RE: Ineos Grenadier production pushed back
Discussion
British Beef said:
I love and own an old old Defender, its rusty and frequently dropping bits off and oil, but it has never failed me.
If I wanted another for working on the farm, I would buy a slightly newer proper defender.
Which is fine, till you consider the fact the 'proper' defender has already been out of production five years, so your plan is a stopgap not long term sustainable. If I wanted another for working on the farm, I would buy a slightly newer proper defender.
Because while they are very maintainable eventually running a 20yo example as a daily workhorse becomes a drag!
Daniel
forzaminardi said:
Billy_Whizzzz said:
Lol. Got to laugh at the little englanders’ feeling of betrayal that a businessman needing to choose a sensible and connected place for production doesn’t choose little post Brexit britain.
I agree, and utterly predictable. It makes me sad/angry that he was one of the so-called "business geniuses" who advocated leaving the EU on basis of how wonderful it would be for British business, and then when an opportunity to put his money where his mouth is comes along... he puts his money in the EU. Can't fault his business judgement at all, but you can call out his duplicity.Notso said:
This Ineos is a updated LandRover, right?
No, the New Defender is an updated Land Rover. That's what you get when you look at what you actually need in a decent utility vehicle in 2020The Grenadier is basically a copy of an old car, a sort of NonRestoMod, where you basically take all the all highly out of date and compromised engineer that was left over after 50 years of zero investment and modernisation, and copy those with new parts. Hence you get beam axles for truly terrible ride and road manners, you get a noisy, uncomfortable cabin with poor crash performance, you get catasptrophic (by 2021 stds) fuel consumption, and most importantly of all, you get a product that is hugely expensive and time consuming to build, and that takes an enourmous effort to build with a high and consistant level of quality.
Now, ALL of those things would not be a problem is there were a large number of buyers for the car, because volume trumps everything, but in this case, i just don't see those hordes of buyers anywhere. This is basically an ultra niche product but with a volume business case.......
I think the boat will have sailed before this arrives
After a six year interlude people may forget that they need a badly built uncomfortable "icon" wiht mediocre load space and off road ability that can be better met by either something more agricultural (for heavy work) or with decent electric traction control for passenger work
After a six year interlude people may forget that they need a badly built uncomfortable "icon" wiht mediocre load space and off road ability that can be better met by either something more agricultural (for heavy work) or with decent electric traction control for passenger work
Don't forget it will be built by Magna Styr in Austria before the French have it. Steyr will want a guaranteed throughput, say 5-10,000 vehicles, to make it worth their while and given what it is I suspect that is a good 2-3 years business. Slot in a BMW E Drive in that time and you have a solution to the phase out of ICE plus you understand the real demand which I suspect will makes the whole thing unfeasible.
Lastly BMW engines once out of warranty aren’t known for their reliability on streets let alone off road
Lastly BMW engines once out of warranty aren’t known for their reliability on streets let alone off road
forzaminardi said:
I agree, and utterly predictable. It makes me sad/angry that he was one of the so-called "business geniuses" who advocated leaving the EU on basis of how wonderful it would be for British business, and then when an opportunity to put his money where his mouth is comes along... he puts his money in the EU. Can't fault his business judgement at all, but you can call out his duplicity.
At least when it all fails, and withers on the vine as surely it will, it will be a European failure and not a UK one!loudlashadjuster said:
Looks more and more like a Mahindra or something every time i see it.
Exactly that!The whole project winds me up, it just smacks of a massive lack of imagination from top to bottom.
The initial pitch was all about Britishness, innovation, building the best etc etc...
Would 100% take a new Defender over this. Forward thinking, fresh and innovative... and designed, engineered and built in Britain to boot.
oedipus said:
A delay for a product whose viability diminishes by the day is not good.
And a 15 month delay at that. 15 months ago this country was still 6 weeks away from the first lockdown, and that feels like an eternity. Utter disaster to have revealed the full exterior in July 2020.Veg said:
Slot in a BMW E Drive in that time and you have a solution to the phase out of ICE
Given that the vehicle has the aerodynamics of a housebrick, and the drag of an ocean going bulk tanker, to get any range worth anything it'll have to have a MASSIVE battery pack. Now where exactly are they going to put that with a ladder chassis and beam axles + leading/trailing link type design??The new defender is not a beam axles design for very good reason...........
