What old performance car compares...

[cerb4.5lee]

The downside of something like the 330i when compared to the Sierra Cosworth for me is how they actually feel to drive. The Cosworth will actually feel pretty quick because of it's boosty nature, whereas the 330i only really feels quick when you are at the redline(plus the 330i will be around 300kg heavier than the Cosworth as well).

For example I remember driving an E46 M3 when I had my S14a 200SX(modded to around 250bhp) and the M3 just felt heavy and not all that quick(well certainly not as quick as I was expecting) in comparison to the lighter turbo charged 200 for me.

[s m]

V8 Animal said:

I would like to drive my old Carlton GSI 24v to compare to the modern stuff again, back in the 90s proper quick car!

As above, would be behind something like Mr Tidy’s 330i now

And even further behind a modern day 330d no doubt

[KTMsm]

BGarside said:

I'd sooner drive most of these older cars than some bloated, over complicated modern bland-mobile any day.

With overcrowded roads and cameras everywhere I'd rather drive something with lower limits that is fun to drive at realistic speeds than something unusably quick.

Agreed - on an open road

The problem is that you have very few opportunities to overtake the dawdlers when you have a relatively slow car - which is why I supercharged my MX5

[Welshbeef]

s m said:

V8 Animal said:

I would like to drive my old Carlton GSI 24v to compare to the modern stuff again, back in the 90s proper quick car!

As above, would be behind something like Mr Tidy’s 330i now

And even further behind a modern day 330d no doubt

Given the original 184bhp 2.9ltr 330d I’d say that would be likely even more of a competition.

Let alone the 204 bhp 330d E46.

Then the 231bhp 330d 6.8 seconds and a 155mph car

Then beyond that they are materially quicker

[MC Bodge]

It's interesting to see how "Focussed" some of the modern cars have become on drag or track performance.

Unless you are racing, it really doesn't matter what the relative performance/lap time of your vehicle is.

It is what you do with it and how much you enjoy it that matters. It's unlikely that you'll be wringing out the last ounce of performance on the road, even if many newer cars are capable of operating well above the road threshold. I'm not sure that the R+ mode in that Civic Type R is of much use even on a track, it would be very unpleasant.

I may be out of touch, but I like a car that absorbs bumps, has some feel/feedback, holds a line around a bumpy corner and keeps its tyres in contact with the ground.

That NSX-R or the old tuned 328 interests me far more than the newer cars.

[cerb4.5lee]

Welshbeef said:

s m said:

V8 Animal said:

I would like to drive my old Carlton GSI 24v to compare to the modern stuff again, back in the 90s proper quick car!

As above, would be behind something like Mr Tidy’s 330i now

And even further behind a modern day 330d no doubt

Given the original 184bhp 2.9ltr 330d I’d say that would be likely even more of a competition.

Let alone the 204 bhp 330d E46.

Then the 231bhp 330d 6.8 seconds and a 155mph car

Then beyond that they are materially quicker

I've had both a 2006 330d and a 2006 330i and the 330d made the 330i feel pretty gutless in comparison to me. The current 330d would absolutely wipe the floor with the old NA 330i for definite performance wise.

I like to call myself a petrolhead but I don't half appreciate what some of the performance diesels can do though for sure. Especially when it comes to daily driving I reckon. I certainly don't want to have to rev a car to 6600rpm(like you would in a 2006 330i) to get max power, and I much prefer the on tap performance that a torquey diesel(or turbo petrol) gives you in comparison.

I'm happy enough to rev out a nice NA petrol engine in a weekend or occasional car though for sure.

[Welshbeef]

cerb4.5lee said:

I've had both a 2006 330d and a 2006 330i and the 330d made the 330i feel pretty gutless in comparison to me. The current 330d would absolutely wipe the floor with the old NA 330i for definite performance wise.

I like to call myself a petrolhead but I don't half appreciate what some of the performance diesels can do though for sure. Especially when it comes to daily driving I reckon. I certainly don't want to have to rev a car to 6600rpm(like you would in a 2006 330i) to get max power, and I much prefer the on tap performance that a torquey diesel(or turbo petrol) gives you in comparison.

I'm happy enough to rev out a nice NA petrol engine in a weekend or occasional car though for sure.

The current 330d on hyper eco pro and that lovely 8 speed can do insanely high mpg. Making IMHO the 320d utterly redundant

[otolith]

MC Bodge said:

It is what you do with it and how much you enjoy it that matters. It's unlikely that you'll be wringing out the last ounce of performance on the road, even if many newer cars are capable of operating well above the road threshold. I'm not sure that the R+ mode in that Civic Type R is of much use even on a track, it would be very unpleasant.

I suspect that it was probably in that mode when it took the Nürburgring front drive record - and I also suspect that the manually adjustable Ohlins dampers on the 70k version of the Megane which took that record away from the Civic were probably set up to be somewhat less comfortable than you would want for a road car.

People have been saying for a long time that developing cars to give marketing an impressive Nürburgring time results in less than optimal setups for the British roads.

[cerb4.5lee]

Welshbeef said:

The current 330d on hyper eco pro and that lovely 8 speed can do insanely high mpg. Making IMHO the 320d utterly redundant

Yes and I agree with that too. I always prefer to go for a 6 cylinder diesel engine over the 4 cylinder diesel engine, and I've mentioned that a few times on here to be fair!

All I ever wanted to do with the engine in the 520d I had was smash it to pieces! I wasn't a fan of the engine at all(I did really like the car overall though).

[KTMsm]

otolith said:

People have been saying for a long time that developing cars to give marketing an impressive Nürburgring time results in less than optimal setups for the British roads.

I have adjustable suspension on my MX5 - when I took it on track I cranked them up and up and up each time providing more feel and a better experience

I then drove home - it felt like I was driving on corrugated iron !

[s m]

cerb4.5lee said:

Welshbeef said:

s m said:

V8 Animal said:

I would like to drive my old Carlton GSI 24v to compare to the modern stuff again, back in the 90s proper quick car!

As above, would be behind something like Mr Tidy’s 330i now

And even further behind a modern day 330d no doubt

Given the original 184bhp 2.9ltr 330d I’d say that would be likely even more of a competition.

Let alone the 204 bhp 330d E46.

Then the 231bhp 330d 6.8 seconds and a 155mph car

Then beyond that they are materially quicker

I've had both a 2006 330d and a 2006 330i and the 330d made the 330i feel pretty gutless in comparison to me. The current 330d would absolutely wipe the floor with the old NA 330i for definite performance wise.

I like to call myself a petrolhead but I don't half appreciate what some of the performance diesels can do though for sure. Especially when it comes to daily driving I reckon. I certainly don't want to have to rev a car to 6600rpm(like you would in a 2006 330i) to get max power, and I much prefer the on tap performance that a torquey diesel(or turbo petrol) gives you in comparison.

I'm happy enough to rev out a nice NA petrol engine in a weekend or occasional car though for sure.

Yes, I think you’d need the 330d to really show stuff like the 80s M5, 911 Carrera, Sierra Cosworth, 944 Turbo, Renault GTA and Esprit Turbo the way home on a track Lee

The 320d doesn’t quite have enough to see a real advantage.
In fact they did it in EVO a few years back with the 200bhp 1-series diesel vs the M3 of that era and the M3 was still quicker ( lighter and similar horsepower )

[MC Bodge]

otolith said:

MC Bodge said:

It is what you do with it and how much you enjoy it that matters. It's unlikely that you'll be wringing out the last ounce of performance on the road, even if many newer cars are capable of operating well above the road threshold. I'm not sure that the R+ mode in that Civic Type R is of much use even on a track, it would be very unpleasant.

I suspect that it was probably in that mode when it took the Nürburgring front drive record - and I also suspect that the manually adjustable Ohlins dampers on the 70k version of the Megane which took that record away from the Civic were probably set up to be somewhat less comfortable than you would want for a road car.

People have been saying for a long time that developing cars to give marketing an impressive Nürburgring time results in less than optimal setups for the British roads.

Somewhat less comfortable is dfferent to harsh/skipping. It does depend on the smoothness of the track, of course.

How many people are paying for this Nurburgring potential in order to use anywhere near or anything like it? Do many people use cars like the Type R Civic on track?

I was talking to a chap who attended a i30N launch event on the road. He told me that it was very stiff, and that in anything other than the softest setting, the car was harsh and unpleasant.

On another thread, you made good point:

otolith said:

Using a car like a GR Yaris to its full on the public road would look something like this;



or



Basically, loonies and car thieves.

Edited by MC Bodge on Monday 26th April 10:33

[havoc]

dvshannow said:

How about something like an Evo 6, circa 2000 , 0-60 in mid 4s and decent handling

Something like an older bmw 330i drives quite sweetly (e46 and e90) and v enjoyable but handling wise are way off pace compared with modern performance cars

Evo VI is an interesting one - about as hardcore as the 90's got, with short-enough gearing to make the stats still shine.

Modern-day you'd look at an A45 AMG, which has slightly superior performance and a lot more comfort/toys.


"handling-wise" I think you need to consider your definitions. The E46 and E90 chassis are still very good, but where things have moved on is in immediacy (less slack in steering, thinner sidewalls, quicker racks, DBW throttles giving the illusion* of more immediate response)...I don't think an F30 chassis, for example, would necessarily be any better around/over the limit, and almost certainly rides more stiffly (model-for-model)...while the new 1-series has gone FWD!


