RE: New Mercedes-AMG C63 confirmed as 650hp hybrid

[AmyRichardson]

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-8...

We need to keep in mind that that’s an opinion survey; if the same questions had been asked just five years before the numbers probably would have run the other way. People’s opinions & understandings shift, there’ll be some bittereinders - but then there always are.

BEV+PHEV going from 2.3% of all sales to 8.2% in a single year, now that is something...

[Uncle John]

Max_Torque said:

Clivey said:

What I strongly disagree with though is having choices arbitrarily removed via government dictat, especially when the policies are deeply flawed.

do you smoke?

How do you feel about someone smoking and then blowing smoke in your and your families faces because "choices".

The comparison is deliberate. Pretty soon i think wanton automotive consumption is going to go the way of smoking. You might not like it, you might get angry, but hey, the world changes eh

You also seem to believe that electricification has no benefit, either in reality or in policy, which is fine, that's your opinion. It's b*ll*cks of course, The reason on the real world say a prius does around 60mpg on average and a typical 1.8l non hybrid about 45mpg is because hybridisation DOES reduce consumption and emissions (and especially emisisons where you really don't want them, ie in our towns and cites where we all live and work)

The EV i've driven for the last 5 years has averaged 180 mpg (equivalent) over that period, and it's driven much harder than most. The FACT is, the mass uptake of electricification is the best option we have to massively reduce our private car energy consumption. In the UK, for a typical useage, swapping to an EV means a 2.6 to 2.8 times reduction in total energy consumption for an IDENTICAL driving use and style over 100,000 miles. (and no, the 1st owner doesn't need to do all 100,000 miles themselves, because we don't scrap our cars at the point the 1st owner sells them)

So i'm going to (respectfully) suggest that today, those opinions makes you sound to a lot of the population like a dinosaur, and in about 5 years i suspect people who can't change because "choices" will simply be taxed or legislated off the road instead.

Enjoy it whilst you can.........

But but..Max Torque, I thought you were one of us!

[herebebeasties]

449 horses from 2.0 litres in a production engine with (presumably) normal service intervals is nothing short of astonishing.
I'm sure the rest of it will be an absolute technical tour de force, too.
From a technical standpoint, it's amazing.

However... Why? It'll presumably weigh more than a V8 would, in a car that's no bantamweight to start with. If it's less than two tonnes with some options on it, I'll be suprised. At which point, why not just go full electric? As others have pointed out, the b0rkage that will start from five to ten years old will be staggeringly expensive to fix. I don't see this set of performance hybrids that is coming along as a good answer to almost any question, really. Better charging infrastructure seems demanded and inevitable now. I think this is a hedging of bets from four or five years ago that is now coming to market, but it's on the wrong side of the bet now.

[Walter Sobchak]

Mercedes has ditched the V8 in favour of a 4 cylinder in the C63?, honestly what’s the point in buying one!, nothing against the 4 cylinder engine in its own right I’m sure it’s very capable but an AMG should be a loud and unruly V8.
A 4 cylinder hybrid!, no thanks I’d rather just cut out this twilight era of ICE and buy a Tesla, it’ll be quicker and probably will sound better too!, and keep a nice 6.2 5.5 Kompressor or 5.5 bi turbo AMG.
Obviously m sure it will sell and I’m not it’s target audience as I’m not looking to spend that kind of money on a car but it still feels a bit underwhelming to me.

Edited by Walter Sobchak on Thursday 1st April 18:33

[blue al]

AmyRichardson said:

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-8...

We need to keep in mind that that’s an opinion survey; if the same questions had been asked just five years before the numbers probably would have run the other way. People’s opinions & understandings shift, there’ll be some bittereinders - but then there always are.

BEV+PHEV going from 2.3% of all sales to 8.2% in a single year, now that is something...

Or ...less cars are being sold, of those a higher proportion of electric sales for the more expensive end of the market, so more cars to company directors, or employees looking for a BIK saving,

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55551315

How many private buyers will want to wait 4 or more years to see a cash saving against ice equivalent.

