What old performance car compares...
Discussion
havoc said:
MC Bodge said:
The ride from that Civic looked horrendous. Why is it so harshly damped?
Modern performance car. TADTS. FK8 apparently has a really good ride, according to journos... 
(Seriously...the latest NISMO GTR apparently doesn't have any suspension...ridiculously stiff)
It was interesting that he said that Touring Cars didn't hop and skip like that Civic. As he said, too much rebound results in the suspension packing down and ceasing to function as suspension over a series of bumps.
The Civc's +R? track setting would presumably be horrible on an extended track session, and terrible on the road.
MC Bodge said:
ThisInJapanese said:
Clearly they are reading this thread at 5th Gear!!
https://youtu.be/t3Q7fjTGc-w
CTR Vs NSX around Castle Coombe
The ride from that Civic looked horrendous. Why is it so harshly damped?https://youtu.be/t3Q7fjTGc-w
CTR Vs NSX around Castle Coombe
I'd love to try an old NSX.
The big issue is that you can't set the steering to one mode and the suspension to another mode.
Boobonman said:
...to your modern everyday car in terms of performance?
Was thinking about this the other night, my daily driver E220d has very similar performance to one of my childhood heroes, the Sierra Cosworth.
0-60 under 7 seconds, 150mph flat out.
Doubt very much that the Sierra would do 50mpg but don't doubt that it would probably be a whole lot more fun
I remember when they timed the Cosworth round Castle Combe in the 80sWas thinking about this the other night, my daily driver E220d has very similar performance to one of my childhood heroes, the Sierra Cosworth.
0-60 under 7 seconds, 150mph flat out.
Doubt very much that the Sierra would do 50mpg but don't doubt that it would probably be a whole lot more fun
”.....a whisker slower than an M5 or 911 Carrera - cars that cost almost twice as much. Faster than a 944 Turbo, a Renault GTA, a Lotus Esprit Turbo......”
Shows how engines, brakes,tyres and suspension have come on that you could throw a standard Mercedes diesel saloon into that collection.
Plus they’d all be left looking at the back of a Fiesta ST no doubt!
s m said:
I remember when they timed the Cosworth round Castle Combe in the 80s
”.....a whisker slower than an M5 or 911 Carrera - cars that cost almost twice as much. Faster than a 944 Turbo, a Renault GTA, a Lotus Esprit Turbo......”
Shows how engines, brakes,tyres and suspension have come on that you could throw a standard Mercedes diesel saloon into that collection.
Plus they’d all be left looking at the back of a Fiesta ST no doubt!
I’d love a lotus Esprit or a sorted 944 Turbo S lovely cars ”.....a whisker slower than an M5 or 911 Carrera - cars that cost almost twice as much. Faster than a 944 Turbo, a Renault GTA, a Lotus Esprit Turbo......”
Shows how engines, brakes,tyres and suspension have come on that you could throw a standard Mercedes diesel saloon into that collection.
Plus they’d all be left looking at the back of a Fiesta ST no doubt!
Boobonman said:
...to your modern everyday car in terms of performance?
Something we say all the time actually, as we had MR2s when we were young and now the E Class cabrio and even the R Class have the same 0-60 times. Then if you take the C Class estate, my old TVR 350i had similar performance !! Madness how quickly they go these days.MC Bodge said:
havoc said:
MC Bodge said:
The ride from that Civic looked horrendous. Why is it so harshly damped?
Modern performance car. TADTS. FK8 apparently has a really good ride, according to journos... (Seriously...the latest NISMO GTR apparently doesn't have any suspension...ridiculously stiff)
It was interesting that he said that Touring Cars didn't hop and skip like that Civic. As he said, too much rebound results in the suspension packing down and ceasing to function as suspension over a series of bumps.
The Civc's +R? track setting would presumably be horrible on an extended track session, and terrible on the road.
- FK8 has multi-mode dampers*, which as the springs are fixed-rate means you've got 3 compromises for the price of 1.
