RE: 'It was worse than I thought' | Moers on Aston
Discussion
P-Jay said:
Well, he sounds like a Man who doesn't have "f
king about" written anywhere on his to do list, that's for sure.
Okay, they didn't mention the slashing of staff numbers in St. Athan, but I hope (because I'm local) that they can reverse that with improved sales, the DBX should be a big hit for them, even at the price, but I guess Covid was a nightmare for them and that car especially.
Yes what happened there as it wasn’t reported in the press that I saw at least. Whole sourcing team from DBX roles have gone back to Gaydon, what else went?king about" written anywhere on his to do list, that's for sure. Okay, they didn't mention the slashing of staff numbers in St. Athan, but I hope (because I'm local) that they can reverse that with improved sales, the DBX should be a big hit for them, even at the price, but I guess Covid was a nightmare for them and that car especially.
chelme said:
How do you know what the "vast majority" of the market cares about? Did you carry out market research? If so, when, who did you put the research paper to, what questions were asked? Or are you just opining. Its fine if you are, just curious.
I didn't have to as the sales figures speak for themselves - the DBX is the single biggest selling model Aston currently makes, features the AMG motor and accounts for over 25% of all sales in 2020; 1,171 out of 4150 cars sold to be precise (bear in mind that total figure doesn't include any Vantage sales). That's not my opinion, that's a fact. In addition, the first year the AMG engined Vantage came out produced this result - https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-11-22... - sounds like people really didn't like that new engine, huh?
Before you cry that I moved the goalposts, note my previous comments refer to the usage of the AMG engine in any Aston - I didn't refer to the Vantage at any point.
Edited by sidesauce on Friday 14th May 00:12
NGK210 said:
I wish they’d developed the relationship with Toyota: bespoke-ish engines designed by either Cosworth or Prodrive, but based on Lexus engine blocks; Lexus-build principles / efficiency; Lexus-type quality control; Lexus-grade under skin components / electrics.
In short, Aston’s charm and style + Lexus’s bombproof reliability = a world beater!
Talking about left field ideas for the engine: Three years ago Yamaha introduced the XTO V8 5.6L outborder. That engine is really advanced and MIGHT form the basis of a good automotive engine. Would be unique.In short, Aston’s charm and style + Lexus’s bombproof reliability = a world beater!
The fundamental issue for some is that any engine that isn't developed in-house, is seen as diluting the brand - it doesn't matter if the engine in question isn't available in any other car. If it's not designed and assembled by Aston Martin, it's deemed not a purebred engine. Interestingly, Cosworth were employed to develop and assemble the Valkyrie engine, and the purist folk didn't mind that (but instead, they dislike the entire notion of the car existing, so perhaps that's academic).
The agreement with AMG now means that engines are built by AMG, with parts cherry picked according to what Aston Martin wants (more akin to Pagani's arrangement). With Mercedes and AMG moving towards downsizing and more reliance on hybrid tech, the engines built for AML wont share anything with a current Mercedes product, but that still isn't good enough for the purists though. The funny thing is that the way the parts will be chosen, isn't dissimilar to how the old V8 and V12's were built, using components common to other Ford applications (hence the old wive's tale about the V12 being two Mondeo V6's welded together).
As the posts above indicate, some (a relative minority) believe that if you cannot deliver in-house developed purity, you should just shut up shop and give up. The inconvenient truth is that those banging the drum for AML to develop another ICE in-house right now, don't understand or don't care about the cost, and sure as st if they did bring it to market, the list price would likely not be their cup of tea either. At a time when a low volume car maker without the safety net of a parent company is trying to stay in business, we have a very vocal minority demanding absolute bespoke machinery, while not wanting to pay the price of admission.
For the last 4 years, the discussion has gone round in circles, because those who don't understand or simply don't care about the R&D cost or timeline, believe there's an alternate reality where emissions legislation isn't a thing and money does indeed, grow on trees. Instead, Aston's developed some fantastic cars that with some styling re-work, might just hit the spot for those who acknowledge that in the dying days of the internal combustion engine, they're offering what they can, while they can.
In 9 years time, when we're arguing about which milk float makes the better noise, perhaps the AE31 V12, an in-house developed engine that gets shunned because it's turbocharged, might be revisited with more praise.
The agreement with AMG now means that engines are built by AMG, with parts cherry picked according to what Aston Martin wants (more akin to Pagani's arrangement). With Mercedes and AMG moving towards downsizing and more reliance on hybrid tech, the engines built for AML wont share anything with a current Mercedes product, but that still isn't good enough for the purists though. The funny thing is that the way the parts will be chosen, isn't dissimilar to how the old V8 and V12's were built, using components common to other Ford applications (hence the old wive's tale about the V12 being two Mondeo V6's welded together).