Max_Torque said:
Veg said:
Slot in a BMW E Drive in that time and you have a solution to the phase out of ICE
Given that the vehicle has the aerodynamics of a housebrick, and the drag of an ocean going bulk tanker, to get any range worth anything it'll have to have a MASSIVE battery pack. Now where exactly are they going to put that with a ladder chassis and beam axles + leading/trailing link type design??The new defender is not a beam axles design for very good reason...........
seefarr said:
forzaminardi said:
Billy_Whizzzz said:
Lol. Got to laugh at the little englanders’ feeling of betrayal that a businessman needing to choose a sensible and connected place for production doesn’t choose little post Brexit britain.
I agree, and utterly predictable. It makes me sad/angry that he was one of the so-called "business geniuses" who advocated leaving the EU on basis of how wonderful it would be for British business, and then when an opportunity to put his money where his mouth is comes along... he puts his money in the EU. Can't fault his business judgement at all, but you can call out his duplicity.
A shame they have had to delay production. It's going to be interesting to see if they can make a success of it. I actually think it looks pretty good... purposeful, chunky. Not that it matters, as it will likely be aimed at commercial users and developing markets. He's got a tough job persuading people out of a Hilux or Land Cruiser, but I hope he can make it work.
It would be nice to see a start-up like this succeed, rather than watching people rub their hands together with glee as it goes under, which seems to be what plenty on here are waiting for.
k over it to be honest. We've got bigger things to worry about.
It would be nice to see a start-up like this succeed, rather than watching people rub their hands together with glee as it goes under, which seems to be what plenty on here are waiting for.
Andeh1 said:
The guy is clueless. The price he will need to charge for them to make money will make a new JLR Defender look like a bargain. 
He will have no scale of economy, no weight of negotiation, no supplier contacts, a new team, no experience with reliability, quality control or DFMEA/PFMEAs etc. No support network, online only sales. Then once in place the MPG will be st, the emissions average, the ride comfort non existent, NVH & basic usability will be poor....then he will need to charge £60k to sell it.
......soon to be cancelled. Watch this space.
While there is of course plenty of risk attached to this venture, do you not think he might have actually thought about some of that stuff? I very much doubt he has thought, "I'm going to build a fake Land Rover!" and then just bought a factory and some engines.He will have no scale of economy, no weight of negotiation, no supplier contacts, a new team, no experience with reliability, quality control or DFMEA/PFMEAs etc. No support network, online only sales. Then once in place the MPG will be s
t, the emissions average, the ride comfort non existent, NVH & basic usability will be poor....then he will need to charge £60k to sell it.......soon to be cancelled. Watch this space.
Max_Torque said:
er, note sure if serious regarding the H2 bit!
BTW, i drove a H2 powered 7 series, let me check, in 2001, so that's twenty years ago. And it was a bloody stupid idea even back then.......
If it was that stupid, I'm not sure that OEMs would still be investing in it, would they? It may not be perfect, or fully developed, but it may still be suitable for certain applications. BTW, i drove a H2 powered 7 series, let me check, in 2001, so that's twenty years ago. And it was a bloody stupid idea even back then.......
F20CN16 said:
Over a year until production start. Huge mistake unveiling it so early then, before the engineering is finished. At least they appear to have fixed the wipers on the latest iteration.
Why is it a huge mistake? It's called marketing. Raising brand awareness is critical for any new venture, even more so in the modern world, where there is so much noise out there. You have to keep reminding people that you're out there.Billy_Whizzzz said:
Lol. Got to laugh at the little englanders’ feeling of betrayal that a businessman needing to choose a sensible and connected place for production doesn’t choose little post Brexit britain.
Oh the irony. People complaining about bitter "little Englanders" while displaying their own bitterness about the referendum result. Both sides just need to get the fk over it to be honest. We've got bigger things to worry about.Jon_S_Rally said:
Why is it a huge mistake? It's called marketing. Raising brand awareness is critical for any new venture, even more so in the modern world, where there is so much noise out there. You have to keep reminding people that you're out there.
It's called bad marketing then. They aren't out there though. The car isn't on sale. The car can't be bought for another 15 months. By the time it's available to buy lots of people will be tired of the seeing the product. All of that initial momentum upon the reveal last July is lost now. If this goes on sale next July it'll be with a whimper.Edited by F20CN16 on Thursday 13th May 14:09
dhutch said:
British Beef said:
I love and own an old old Defender, its rusty and frequently dropping bits off and oil, but it has never failed me.