- Touring cars have fully-adjustables which are set-up specifically for each circuit, and generally speaking are (a) a lot more expensive; and (b) have a narrower operating window anyway as the car only has one job to do.
Drove an i30N fastback with the adaptive dampers (note this is pitched as an everyday hot-hatch, not a hardcore one), and in the softest mode it felt a little jouncy, the middle mode was nicely tied-down but almost as stiff as my FD2 (with Koni rear dampers) and with a more brittle secondary ride, and the 'track' mode was ridiculous. Walked away...no reason for an 'everyday' road car to be that stiff.
* An engineering solution, built down to a price in most cases, to accommodate the styling boys requirement for the car to be fitted with ever-bigger wheels and ever-thinner sidewalls, the marketing boys desire for ever-quicker lap-times and 0-60 times and the ride-and-handling requirement for it to be at least marginally habitable on a long-journey.
s m said:
I remember when they timed the Cosworth round Castle Combe in the 80s
”.....a whisker slower than an M5 or 911 Carrera - cars that cost almost twice as much. Faster than a 944 Turbo, a Renault GTA, a Lotus Esprit Turbo......”
Shows how engines, brakes,tyres and suspension have come on that you could throw a standard Mercedes diesel saloon into that collection.
Plus they’d all be left looking at the back of a Fiesta ST no doubt!
Was the 944 turbo the 220 bhp model? I'd be surprised if it was the 250 bhp version with the bigger brakes and LSD fitted as standard. As for the Fiesta ST, I could see one still being there up to around 130 mph. But after that they seem to run out of steam.”.....a whisker slower than an M5 or 911 Carrera - cars that cost almost twice as much. Faster than a 944 Turbo, a Renault GTA, a Lotus Esprit Turbo......”
Shows how engines, brakes,tyres and suspension have come on that you could throw a standard Mercedes diesel saloon into that collection.
Plus they’d all be left looking at the back of a Fiesta ST no doubt!
blade7 said:
s m said:
I remember when they timed the Cosworth round Castle Combe in the 80s
”.....a whisker slower than an M5 or 911 Carrera - cars that cost almost twice as much. Faster than a 944 Turbo, a Renault GTA, a Lotus Esprit Turbo......”
Shows how engines, brakes,tyres and suspension have come on that you could throw a standard Mercedes diesel saloon into that collection.
Plus they’d all be left looking at the back of a Fiesta ST no doubt!
Was the 944 turbo the 220 bhp model? I'd be surprised if it was the 250 bhp version with the bigger brakes and LSD fitted as standard. As for the Fiesta ST, I could see one still being there up to around 130 mph. But after that they seem to run out of steam.”.....a whisker slower than an M5 or 911 Carrera - cars that cost almost twice as much. Faster than a 944 Turbo, a Renault GTA, a Lotus Esprit Turbo......”
Shows how engines, brakes,tyres and suspension have come on that you could throw a standard Mercedes diesel saloon into that collection.
Plus they’d all be left looking at the back of a Fiesta ST no doubt!
It was just on the track - none of them would be getting near Vmax at Combe
havoc said:
Drove an i30N fastback with the adaptive dampers (note this is pitched as an everyday hot-hatch, not a hardcore one), and in the softest mode it felt a little jouncy, the middle mode was nicely tied-down but almost as stiff as my FD2 (with Koni rear dampers) and with a more brittle secondary ride, and the 'track' mode was ridiculous. Walked away...no reason for an 'everyday' road car to be that stiff.
Talking of old vs new, old 328i vs i30N compared for acceleration and brakinghttps://youtu.be/kABbEVlf_PQ
s m said:
Talking of old vs new, old 328i vs i30N compared for acceleration and braking
https://youtu.be/kABbEVlf_PQ
Well, 328 with 330 power...https://youtu.be/kABbEVlf_PQ
Still impressed at how honest it keeps the i30.
Boobonman said:
...to your modern everyday car in terms of performance?
Was thinking about this the other night, my daily driver E220d has very similar performance to one of my childhood heroes, the Sierra Cosworth.
0-60 under 7 seconds, 150mph flat out.