As the posts above indicate, some (a relative minority) believe that if you cannot deliver in-house developed purity, you should just shut up shop and give up. The inconvenient truth is that those banging the drum for AML to develop another ICE in-house right now, don't understand or don't care about the cost, and sure as s
t if they did bring it to market, the list price would likely not be their cup of tea either. At a time when a low volume car maker without the safety net of a parent company is trying to stay in business, we have a very vocal minority demanding absolute bespoke machinery, while not wanting to pay the price of admission.For the last 4 years, the discussion has gone round in circles, because those who don't understand or simply don't care about the R&D cost or timeline, believe there's an alternate reality where emissions legislation isn't a thing and money does indeed, grow on trees. Instead, Aston's developed some fantastic cars that with some styling re-work, might just hit the spot for those who acknowledge that in the dying days of the internal combustion engine, they're offering what they can, while they can.
In 9 years time, when we're arguing about which milk float makes the better noise, perhaps the AE31 V12, an in-house developed engine that gets shunned because it's turbocharged, might be revisited with more praise.
My sentiments precisely.
Development of an in-house ICE engine now is akin to building yourself a house out of the finest materials and insisting on bespoke craftsmanship know full well you will knock it down & build something else in 8 years & 6 month’s time.
It would be madness.
Plus being in-bed with & on good terms with AMG makes sense as their budget to develop an EV or alternative fuel engine would be impossible for AM to match.
No-one I suspect cares that their Rolex Daytona has a Zenith movement for example.
Development of an in-house ICE engine now is akin to building yourself a house out of the finest materials and insisting on bespoke craftsmanship know full well you will knock it down & build something else in 8 years & 6 month’s time.
It would be madness.
Plus being in-bed with & on good terms with AMG makes sense as their budget to develop an EV or alternative fuel engine would be impossible for AM to match.
No-one I suspect cares that their Rolex Daytona has a Zenith movement for example.
Stick Legs said:
My sentiments precisely.
Development of an in-house ICE engine now is akin to building yourself a house out of the finest materials and insisting on bespoke craftsmanship know full well you will knock it down & build something else in 8 years & 6 month’s time.
It would be madness.
Plus being in-bed with & on good terms with AMG makes sense as their budget to develop an EV or alternative fuel engine would be impossible for AM to match.
No-one I suspect cares that their Rolex Daytona has a Zenith movement for example.
To be fair, Rolex has been using their own in-house caliber 4130 in Daytona's since 2000; the Zenith caliber 4030 was only used for 12 years between 1988 and 2000 (with Valjoux calibers being used before then) but your point still stands.Development of an in-house ICE engine now is akin to building yourself a house out of the finest materials and insisting on bespoke craftsmanship know full well you will knock it down & build something else in 8 years & 6 month’s time.
It would be madness.
Plus being in-bed with & on good terms with AMG makes sense as their budget to develop an EV or alternative fuel engine would be impossible for AM to match.
No-one I suspect cares that their Rolex Daytona has a Zenith movement for example.
Ironically and interestingly, the most valuable/sought-after Rolex are in fact the pre Zenith-era Daytonas!
NFC 85 Vette said:
The fundamental issue for some is that any engine that isn't developed in-house, is seen as diluting the brand - it doesn't matter if the engine in question isn't available in any other car. If it's not designed and assembled by Aston Martin, it's deemed not a purebred engine. Interestingly, Cosworth were employed to develop and assemble the Valkyrie engine, and the purist folk didn't mind that (but instead, they dislike the entire notion of the car existing, so perhaps that's academic).
The agreement with AMG now means that engines are built by AMG, with parts cherry picked according to what Aston Martin wants (more akin to Pagani's arrangement). With Mercedes and AMG moving towards downsizing and more reliance on hybrid tech, the engines built for AML wont share anything with a current Mercedes product, but that still isn't good enough for the purists though. The funny thing is that the way the parts will be chosen, isn't dissimilar to how the old V8 and V12's were built, using components common to other Ford applications (hence the old wive's tale about the V12 being two Mondeo V6's welded together).
As the posts above indicate, some (a relative minority) believe that if you cannot deliver in-house developed purity, you should just shut up shop and give up. The inconvenient truth is that those banging the drum for AML to develop another ICE in-house right now, don't understand or don't care about the cost, and sure as st if they did bring it to market, the list price would likely not be their cup of tea either. At a time when a low volume car maker without the safety net of a parent company is trying to stay in business, we have a very vocal minority demanding absolute bespoke machinery, while not wanting to pay the price of admission.
