RE: 'It was worse than I thought' | Moers on Aston
Discussion
myhandle said:
The photo of the Valhalla at the top of the article makes the car look so bad that I thought it was a Consulier GTP . It is a shockingly bad looking car from that angle, and I like the V8 Vantage Zagato and the V600 Le Mans and the Bulldog and the William Towns Lagonda and the Taraf, the supposedly challenging looking Aston Martins which are in fact impressive and interesting. The Valhalla looks absolutely dreadful. I had an Aston once, a 2002 Vanquish with the S brakes, and it looked great and was ok to drive, a bit like a TVR, but far inferior to the 599 that replaced it. But it didn’t matter - it was special, and looked special, and I could forgive the rough edges in the interior (I have no problem with Ford parts bin bits, but Ford parts bin bits that snap off in your hand or fall off when you shut the door - the triangles at the front of the window inside the mirror were particularly bad, and this was an 8,000 mile 6 year old car bought from the main dealer) aren’t fun. Nonetheless, I’d buy another Mk1 Vanquish. It’s a car for enthusiasts and I always smile when I see one. There is nothing in their current range that does that, for me at least. Best of luck, but with the volumes they seek they are going to need it.
I'd love to know how you had S brakes on a 2002 Vanquish. As a 599 was a model generation later is totally logical. A 550 is the logical comparison. A 575 against the S
Agree with the triangles. But never had any Ford bits break off in my hands.
The Vanquish is full of "character" but it has much more about it than a 550 in many ways.
RSchneider said:
Not sure the mid-engined stuff is a good idea for Aston. They should focus on one luxury and sporty coupe, maybe do a lightweight version like a GT3, then take the roof off and make a drophead version. And if need be that SUV. So basically two models. Can't really see the brand carry more.
Meanwhile Lambo cannot make enough URUS. You do make me laugh.DBX is on back order for months. Their issue is they cannot make it fast enough.
VanquishRider said:
myhandle said:
The photo of the Valhalla at the top of the article makes the car look so bad that I thought it was a Consulier GTP . It is a shockingly bad looking car from that angle, and I like the V8 Vantage Zagato and the V600 Le Mans and the Bulldog and the William Towns Lagonda and the Taraf, the supposedly challenging looking Aston Martins which are in fact impressive and interesting. The Valhalla looks absolutely dreadful. I had an Aston once, a 2002 Vanquish with the S brakes, and it looked great and was ok to drive, a bit like a TVR, but far inferior to the 599 that replaced it. But it didn’t matter - it was special, and looked special, and I could forgive the rough edges in the interior (I have no problem with Ford parts bin bits, but Ford parts bin bits that snap off in your hand or fall off when you shut the door - the triangles at the front of the window inside the mirror were particularly bad, and this was an 8,000 mile 6 year old car bought from the main dealer) aren’t fun. Nonetheless, I’d buy another Mk1 Vanquish. It’s a car for enthusiasts and I always smile when I see one. There is nothing in their current range that does that, for me at least. Best of luck, but with the volumes they seek they are going to need it.
I'd love to know how you had S brakes on a 2002 Vanquish. As a 599 was a model generation later is totally logical. A 550 is the logical comparison. A 575 against the S
Agree with the triangles. But never had any Ford bits break off in my hands.
The Vanquish is full of "character" but it has much more about it than a 550 in many ways.
The 599 took it all to another level.
chelme said:
Aesthetically, the Vanquish built under Bez was and remains far more impressive to behold than the 550/575. Dynamically however, the Ferrari is known to be much more able.
The 599 took it all to another level.
Exactly. Not many people lust after a 456, 550 or 575. No matter how good they go. The 599 took it all to another level.
550 and 575 were a competitive match for a Vanq/Vanq S but no comparison I ever read or watched pitched either one miles ahead of the other. The automated manual gearboxes on both cars share many parts. Vanq being the inferior, but neither were a great experience in period. The Vanq's later modifications improved it greatly in the S and retrofitted to most non S these days also.
I do lust after a 599 though. Different car altogether.
The problem is that doing some new models, especially some new halo ones is fun, whereas knuckling down and sorting out your "run of the mill" front engined GTs is, well, a bit boring. But the mid-engine stuff is, imo, just a distraction, and soon, when everything is electric, mid engine is where the battery is and not where the motor is. And when everything IS EV, a big, GT V12 is going to be a really special thing.......
Xfe said:
I appreciate the point on synthetic fuels, at least Moers is open to them and I'm sure we all similarly hope we get the breakthrough/viability in time.