Doubt very much that the Sierra would do 50mpg but don't doubt that it would probably be a whole lot more fun
My daily is a 55 plate BMW 330i, so not even that modern! Was thinking about this the other night, my daily driver E220d has very similar performance to one of my childhood heroes, the Sierra Cosworth.
0-60 under 7 seconds, 150mph flat out.
Doubt very much that the Sierra would do 50mpg but don't doubt that it would probably be a whole lot more fun
But BMW claim 0-62 in 6.3 seconds so noticeably quicker than a Sierra Cosworth. And based on my experience driving a mate's Cosworth on a track day at Silverstone my BMW has a much better power-train than the on or off boost Cosworth.
We both preferred his XR4i even if it was a bit slower, and it didn't suffer head gasket failure like the Cosworth - they say you shouldn't meet your heroes!
havoc said:
s m said:
Talking of old vs new, old 328i vs i30N compared for acceleration and braking
https://youtu.be/kABbEVlf_PQ
Well, 328 with 330 power...https://youtu.be/kABbEVlf_PQ
Still impressed at how honest it keeps the i30.
Mr Tidy said:
Boobonman said:
...to your modern everyday car in terms of performance?
Was thinking about this the other night, my daily driver E220d has very similar performance to one of my childhood heroes, the Sierra Cosworth.
0-60 under 7 seconds, 150mph flat out.
Doubt very much that the Sierra would do 50mpg but don't doubt that it would probably be a whole lot more fun
My daily is a 55 plate BMW 330i, so not even that modern! Was thinking about this the other night, my daily driver E220d has very similar performance to one of my childhood heroes, the Sierra Cosworth.
0-60 under 7 seconds, 150mph flat out.
Doubt very much that the Sierra would do 50mpg but don't doubt that it would probably be a whole lot more fun
But BMW claim 0-62 in 6.3 seconds so noticeably quicker than a Sierra Cosworth. And based on my experience driving a mate's Cosworth on a track day at Silverstone my BMW has a much better power-train than the on or off boost Cosworth.
The relentless march of progress!
s m said:
So based on that, a late 80s Lotus Esprit Turbo, 944 Turbo and Renault GTA would be trailing your 2005 4-door BMW on a track.... and you’d be breathing hard on the coattails of or matching an E28 M5 and 911 Carrera
The relentless march of progress!
If you read my post you will see I didn't say that, but I'm sure a standard Sierra Cosworth wouldn't have kept up with my 330i driven by me on a track!The relentless march of progress!
My Z4M Coupe might have given an E28 M5 a hard time though.
Depending on the engine, early Cosworths didn't put out much over 200 bhp, albeit weighing not much over a ton. But then that wasn't really the point of those engines. They were pretty conservatively boosted from the factory, so, even without hardware changes, a relatively cautious chipping would add a whole lot of power-under-the-curve (and, being 1980s turbos, a smaller actual usable bit of the curve). Add an improved intercooler, pistons, blah blah, and the numbers got very big very quickly. With linear correlation to the ability to find ditches and large trees, but it was ever thus. Yes, plenty of turbo cars could be modified, but the whaletail Cossies seemed to be designed with it in mind from the start. Especially the RS500 obviously, but that's getting a bit niche.
Mr Tidy said:
s m said:
So based on that, a late 80s Lotus Esprit Turbo, 944 Turbo and Renault GTA would be trailing your 2005 4-door BMW on a track.... and you’d be breathing hard on the coattails of or matching an E28 M5 and 911 Carrera
The relentless march of progress!
If you read my post you will see I didn't say that, but I'm sure a standard Sierra Cosworth wouldn't have kept up with my 330i driven by me on a track!The relentless march of progress!
My Z4M Coupe might have given an E28 M5 a hard time though.
So if you were ahead of something like a standard Sierra Cosworth on track you’d be level or ahead of an E28 M5, 911 Carrera .....and in front of a 944 Turbo (220) and Esprit Turbo from the 80s .......as they all posted similar times on track
We just take newer stuff for granted
Edited by s m on Monday 26th April 08:58
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