For the last 4 years, the discussion has gone round in circles, because those who don't understand or simply don't care about the R&D cost or timeline, believe there's an alternate reality where emissions legislation isn't a thing and money does indeed, grow on trees. Instead, Aston's developed some fantastic cars that with some styling re-work, might just hit the spot for those who acknowledge that in the dying days of the internal combustion engine, they're offering what they can, while they can.
In 9 years time, when we're arguing about which milk float makes the better noise, perhaps the AE31 V12, an in-house developed engine that gets shunned because it's turbocharged, might be revisited with more praise.
A very good summary sir.The agreement with AMG now means that engines are built by AMG, with parts cherry picked according to what Aston Martin wants (more akin to Pagani's arrangement). With Mercedes and AMG moving towards downsizing and more reliance on hybrid tech, the engines built for AML wont share anything with a current Mercedes product, but that still isn't good enough for the purists though. The funny thing is that the way the parts will be chosen, isn't dissimilar to how the old V8 and V12's were built, using components common to other Ford applications (hence the old wive's tale about the V12 being two Mondeo V6's welded together).
As the posts above indicate, some (a relative minority) believe that if you cannot deliver in-house developed purity, you should just shut up shop and give up. The inconvenient truth is that those banging the drum for AML to develop another ICE in-house right now, don't understand or don't care about the cost, and sure as s
t if they did bring it to market, the list price would likely not be their cup of tea either. At a time when a low volume car maker without the safety net of a parent company is trying to stay in business, we have a very vocal minority demanding absolute bespoke machinery, while not wanting to pay the price of admission.For the last 4 years, the discussion has gone round in circles, because those who don't understand or simply don't care about the R&D cost or timeline, believe there's an alternate reality where emissions legislation isn't a thing and money does indeed, grow on trees. Instead, Aston's developed some fantastic cars that with some styling re-work, might just hit the spot for those who acknowledge that in the dying days of the internal combustion engine, they're offering what they can, while they can.
In 9 years time, when we're arguing about which milk float makes the better noise, perhaps the AE31 V12, an in-house developed engine that gets shunned because it's turbocharged, might be revisited with more praise.
sidesauce said:
To be fair, Rolex has been using their own in-house caliber 4130 in Daytona's since 2000; the Zenith caliber 4030 was only used for 12 years between 1988 and 2000 (with Valjoux calibers being used before then) but your point still stands.
Ironically and interestingly, the most valuable/sought-after Rolex are in fact the pre Zenith-era Daytonas!
Can’t win ‘em all. Poor analogy on my part. Ironically and interestingly, the most valuable/sought-after Rolex are in fact the pre Zenith-era Daytonas!
Think i was at Silverstone when those Valkiryes were being tested. Well certainly one of the days anyway - it was cold, last autumn late October i think, and they were doing laps in the lunchbreak on just a normal motorsport test day.
Sounded absolutely epic - but whilst they looked fast into Copse, they were still braking well before the 50 board, and lapping about 2:45 pace. So about a minute off the sort of absolutely mental laptimes claims these cars have. Track was greasy however, it was cold,and if it was a demo drive for execs of course not pushing....
Sounded absolutely epic - but whilst they looked fast into Copse, they were still braking well before the 50 board, and lapping about 2:45 pace. So about a minute off the sort of absolutely mental laptimes claims these cars have. Track was greasy however, it was cold,and if it was a demo drive for execs of course not pushing....
NFC 85 Vette said:
The fundamental issue for some is that any engine that isn't developed in-house, is seen as diluting the brand - it doesn't matter if the engine in question isn't available in any other car. If it's not designed and assembled by Aston Martin,
Does not seam to have affected pagani, i think some of their cars have even appreciated a small amount sidesauce said:
chelme said:
How do you know what the "vast majority" of the market cares about? Did you carry out market research? If so, when, who did you put the research paper to, what questions were asked? Or are you just opining. Its fine if you are, just curious.
I didn't have to as the sales figures speak for themselves - the DBX is the single biggest selling model Aston currently makes, features the AMG motor and accounts for over 25% of all sales in 2020; 1,171 out of 4150 cars sold to be precise (bear in mind that total figure doesn't include any Vantage sales). That's not my opinion, that's a fact. In addition, the first year the AMG engined Vantage came out produced this result - https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-11-22... - sounds like people really didn't like that new engine, huh?