Hoping, praying, begging, pleading, you name it I’m doing it! Couldn’t care less if it’s got a Merc V8, I just want them to still have engines! (Yes I know this EV world is hurtling at us whether I like it or not) Aston Martin’s problem is the same as the one Lotus is facing - for years it barely survived on a combination of conservative enthusiasts (which there weren’t enough of) and the hubris of various company owners (which there was too much of). In particular the pre IPO ownership was hugely short term and self serving (as they are entitled to be) A strategy of competing for a wider customer base including conquesting Ferrari, Lambo and top end Porsche customers gives Aston the potential scale to survive and thrive. The challenge is in how - the execution was thinly spread across too many projects previously despite the potential of each model individually ( plus the silly stuff like submarines and motorcycles which did nothing for the brand), now the focus seems more appropriate. The DBX is a bit late and perhaps not as pretty as it could be but fundamentally it’s a winning proposition that can create a solid foundation - more concerning the is inability to build enough of them. The rest of the plan is basically sound (even the shelved Lagonda reboot was fundamentally well thought out) - as always saying it is easier than doing it. What is not in doubt is the quality and commitment of the people working there. I wish them every success.
Sounds like he knows what he’s doing, is approaching it sensibly, and will ensure Astons survival and return to profitability. And with that, hopefully pockets deep enough to justify being able to develop some more bespoke solutions.
There is an awful lot of shrill emotive guff being spouted from some corners on here though. Good god.
News flash, the idealised version of Aston with bespoke this that and the other from your rose-tinted dreams isn’t a viable business, nor is that customer base, and hasn’t been for a long time. Be thankful that it’s hopefully been caught and rescued just in time.
And what’s so terrible about AMG gubbins? Hell of a lot more advanced, desirable, and higher quality than the gussied up bitsas being snuck out the side door of a German Ford factory. In fact there hasn’t been a truly bespoke Aston engine produced in almost a quarter of a century, ever since the Tadek Marek V8. For an “outside engine” to now be an affront is consequently a ludicrous position to be taking.
There is an awful lot of shrill emotive guff being spouted from some corners on here though. Good god.
News flash, the idealised version of Aston with bespoke this that and the other from your rose-tinted dreams isn’t a viable business, nor is that customer base, and hasn’t been for a long time. Be thankful that it’s hopefully been caught and rescued just in time.
And what’s so terrible about AMG gubbins? Hell of a lot more advanced, desirable, and higher quality than the gussied up bitsas being snuck out the side door of a German Ford factory. In fact there hasn’t been a truly bespoke Aston engine produced in almost a quarter of a century, ever since the Tadek Marek V8. For an “outside engine” to now be an affront is consequently a ludicrous position to be taking.
Edited by dvs_dave on Thursday 13th May 09:21
Speedraser said:
As someone who has been a lifelong Aston Martin enthusiast, and who bought his first one almost 12 years ago: The AMG engine is an absolute deal-breaker for many people. It is for me, it is for many on this forum, it is for many other Aston owners and potential owners I know personally. It is a frequent discussion point. A shared platform would also be a deal-breaker (maybe even more so than the engine). This matters. As much as any other factor in the purchase decision. It goes straight to the core of desirability. It goes straight to the core of credibility. A Benz-powered (or platformed) "Aston" comprehensively defeats the point of an Aston Martin, and such a car is no more an Aston than a Benz-powered (or platformed) Ferrari would be a Ferrari. No one says this is easy or cheap -- it isn't easy or cheap to make an Aston Martin. Make Aston Martins. Or don't bother.
Can the company survive by just selling to its existing client base though? They need a car with broad appeal, which (in this segment) I suppose means looks and bragging rights for performance.I’m not convinced they’ve got the looks right, inside and out, with the current generation and I’d contend that’s a significant problem. Of course, my views are somewhat moot as I can’t afford a new Aston.
Aside from that, to create a new engine is surely hugely expensive. Can they afford to do it?
Sorry, been on the wrong end of this sort of appointment too many times to buy into the guff in the article.
I'd put money on every single one of those genius-level insights he mentions being down to the advice given to him by long-suffering management.
If he gets them sorted and it keeps people in jobs, then good luck to him.
I'd put money on every single one of those genius-level insights he mentions being down to the advice given to him by long-suffering management.
If he gets them sorted and it keeps people in jobs, then good luck to him.
It is a shame that Palmer's gamble failed but unlike the UK, Germany respects its engineers and puts them in the right places and they get the results that ensure success.
However, that nagging feeling that, where Dr Bez failed Moers will be successful. To bring Aston into the orbit of AMG Mercedes.
German companies already dominate motor manufacture in Europe and picked off a number of weak British companies and then Italian ones. In the case of the UK because the City and Government care little for manufacturing.
The same will happen with Aston. No doubt metropolitan customers will not care but it seems a shame to let it be eaten up.
In the meantime, get that Cosworth V12 out into the world, knock four cylinders off and stuff it in the road cars and let the good times roll.
However, that nagging feeling that, where Dr Bez failed Moers will be successful. To bring Aston into the orbit of AMG Mercedes.
German companies already dominate motor manufacture in Europe and picked off a number of weak British companies and then Italian ones. In the case of the UK because the City and Government care little for manufacturing.
The same will happen with Aston. No doubt metropolitan customers will not care but it seems a shame to let it be eaten up.
In the meantime, get that Cosworth V12 out into the world, knock four cylinders off and stuff it in the road cars and let the good times roll.