* See the 328-vs-i30N video for step-off performance

[TEKNOPUG]

s m said:

cerb4.5lee said:

Welshbeef said:

s m said:

V8 Animal said:

I would like to drive my old Carlton GSI 24v to compare to the modern stuff again, back in the 90s proper quick car!

As above, would be behind something like Mr Tidy’s 330i now

And even further behind a modern day 330d no doubt

Given the original 184bhp 2.9ltr 330d I’d say that would be likely even more of a competition.

Let alone the 204 bhp 330d E46.

Then the 231bhp 330d 6.8 seconds and a 155mph car

Then beyond that they are materially quicker

I've had both a 2006 330d and a 2006 330i and the 330d made the 330i feel pretty gutless in comparison to me. The current 330d would absolutely wipe the floor with the old NA 330i for definite performance wise.

I like to call myself a petrolhead but I don't half appreciate what some of the performance diesels can do though for sure. Especially when it comes to daily driving I reckon. I certainly don't want to have to rev a car to 6600rpm(like you would in a 2006 330i) to get max power, and I much prefer the on tap performance that a torquey diesel(or turbo petrol) gives you in comparison.

I'm happy enough to rev out a nice NA petrol engine in a weekend or occasional car though for sure.

Yes, I think you’d need the 330d to really show stuff like the 80s M5, 911 Carrera, Sierra Cosworth, 944 Turbo, Renault GTA and Esprit Turbo the way home on a track Lee

The 320d doesn’t quite have enough to see a real advantage.
In fact they did it in EVO a few years back with the 200bhp 1-series diesel vs the M3 of that era and the M3 was still quicker ( lighter and similar horsepower )

The power to weight figures are a given and from their you can calculate acceleration and top speed differences. The biggest improvements in modern cars will be the tyres and the chassis stiffness, finally brakes, although there is also a braking to weight formula. Weight will however, always be a negative when go around corners and changing direction. Increasing power whilst increasing weight is if fine for matching straight line performance but is doesn't scale in the same way for cornering.

But it's very difficult to compare a car from 20 years ago if they were running on 20 year old tech tyres versus today. Even when they do these tests with a modern car v older performance car on the same tyres, is the old car box fresh and brand new? Is a heritage collection Escort Cosworth being driven in the same fashion as a modern press car? You can get "classic" tyres still, that would have very similar performance but they wouldn't be available in sizes to fit the vast majority of modern car to be able to make a comparison. Maybe something small wheeled like a Caterham could be fitted with classic tyres and post a lap time. Then stick some MPSS on and see the difference. You could then use that formula to scale up some of the old track times for cars to give an idea what they would have achieved on modern rubber?

[otolith]

MC Bodge said:

otolith said:

MC Bodge said:

It is what you do with it and how much you enjoy it that matters. It's unlikely that you'll be wringing out the last ounce of performance on the road, even if many newer cars are capable of operating well above the road threshold. I'm not sure that the R+ mode in that Civic Type R is of much use even on a track, it would be very unpleasant.

I suspect that it was probably in that mode when it took the Nürburgring front drive record - and I also suspect that the manually adjustable Ohlins dampers on the 70k version of the Megane which took that record away from the Civic were probably set up to be somewhat less comfortable than you would want for a road car.

People have been saying for a long time that developing cars to give marketing an impressive Nürburgring time results in less than optimal setups for the British roads.

Somewhat less comfortable is didn't to harsh/skipping. It does depend on the smoothness of the track, of course.

How many people are paying for this Nurburgring potential in order to use anywhere near or anything like it? Do many people use cars like the Type R Civic on track?

I was talking to a chap who attended a i30N launch event on the road. He told me that it was very stiff, and that in anything other than the softest setting, the car was harsh and unpleasant.

Some people clearly want it, because the cars are selling.

For those who don't, they also sell the Civic with 1.0 and 1.5 litre turbocharged petrol engines and suspension not designed for race tracks which might be more up their street?

[J4CKO]

s m said:

cerb4.5lee said:

Welshbeef said:

s m said:

V8 Animal said:

I would like to drive my old Carlton GSI 24v to compare to the modern stuff again, back in the 90s proper quick car!

As above, would be behind something like Mr Tidy’s 330i now

And even further behind a modern day 330d no doubt

Given the original 184bhp 2.9ltr 330d I’d say that would be likely even more of a competition.

Let alone the 204 bhp 330d E46.

Then the 231bhp 330d 6.8 seconds and a 155mph car

Then beyond that they are materially quicker

I've had both a 2006 330d and a 2006 330i and the 330d made the 330i feel pretty gutless in comparison to me. The current 330d would absolutely wipe the floor with the old NA 330i for definite performance wise.

I like to call myself a petrolhead but I don't half appreciate what some of the performance diesels can do though for sure. Especially when it comes to daily driving I reckon. I certainly don't want to have to rev a car to 6600rpm(like you would in a 2006 330i) to get max power, and I much prefer the on tap performance that a torquey diesel(or turbo petrol) gives you in comparison.