Before you cry that I moved the goalposts, note my previous comments refer to the usage of the AMG engine in any Aston - I didn't refer to the Vantage at any point.
Edited by sidesauce on Friday 14th May 00:12
RSchneider said:
Talking about left field ideas for the engine: Three years ago Yamaha introduced the XTO V8 5.6L outborder. That engine is really advanced and MIGHT form the basis of a good automotive engine. Would be unique.
The Volvo/Yamaha V8 joint venture from years ago was pretty much exactly this. Marine outboard also doing duty as an automotive engine. Either way, there’s many examples of marine/automotive engine crossovers so not a new concept at all.The talk of an electric future alway makes me wonder what they will do. At the moment, you have a choice of a V8 or V12. To a car fan, that is an important difference as it changes the character of the vehicle. Ateast it did before they all went auto but that's another issue. When they are electrified, where will the character of the vehicle come from? All you will be buying is a different trim level, possibly a different body. I lmow that I'm an old fashioned dinosaur (and damn proud of it), but I just don't get it.
BigChiefmuffinAgain said:
He certainly is making the right noises, and it is clear that the previous management had lost the plot a bit near the end, but I still think they have a lot of struggles ahead. The DBX is doing OK but no more - they say it handles the best of all the SUVs, but this is very subjective and buyers in this sector are often more sold on bold performance numbers, for which it is currently lacking. Certainly residuals on the Urus look far stronger. He did suggest they were going to do something about this.
The worry is that there is a new Cayenne and Ferrari just round the corner, while the Urus is soon due a refresh , and you wonder how that's going to hit them....
How does this lack performance? It's got 542hp and hits 60 in a little over 4 seconds. That's incredible performance!The worry is that there is a new Cayenne and Ferrari just round the corner, while the Urus is soon due a refresh , and you wonder how that's going to hit them....
Various reports this morning that Tobias Moers is leaving Aston with immediate effect
https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-news/industry-ne...
it sounds as if Moers wanted to maximise the German / Mercedes contribution to future Aston Martin models, whereas Stroll is sold on an Italian approach, staffed by ex-Ferrari execs.
The whole thing makes Stroll's ownership to date look a bit of a sh!t-show really, and resets again the progress they need to be making.
https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-news/industry-ne...
it sounds as if Moers wanted to maximise the German / Mercedes contribution to future Aston Martin models, whereas Stroll is sold on an Italian approach, staffed by ex-Ferrari execs.
The whole thing makes Stroll's ownership to date look a bit of a sh!t-show really, and resets again the progress they need to be making.
samoht said:
Various reports this morning that Tobias Moers is leaving Aston with immediate effect
https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-news/industry-ne...
it sounds as if Moers wanted to maximise the German / Mercedes contribution to future Aston Martin models, whereas Stroll is sold on an Italian approach, staffed by ex-Ferrari execs.
The whole thing makes Stroll's ownership to date look a bit of a sh!t-show really, and resets again the progress they need to be making.
Or limit the share price pain if the results (released today) are dire. https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-news/industry-ne...
it sounds as if Moers wanted to maximise the German / Mercedes contribution to future Aston Martin models, whereas Stroll is sold on an Italian approach, staffed by ex-Ferrari execs.
The whole thing makes Stroll's ownership to date look a bit of a sh!t-show really, and resets again the progress they need to be making.
LooneyTunes said:
samoht said:
Various reports this morning that Tobias Moers is leaving Aston with immediate effect
https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-news/industry-ne...
it sounds as if Moers wanted to maximise the German / Mercedes contribution to future Aston Martin models, whereas Stroll is sold on an Italian approach, staffed by ex-Ferrari execs.
The whole thing makes Stroll's ownership to date look a bit of a sh!t-show really, and resets again the progress they need to be making.
Or limit the share price pain if the results (released today) are dire. https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-news/industry-ne...
it sounds as if Moers wanted to maximise the German / Mercedes contribution to future Aston Martin models, whereas Stroll is sold on an Italian approach, staffed by ex-Ferrari execs.
The whole thing makes Stroll's ownership to date look a bit of a sh!t-show really, and resets again the progress they need to be making.
samoht said:
it sounds as if Moers wanted to maximise the German / Mercedes contribution to future Aston Martin models, whereas Stroll is sold on an Italian approach, staffed by ex-Ferrari execs.
It'll be interesting to see whether some of the ex-Ferrari and Maserati people that left during the Palmer->Moers transition return. They're used to having sensible (but tight) budgets to deliver the engineering with - I'm not convinced AML have that addressed yet.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff