. OK, so it wont sound as good as the V8TT - but if it drives well, isnt that half of the problem?
Want performance and economy then go electric. This middle ground is just... uninspiring.
Hopefully when electric is so practical (500+ mile ranges) then manufacturers can start creating more characterful ‘enthusiast’ cars. Cars at the moment are stuck in a transitional period which won’t be looked back on favourably.
Hopefully when electric is so practical (500+ mile ranges) then manufacturers can start creating more characterful ‘enthusiast’ cars. Cars at the moment are stuck in a transitional period which won’t be looked back on favourably.
Mackofthejungle said:
I don't see much appeal in modern V8s anyway - brash, tuneless things with programmed in character. But these complex hybrids with stressed engines will be in the bin in 10 years. Zero appeal. No chance of them growing old gracefully, or even growing old.
Simple electric cars can't come fast enough, but you can trust the German manufacturers to design them in such a way that the body has to be removed to fix a motor. "We've cast the motor into the same casing as the shock absorber, it improves aerodynamic efficiency at 170mph by 0.003%". fk off.
All in the name of efficiency right? What efficiency? Passing one irrelevant test?
Pretty much no one wants EV though^ other than the company car drivers maxing out low bik. When it rises as it must surely even less demand. Simple electric cars can't come fast enough, but you can trust the German manufacturers to design them in such a way that the body has to be removed to fix a motor. "We've cast the motor into the same casing as the shock absorber, it improves aerodynamic efficiency at 170mph by 0.003%". f
k off. All in the name of efficiency right? What efficiency? Passing one irrelevant test?
Before the pedants jump in, a 50% increase in sales or whatever is still f
k all sales. TX.
^In the UK.
ghost83 said:
Not for me! The c63 should be a v8
Because that is what its been for precisely 13 years, as traditions go its not really up there is it.What about the M3, should that be a V8, or a six, or a four ? Its great grandad the 190 Cosworth had a four cylinder engine yet that gets spoken of in hushed reverence.
Mercedes are innovating based on the prevailing conditions, what folk think something should be because the last two versions have been doesn't enter into it, its easy to see how religions start and how people go on about not being able to ever change stuff called amendments.
If it was left to the punters we would still be riding horses.
off_again said:
I am not criticizing peoples opinions, as its a personal or emotional thing. But a C63S owner here....
Got to think about volumes and what can they make money on. I cant find any accurate numbers on the number of C63's sold across its lifespan, but its a niche car at best. The market for a $75k small saloon is small, and when you factor in the 'out of the door' price, most are on the thick end of $85k - you have a small volume seller worldwide.
With the ever increasing pressure on emissions and MPG, they have to do something. As impressive the C63S can be, it will struggle to get more than 22MPG in average use. You can see more on a consistent run, but the very best I ever saw on a trip was 26MPG! This is not great and when you factor in everyday life, you are going to get 18-20MPG. When we think about the coming rules, regulations and potential fines to manufacturers, this is a big factor.
The V8TT is a great engine and I will miss it. But buyers are getting thinner on the ground and are expecting different things. SUV's, EV's, Screens, technology, convenience and ultimately economy. Think about the options for the engine though? The current W205 is 6 years old - could they really improve the economy and emissions? How much of a stand-out will be be in 2027, when the adoption of EV's is 6 years down the line, are customers really going to buy a big noisy and thirsty engine?
And finally, BMW M sells more than AMG worldwide. Both 'brands' are more diluted than ever before, but its an opportunity for both to make money, they are businesses after all. Maybe AMG are trying to jump ahead of BMW M here and are trying to prep themselves for the future? The refresh cycle for Mercedes is pretty steady. Its the W206 model next, but in 2022 for the AMG models. Other V8TT models will persist for a while - G, GLC, AMG GT, GLE etc - all have just been refreshed, so expect them to be around for another 2-3 years minimum.
Taking a look at Daimler's annual report for 2019 (ignoring 2020 as sales were impacted by the pandemic) Got to think about volumes and what can they make money on. I cant find any accurate numbers on the number of C63's sold across its lifespan, but its a niche car at best. The market for a $75k small saloon is small, and when you factor in the 'out of the door' price, most are on the thick end of $85k - you have a small volume seller worldwide.
With the ever increasing pressure on emissions and MPG, they have to do something. As impressive the C63S can be, it will struggle to get more than 22MPG in average use. You can see more on a consistent run, but the very best I ever saw on a trip was 26MPG! This is not great and when you factor in everyday life, you are going to get 18-20MPG. When we think about the coming rules, regulations and potential fines to manufacturers, this is a big factor.
The V8TT is a great engine and I will miss it. But buyers are getting thinner on the ground and are expecting different things. SUV's, EV's, Screens, technology, convenience and ultimately economy. Think about the options for the engine though? The current W205 is 6 years old - could they really improve the economy and emissions? How much of a stand-out will be be in 2027, when the adoption of EV's is 6 years down the line, are customers really going to buy a big noisy and thirsty engine?
And finally, BMW M sells more than AMG worldwide. Both 'brands' are more diluted than ever before, but its an opportunity for both to make money, they are businesses after all. Maybe AMG are trying to jump ahead of BMW M here and are trying to prep themselves for the future? The refresh cycle for Mercedes is pretty steady. Its the W206 model next, but in 2022 for the AMG models. Other V8TT models will persist for a while - G, GLC, AMG GT, GLE etc - all have just been refreshed, so expect them to be around for another 2-3 years minimum.