I'm happy enough to rev out a nice NA petrol engine in a weekend or occasional car though for sure.

Yes, I think you’d need the 330d to really show stuff like the 80s M5, 911 Carrera, Sierra Cosworth, 944 Turbo, Renault GTA and Esprit Turbo the way home on a track Lee

The 320d doesn’t quite have enough to see a real advantage.
In fact they did it in EVO a few years back with the 200bhp 1-series diesel vs the M3 of that era and the M3 was still quicker ( lighter and similar horsepower )

And a Fiesta ST wipes the floor with an Escort Cosworth,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djaDAAP_Hac

Thats progress, its weird though as still in my mind the Escort Cosworth is an unassailable 4wd performance titan based on my perception from back then, and the Fiesta is a lukewarm FWD hot hatch based on my perception of them now relative to the loony stuff you can get these days.

Also, think like the Supra, a lot of tthe perception was based on tuned examples rather than standard ones.

[blade7]

s m said:

Talking of old vs new, old 328i vs i30N compared for acceleration and braking


https://youtu.be/kABbEVlf_PQ

The 328 is one of my favourite old cars, derestricted with a 325 inlet manifold and a carbon induction kit, it was fast enough to stop me buying a Porsche 968.

[blade7]

J4CKO said:

And a Fiesta ST wipes the floor with an Escort Cosworth,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djaDAAP_Hac

Thats progress, its weird though as still in my mind the Escort Cosworth is an unassailable 4wd performance titan based on my perception from back then, and the Fiesta is a lukewarm FWD hot hatch based on my perception of them now relative to the loony stuff you can get these days.

I think the Escort was designed for traction and downforce, rather than straight line speed.

[s m]

J4CKO said:

s m said:

cerb4.5lee said:

Welshbeef said:

s m said:

V8 Animal said:

I would like to drive my old Carlton GSI 24v to compare to the modern stuff again, back in the 90s proper quick car!

As above, would be behind something like Mr Tidy’s 330i now

And even further behind a modern day 330d no doubt

Given the original 184bhp 2.9ltr 330d I’d say that would be likely even more of a competition.

Let alone the 204 bhp 330d E46.

Then the 231bhp 330d 6.8 seconds and a 155mph car

Then beyond that they are materially quicker

I've had both a 2006 330d and a 2006 330i and the 330d made the 330i feel pretty gutless in comparison to me. The current 330d would absolutely wipe the floor with the old NA 330i for definite performance wise.

I like to call myself a petrolhead but I don't half appreciate what some of the performance diesels can do though for sure. Especially when it comes to daily driving I reckon. I certainly don't want to have to rev a car to 6600rpm(like you would in a 2006 330i) to get max power, and I much prefer the on tap performance that a torquey diesel(or turbo petrol) gives you in comparison.

I'm happy enough to rev out a nice NA petrol engine in a weekend or occasional car though for sure.

Yes, I think you’d need the 330d to really show stuff like the 80s M5, 911 Carrera, Sierra Cosworth, 944 Turbo, Renault GTA and Esprit Turbo the way home on a track Lee

The 320d doesn’t quite have enough to see a real advantage.
In fact they did it in EVO a few years back with the 200bhp 1-series diesel vs the M3 of that era and the M3 was still quicker ( lighter and similar horsepower )

And a Fiesta ST wipes the floor with an Escort Cosworth,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djaDAAP_Hac

Thats progress, its weird though as still in my mind the Escort Cosworth is an unassailable 4wd performance titan based on my perception from back then, and the Fiesta is a lukewarm FWD hot hatch based on my perception of them now relative to the loony stuff you can get these days.

Also, think like the Supra, a lot of tthe perception was based on tuned examples rather than standard ones.

I think the Escort might have been a bit slower than the rwd cars on a dry track ...but yes, I get your point

That Fiesta ST would be clustered in with the E28 M5, 911 Carrera, 944 Turbo, Esprit Turbo, Sierra Cosworth and Renault GTA by all accounts. At least on that 80s Combe track

Amazing really

[Olivera]

J4CKO said:

And a Fiesta ST wipes the floor with an Escort Cosworth,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djaDAAP_Hac

Thats progress, its weird though as still in my mind the Escort Cosworth is an unassailable 4wd performance titan based on my perception from back then, and the Fiesta is a lukewarm FWD hot hatch based on my perception of them now relative to the loony stuff you can get these days.

Also, think like the Supra, a lot of tthe perception was based on tuned examples rather than standard ones.

The Escort Cosworth in that test was running something like 17 year old tyres (IIRC checked by 's m' on here in a magazine article from the same time where you could read the sidewall), and the ST runs brand new sticky Michelin Pilot Super Sports. That single factor alone will account for a huge difference.