How much income/tax saved for higher earners is being spent in different non-sustainable ways ? Like buying a sports car for the weekend

[Reciprocating mass]

I’m 45 had the best of years ragging around in ice cars, spending hours getting coverd in st fixing them and farting around with them,
Been a boy racer, been to loads of car meets, had some awesome fun over the years, I think I’m gonna be quite happy to give up wasting money on cars when the time comes,
Buy the cheapest milk float transport,
And leave it all to the touchscreen generation to get excited over it, I’ll find something more interesting to waste my money on, probably a more expensive mountain bike and more fishing gear might even take up golf

[antspants]

Feels like a compromise that will be old fashioned within a couple of years with the rate of progress.

Having owned an E63 I'd consider myself an AMG fan and target market, but it doesn't appeal. If they needed a stop gap before going full EV then an upgrade on the E53 engine could have been more interesting.

But whilst they may alienate some of their traditional buyers, I think they'll more than make up for it with company car drivers now able to justify choosing a C'63'.

12 months ago I wouldn't have considered an EV, but times change and to my surprise I found the Hyundai EV6 article far more interesting than this. Could definitely see myself with 2 cars in future, a company EV and something that puts a smile on my face when I start it up.

[leef44]

Walter Sobchak said:

Mercedes has ditched the V8 in favour of a 4 cylinder in the C63?, honestly what’s the point in buying one!, nothing against the 4 cylinder engine in its own right I’m sure it’s very capable but an AMG should be a loud and unruly V8.
A 4 cylinder hybrid!, no thanks I’d rather just cut out this twilight era of ICE and buy a Tesla, it’ll be quicker and probably will sound better too!, and keep a nice 6.2 5.5 Kompressor or 5.5 bi turbo AMG.
Obviously m sure it will sell and I’m not it’s target audience as I’m not looking to spend that kind of money on a car but it still feels a bit underwhelming to me.

Edited by Walter Sobchak on Thursday 1st April 18:33

Nah! I'm holding out for the 1 litre 3 cylinder SL73

ETA: with four exhaust pipes

[Jaroon]

OK I'm not excited but don't agree with some suggestions that they drop it and go full electric. I hope there will be a, not unusual) u turn and hybrids will have a place and this is a step towards making the case.

As ICE engines by definition are at their pinnacle of development and bio fuel continues to evolve plus EV will really struggle to be a complete solution due infrastructure, I'll go out on a limb and say I'm interested and not crying into my apron, which needs a wash anyway.

[anonymous-user]

Uncle John said:

Max_Torque said:

Clivey said:

What I strongly disagree with though is having choices arbitrarily removed via government dictat, especially when the policies are deeply flawed.

do you smoke?

How do you feel about someone smoking and then blowing smoke in your and your families faces because "choices".

The comparison is deliberate. Pretty soon i think wanton automotive consumption is going to go the way of smoking. You might not like it, you might get angry, but hey, the world changes eh

You also seem to believe that electricification has no benefit, either in reality or in policy, which is fine, that's your opinion. It's b*ll*cks of course, The reason on the real world say a prius does around 60mpg on average and a typical 1.8l non hybrid about 45mpg is because hybridisation DOES reduce consumption and emissions (and especially emisisons where you really don't want them, ie in our towns and cites where we all live and work)

The EV i've driven for the last 5 years has averaged 180 mpg (equivalent) over that period, and it's driven much harder than most. The FACT is, the mass uptake of electricification is the best option we have to massively reduce our private car energy consumption. In the UK, for a typical useage, swapping to an EV means a 2.6 to 2.8 times reduction in total energy consumption for an IDENTICAL driving use and style over 100,000 miles. (and no, the 1st owner doesn't need to do all 100,000 miles themselves, because we don't scrap our cars at the point the 1st owner sells them)

So i'm going to (respectfully) suggest that today, those opinions makes you sound to a lot of the population like a dinosaur, and in about 5 years i suspect people who can't change because "choices" will simply be taxed or legislated off the road instead.

Enjoy it whilst you can.........

But but..Max Torque, I thought you were one of us!

I am a massive petrolhead. Always have been always will be. I built my first "car" when i was 14 out of scrap (i'm not joking here!) and i've worked on some of the best performance cars ever made, like the Focus RS (mk1), Mclaren P1 and now the T.50.

BUT.

We have to be realistic. The world has changed. Being able to simply go out and have our fun at the expense of consumption and emissions is no longer viable. Most people are NOT petrolheads, when it comes to a vote, we will loose (if we get heard at all) our fun cars will simply get banned and that,will be that.