In 2019, MB sold a total of 439,600 C-class cars worldwide (sedans, wagons, coupes and convertibles) - there is no breakdown given by model, but likely to be the case that C63 is indeed a niche model in the scheme of things. An important & profitable "halo" model to boost the image of the C-class, so that those driving a company issued C220d AMG Line with an AMG flat bottomed steering wheel can feel great even though they don't have the C63 AMG itself.
Consumer demand is shifting from saloons to crossovers/SUVs etc, so C-class sales overall are likely to continue to drop year on year.
The C-class made up 18% of MB sales in 2019. Contrast this with all of their SUVs (which include GLA/GLB) and that represented 33% of MB sales in 2019.
Even if we look at the 2020 report to see the makeup of MB sales, C-classes were just 15% of MB sales in 2020, but SUVs represented 42% of MB sales in 2020.
The biggest market for MB in 2020 was China, with 36% of unit sales. The demands of Chinese consumers and the rules within the Chinese market will strongly influence what they develop.
Furthermore, the 2020 report also states "In 2021, we will also begin using the CO2 emissions of our total passenger new car fleet in Europe (European Union, Norway and Iceland) as a key performance indicator in order to take the increased importance of the indicator — in particular with respect to sustainability — into account in the controlling of the Group."
Also in their report,
"Our 'Ambition 2039' strategy for Mercedes-Benz Cars clearly demonstrates our commitment to climate protection. Our goal here is to become CO2-neutral by 2039. More specifically, this means we plan to achieve CO2-neutral production at our own car plants from 2022, have plug-in hybrids and all-electric drive systems account for more than 50% of our portfolio by 2030, and offer a CO2-neutral new car fleet to our customers within less than three product life cycles.
In addition, Mercedes AMG, Mercedes-Maybach and the G-Class will also be electrified. In this way we plan to offer more than 40 plug-in hybrid and purely battery-electric models by 2030."
They have laid out their long term commercial strategy and are simply executing it, even if to many of us petrol heads, a top of the range high performance AMG C-class should only come with a gas guzzling high emissions V8 engine.
https://www.daimler.com/documents/investors/report...
https://www.daimler.com/documents/investors/report...
Twinair said:
I’ve owned 2 C63’s of the M156 6.2 variety. And I’ve owned an A45. I did around 25k miles in each one. I drove them on the same roads, so, back to back I know the detailed differences. I most loved getting 7mpg out of the ‘63 on a 20-30 mile blast. On the same route in the ‘45, it always felt special. I wouldn’t say never for a PHEVAMG - but it’s probably never. I’m glad I had mine in the moment. I’m glad I now have an M2C - manual. I don’t like BEV’s, I’ve driven a lot of them - Tesla & the BMW i3 mostly. I like things that are engineered & hewn from a diverse range of materials. I don’t like software updates, screens in the dash & electric motors. My opinions won’t make a jot of difference, BEV’s are coming as it’s a political agenda. I don’t like my hobby being constrained by politics. In the free world - everyone has their freedoms - I want to keep mine. But I won’t be able to. Flame away...
No flame from me - I think its a well balanced view on things! I am glad I bought my C63S and its given a lot of pleasure over the near 3 years I have had it. It has always been something special. But you raise an interesting point though - the market is moving and changing pretty rapidly though. Car buyers in 10 - 15 years will absolutely demand something different. We are seeing this now and the shift is pretty rapid. BMW M2/3/4 cars were and are the enthusiasts choice, but can even they justify them in 10 years time? Will we be able to get a mix of options from several manufacturers for driver focused cars? Or will everything be on some sort of subscription basis and EV powered? Who knows, but one thing is certain - get your fix now, scratch that itch, buy that car; we might not have the opportunity in the coming decades!
Give me a Hammer please! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MzqNn8kJqQ&ab...
raspy said:
Taking a look at Daimler's annual report for 2019
Also in their report,
"Our 'Ambition 2039' strategy for Mercedes-Benz Cars clearly demonstrates our commitment to climate protection. Our goal here is to become CO2-neutral by 2039. More specifically, this means we plan to achieve CO2-neutral production at our own car plants from 2022, have plug-in hybrids and all-electric drive systems account for more than 50% of our portfolio by 2030,
pdf
Also in their report, Also in their report,
"Our 'Ambition 2039' strategy for Mercedes-Benz Cars clearly demonstrates our commitment to climate protection. Our goal here is to become CO2-neutral by 2039. More specifically, this means we plan to achieve CO2-neutral production at our own car plants from 2022, have plug-in hybrids and all-electric drive systems account for more than 50% of our portfolio by 2030,
https://www.daimler.com/documents/investors/report...
Note 50% of our portfolio, not sales by volume or by value, just more virtue signalling that makes them feel like good investors....
As long as hybrids exist, performance and mpg numbers will be fiddled and cheated. Someone needs to get a grip and make the range and performance numbers stack up with the way cars are actually used in the real world. Full tank to empty with a 20 mile contribution from the grid will be holding up the mirror for all to see that it’s all been smoke and mirrors.
Having a hybrid for a tax benefit is not helping the planet one iota, costing more in resources to make than it possibly saves against a “simpler” all petroleum or all electric equivalent
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