DanL said:
Speedraser said:
As someone who has been a lifelong Aston Martin enthusiast, and who bought his first one almost 12 years ago: The AMG engine is an absolute deal-breaker for many people. It is for me, it is for many on this forum, it is for many other Aston owners and potential owners I know personally. It is a frequent discussion point. A shared platform would also be a deal-breaker (maybe even more so than the engine). This matters. As much as any other factor in the purchase decision. It goes straight to the core of desirability. It goes straight to the core of credibility. A Benz-powered (or platformed) "Aston" comprehensively defeats the point of an Aston Martin, and such a car is no more an Aston than a Benz-powered (or platformed) Ferrari would be a Ferrari. No one says this is easy or cheap -- it isn't easy or cheap to make an Aston Martin. Make Aston Martins. Or don't bother.
Can the company survive by just selling to its existing client base though? They need a car with broad appeal, which (in this segment) I suppose means looks and bragging rights for performance.I’m not convinced they’ve got the looks right, inside and out, with the current generation and I’d contend that’s a significant problem. Of course, my views are somewhat moot as I can’t afford a new Aston.
Aside from that, to create a new engine is surely hugely expensive. Can they afford to do it?
dukebox9reg said:
DanL said:
Speedraser said:
As someone who has been a lifelong Aston Martin enthusiast, and who bought his first one almost 12 years ago: The AMG engine is an absolute deal-breaker for many people. It is for me, it is for many on this forum, it is for many other Aston owners and potential owners I know personally. It is a frequent discussion point. A shared platform would also be a deal-breaker (maybe even more so than the engine). This matters. As much as any other factor in the purchase decision. It goes straight to the core of desirability. It goes straight to the core of credibility. A Benz-powered (or platformed) "Aston" comprehensively defeats the point of an Aston Martin, and such a car is no more an Aston than a Benz-powered (or platformed) Ferrari would be a Ferrari. No one says this is easy or cheap -- it isn't easy or cheap to make an Aston Martin. Make Aston Martins. Or don't bother.
Can the company survive by just selling to its existing client base though? They need a car with broad appeal, which (in this segment) I suppose means looks and bragging rights for performance.I’m not convinced they’ve got the looks right, inside and out, with the current generation and I’d contend that’s a significant problem. Of course, my views are somewhat moot as I can’t afford a new Aston.
Aside from that, to create a new engine is surely hugely expensive. Can they afford to do it?
chelme said:
Cars like this are not bought on logic. This "broader" appeal? The current Vantage and DB11 are designed and engineered to "appeal to a broader audiance" as you say, yet the reality is the opposite. The brand is in trouble and not selling as many Vantages as it used to under Bez.
Well, indeed, but as mentioned I contend this is because they’re quite ugly (particularly the Vantage). It looks fine from the sides and back, but the front isn’t good to my eyes… They’ve done something here with a revised grill option, but it’s the small headlights that seem odd to me…fblm said:
DB5 aside I really wish they'd drop the ultra cheesy Bond thing. It's awful. Honestly puts me right off. Omega too.
100%.That shark got jumped a long time ago and frankly it puts me off too.
I could due to the magic of finance buy a new AM but nothing they make right now makes me want to spend £1k a month.
For me the zenith point of the brand was the V550 Vantage, and frankly Bentley have nailed the GT car thing that from 1970 - 2000 was Aston Martin's own.
From the Vanquish onwards it feels like AM have been chasing the goal of being the English Ferrari, and it's worked out really well, I don't deny that, they lurched from bankruptcy to bankruptcy building penny numbers of cars I liked! However they should have the confidence in the brand to sell it on it's merit. Forget all this Q nonsense and the continuation DB5 cheese-fest.
If you are going to beat Ferrari they are building the right cars, AMG engines are a necessity for any low volume manufacturer and the future of EV AM's with Ferrari rivalling dynamics is an exciting one.
Just not one I can see myself embracing...
...I'll rest my tweed jacket elbows in a used Continental and dream of being able to buy a Towns or Heffernan/Greenly V8.
I don't think the engine is the issue with slow sales but the previous over-supply (with poor residuals) and the current gen of interiors definitely are. Look at the current DBS, looks stunning, goes like the proverbial off a spade but sit inside one and you're greeted with an interior that is the same as DB11, which in itself is anything but elegant when compared to the previous VH-era Astons. Get into old Vantage, DB9, DBS and it felt genuinely special, even if the quality wasn't that great when you started digging.
I think the facelifts when they eventually arrive will make DB11, Vantage, DBS the cars they should have been from the start. The badge still holds a lot of cachet and offers a genuine alternative to those prospective customers who find the Italian offerings a little showy, a Bentley too old man, a McLaren too race car like and a Porsche too dull.
I think the facelifts when they eventually arrive will make DB11, Vantage, DBS the cars they should have been from the start. The badge still holds a lot of cachet and offers a genuine alternative to those prospective customers who find the Italian offerings a little showy, a Bentley too old man, a McLaren too race car like and a Porsche too dull.
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