If I wanted another for working on the farm, I would buy a slightly newer proper defender.
Which is fine, till you consider the fact the 'proper' defender has already been out of production five years, so your plan is a stopgap not long term sustainable. If I wanted another for working on the farm, I would buy a slightly newer proper defender.
Because while they are very maintainable eventually running a 20yo example as a daily workhorse becomes a drag!
Daniel
Every part of a Defender is remanufactured and readily available and given the demand will be well into the future.
My defender is 24 years old and neglected and still going strong, albeit rusty and a little leaky.
If I bought a 5 year old one tomorrow, that would last at least 20 more years on the same basis, plenty for me!
British Beef said:
dhutch said:
British Beef said:
I love and own an old old Defender, its rusty and frequently dropping bits off and oil, but it has never failed me.
If I wanted another for working on the farm, I would buy a slightly newer proper defender.
Which is fine, till you consider the fact the 'proper' defender has already been out of production five years, so your plan is a stopgap not long term sustainable. If I wanted another for working on the farm, I would buy a slightly newer proper defender.
Because while they are very maintainable eventually running a 20yo example as a daily workhorse becomes a drag!
Daniel
Every part of a Defender is remanufactured and readily available and given the demand will be well into the future.
My defender is 24 years old and neglected and still going strong, albeit rusty and a little leaky.
If I bought a 5 year old one tomorrow, that would last at least 20 more years on the same basis, plenty for me!
The answer to these questions on any other car is either replace it or scrap it.
Max_Torque said:
The Grenadier is basically a copy of an old car, a sort of NonRestoMod, where you basically take all the all highly out of date and compromised engineer that was left over after 50 years of zero investment and modernisation, and copy those with new parts. Hence you get beam axles for truly terrible ride and road manners, you get a noisy, uncomfortable cabin with poor crash performance, you get catasptrophic (by 2021 stds) fuel consumption, and most importantly of all, you get a product that is hugely expensive and time consuming to build, and that takes an enourmous effort to build with a high and consistant level of quality.
They started with a clean sheet and set out to build a 4x4 utility vehicle, not a luxury SUV. All of the major decisions are logical, so long as you don't want a PCP'ed status symbol. I still want one. If it can be sold at £40k+taxes I can just about justify it. I have a 31 year old LR110 and 30 year old LR90 and I'd like something with door seals that work, better managed cathodic corrosion and an actual crash performance expectation. My LR110 needs another rebuild, 10 years and 200,000 miles after the last one and I do not think I have the stamina for another one.
The Grenadier is, according to Jim Radcliffe, likely to be a half price G-Wagen, which will do me. I don't need the last word in comfort and luxury, (my previous daily driver was a Morgan 4/4), I want a vehicle that can last and I cannot think of a current LR product that will be anything other than be a pain in the 'arris once it is out of warranty.
JLR's CEO said that their quality was costing them sales; yes, me! I have friends with new LR products and a few have had no issues, more have had a few issues and needed to get heavy with the dealer network before they were addressed and a few have had to reject some unspeakable dogs, which has required people to lawyer up. If JLR cannot build reliable vehicles, they should, at least, have a dealer network that offered exemplary customer service.
The last time Ineos put out any details, they were expecting to offer service via agricultural specialists and/or provide open source technical support. As my experience with main dealers has been universally average to rubbish, DIY with open source tech support will suit me very well.
So addressing this bit, "Hence you get beam axles for truly terrible ride and road manners, you get a noisy, uncomfortable cabin with poor crash performance, you get catasptrophic (by 2021 stds) fuel consumption,....", the LR P38's road manners were not too shabby, the Grenadier is an EU vehicle, so will need to meet or exceed EU crash standards, (the ugly front is for pedestrian protection), and the fuel consumption is not my biggest cost, depreciation is.
I don't want state of the art anything, my 'phone is about the only thing I am prepared to change regularly; I want to "Reduce reuse, recycle", not trap myself in a revolving door of PCPs, deposits, overhyped and underwhelming depreciating consumer assets.
Edited by jeremy996 on Thursday 13th May 14:34
Edited by jeremy996 on Thursday 13th May 18:33
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