HOWEVER

There is a glimmer of light ahead. What we need to do is get the "masses" the non car people into EVs are quickly as we can. Because when 99.9% of people drive an EV, the Government will have no interest in the remaining drivers of "polluting dinosaur" cars! Just like today it is compeltely possible and legal to drive for fun a steam traction engine on the road, when everyone is zipping around in their clean, quiet, high efficiency bubble, i think we, the minority, will be left alone to enjoy our 'old fashioned' dino-powered fun!

What won't help is stuck in the mud car nuts digging their heals in, with stupid statements like "you'll have to drag the keys to my V8 out of my cold dead hands" or "EVs aren't any better than ICE". Neither is true, and neither will make any difference what-so-ever to the final outcome!

[Clivey]

Max_Torque said:

I am a massive petrolhead. Always have been always will be. I built my first "car" when i was 14 out of scrap (i'm not joking here!) and i've worked on some of the best performance cars ever made, like the Focus RS (mk1), Mclaren P1 and now the T.50.

BUT.

We have to be realistic. The world has changed. Being able to simply go out and have our fun at the expense of consumption and emissions is no longer viable. Most people are NOT petrolheads, when it comes to a vote, we will loose (if we get heard at all) our fun cars will simply get banned and that,will be that.

HOWEVER

There is a glimmer of light ahead. What we need to do is get the "masses" the non car people into EVs are quickly as we can. Because when 99.9% of people drive an EV, the Government will have no interest in the remaining drivers of "polluting dinosaur" cars! Just like today it is compeltely possible and legal to drive for fun a steam traction engine on the road, when everyone is zipping around in their clean, quiet, high efficiency bubble, i think we, the minority, will be left alone to enjoy our 'old fashioned' dino-powered fun!

What won't help is stuck in the mud car nuts digging their heals in, with stupid statements like "you'll have to drag the keys to my V8 out of my cold dead hands" or "EVs aren't any better than ICE". Neither is true, and neither will make any difference what-so-ever to the final outcome!

The majority of the general public don't know anything about cars (hence Nissan Jukes being popular) or really care how their car is powered as long as it doesn't inconvenience them. They'll switch to EVs naturally as battery technology improves, EVs become cheaper to buy and the savings become obvious...well, until the government introduces road pricing to make-up for lost fuel tax, anyway.

If we can't make any difference to the final outcome, why should we immediately give-up our ICE cars? Surely as long as we're not somehow dictating that the masses also drive ICE cars then it won't matter because the tiny amount of pollution us 0.01% are going to create will be insignificant, just as the pollution from traction engines is today?

[thenobbler]

I own a Jag i-Pace (lovely thing over an 80 mile round trip) and an SL63 AMG. The electric car is there because tax breaks (company car with 0% BIK). The 577 hp drop top is there for holidays and longer distances...and mainly for theatre. No way I’d be buying a four pot AMG with way more power than I need for the 50-100 blast when the road opens up/someone pulls over because they want to hear the thunder.

An AMG (for me) is about sense of occasion, not killing myself by driving at twice the legal limit. Simples...

[anonymous-user]

Clivey said:

If we can't make any difference to the final outcome, why should we immediately give-up our ICE cars?

sorry to snip your post but i wanted to highlight the, er, bit i have highlighted!

We are not "immediately" givig up anything.

New, pure ICE vehicles are going to be banned from sale in 9 years. You can today still buy many, mnay mnay more pure ICE passenger cars of any and every type than hybrid or pure EV type.

However, social and market forces are changing. Western manufacturers are realising that they can no longer simply sell massively consumptive and highly polluting vehicles when there is a better and proven alternative. If there wasn't pressure on the manufacturers then AMG would certainly have a large capacity N/A engine in their cars today. But there is, and they don't.

I also not really sure why people are that bothered in such a car. An AMG is a refined, large, bulky, cumbersome device, that goes well in a straight line and has easy access to plenty of performance at low speeds. Hmm, sounds like a heavily hybridised ICE or an EV to me........


And lets face it, that V8 roar, those stupid noisy tailpipes, the owner might think "wow, they sound so cool" but trust me, everyone you pass as you rocket away from the lights is thinking "cock".............

[PhantomPH]

Walter Sobchak said:

...an AMG should be a loud and unruly V8.

Why? You've missed adding in "in my opinion".

How about people accept that things move on and it's not always worse (although I happily admit, in this instance...).

AMG really used to be about putting far too much power in cars that were not designed to handle it out the box. Making hot rods out of mundane Mercedes cars. They used the best tool for the job at the time. So it used to be a hulking V8. That got replaced with a smaller V8. Now it's a 4-cyl hybrid...but with the most power ever in a C63. THAT is AMG's USP and always has been.

People are confusing the journey with the destination and AMG's destination has always been huge power.

[Terminator X]

Max_Torque said:

Clivey said:

What I strongly disagree with though is having choices arbitrarily removed via government dictat, especially when the policies are deeply flawed.

do you smoke?

How do you feel about someone smoking and then blowing smoke in your and your families faces because "choices".

The comparison is deliberate. Pretty soon i think wanton automotive consumption is going to go the way of smoking. You might not like it, you might get angry, but hey, the world changes eh

You also seem to believe that electricification has no benefit, either in reality or in policy, which is fine, that's your opinion. It's b*ll*cks of course, The reason on the real world say a prius does around 60mpg on average and a typical 1.8l non hybrid about 45mpg is because hybridisation DOES reduce consumption and emissions (and especially emisisons where you really don't want them, ie in our towns and cites where we all live and work)

The EV i've driven for the last 5 years has averaged 180 mpg (equivalent) over that period, and it's driven much harder than most. The FACT is, the mass uptake of electricification is the best option we have to massively reduce our private car energy consumption. In the UK, for a typical useage, swapping to an EV means a 2.6 to 2.8 times reduction in total energy consumption for an IDENTICAL driving use and style over 100,000 miles. (and no, the 1st owner doesn't need to do all 100,000 miles themselves, because we don't scrap our cars at the point the 1st owner sells them)

So i'm going to (respectfully) suggest that today, those opinions makes you sound to a lot of the population like a dinosaur, and in about 5 years i suspect people who can't change because "choices" will simply be taxed or legislated off the road instead.

Enjoy it whilst you can.........

The "non smokers" can choke on my big V8 bought the day before ICE is outlawed.

TX.

[juice]

Max_Torque said:

And lets face it, that V8 roar, those stupid noisy tailpipes, the owner might think "wow, they sound so cool" but trust me, everyone you pass as you rocket away from the lights is thinking "cock".............

I'm a Cock. Long may it continue.

You sound boring.

[ZX10R NIN]

juice said:

Max_Torque said:

And lets face it, that V8 roar, those stupid noisy tailpipes, the owner might think "wow, they sound so cool" but trust me, everyone you pass as you rocket away from the lights is thinking "cock".............

I'm a Cock. Long may it continue.

You sound boring.

Another cock here & I like hearing an exhaust note be it 4/5/6/8/10/12 cylinders.

[Tim bo]

ZX10R NIN said:

juice said:

Max_Torque said:

And lets face it, that V8 roar, those stupid noisy tailpipes, the owner might think "wow, they sound so cool" but trust me, everyone you pass as you rocket away from the lights is thinking "cock".............

I'm a Cock. Long may it continue.

You sound boring.

Another cock here & I like hearing an exhaust note be it 4/5/6/8/10/12 cylinders.

... and another cock.

I love it when a meaty V8 pulls away from the lights.

[leef44]

Tim bo said:

ZX10R NIN said:

juice said:

Max_Torque said:

And lets face it, that V8 roar, those stupid noisy tailpipes, the owner might think "wow, they sound so cool" but trust me, everyone you pass as you rocket away from the lights is thinking "cock".............

I'm a Cock. Long may it continue.

You sound boring.

Another cock here & I like hearing an exhaust note be it 4/5/6/8/10/12 cylinders.

... and another cock.

I love it when a meaty V8 pulls away from the lights.

Looks like I will join the cock forum as I still get a tingle down the spine driving my V8 and when a V8 rumbles by

[hungry_hog]

I wonder if Mercedes will do an "R" version later in limited numbers with a larger engine (V6 or V8), and charge quite a lot more for it

I guess positioning wise it may not make sense though...as you start to get into S class / SL money