RE: All-electric Caterham Seven promised
Discussion
Olivera said:
The CoG is already very low on a Caterham, and it's unlikely you'll be able to put the batteries under the floor without having the driver on stilts compared to a current Caterham. The batteries will have to mostly go in the front where the current engine is, so weight distribution is unlikely to be anything more than marginally better.
It is going to be a lot heavier, with additional weight added to support the battery packs and prevent the chassis from twisting due to the much higher torque.
One further question - what's the implications for fire/occupant safety during a crash when there's very little in the way of bodywork between the occupants and battery packs in the front or rear? Potentially a serious issue.
It is going to be a lot heavier, with additional weight added to support the battery packs and prevent the chassis from twisting due to the much higher torque.
One further question - what's the implications for fire/occupant safety during a crash when there's very little in the way of bodywork between the occupants and battery packs in the front or rear? Potentially a serious issue.
Far easier to make an all new carbon thing and do it properly. The thing is, the current generation are quite soft, so the next generation are going to be even worse. So, who will pay 80-120K for this car, with no roof, or comforts? Hence why they’re already taking about making it ‘more comfortable’. May as well just give in and say that the S3 chassis is done, it’s brilliantly simple and perfect for all manner of ICE. Leave it at that.
Olivera said:
The CoG is already very low on a Caterham, and it's unlikely you'll be able to put the batteries under the floor without having the driver on stilts compared to a current Caterham. The batteries will have to mostly go in the front where the current engine is, so weight distribution is unlikely to be anything more than marginally better.
It is going to be a lot heavier, with additional weight added to support the battery packs and prevent the chassis from twisting due to the much higher torque.
One further question - what's the implications for fire/occupant safety during a crash when there's very little in the way of bodywork between the occupants and battery packs in the front or rear? Potentially a serious issue.
A lot depends on the layout you select for the new drivetrainIt is going to be a lot heavier, with additional weight added to support the battery packs and prevent the chassis from twisting due to the much higher torque.
One further question - what's the implications for fire/occupant safety during a crash when there's very little in the way of bodywork between the occupants and battery packs in the front or rear? Potentially a serious issue.
Re: chassis strengthening, surely that depends on where you put the motor/motors?
Placement of batteries, you don't have a gearbox, fuel tank, prop shaft, potentially differential any more.
The thing I dislike about a lot of electric cars we're seeing at the moment, specifically where companies are retrofitting electric powertrains into existing cars, is that to me, it misses the point.
A caterham is the shape it is, to accommodate the engine in the front, which has to be mechanically connected to the gearbox, then the propshaft, then the diff, half shafts etc.
It seems like a lot of companies are fitting the new powertrain into the existing 'carchitecture' as opposed to coming up with clean sheet designs based around the powertrain, with all of those previous physical constraints removed.
Olivera said:
The CoG is already very low on a Caterham, and it's unlikely you'll be able to put the batteries under the floor without having the driver on stilts compared to a current Caterham. The batteries will have to mostly go in the front where the current engine is, so weight distribution is unlikely to be anything more than marginally better.
Possibility to move the cabin forward a bit, split the batteries front and back for example.Olivera said:
It is going to be a lot heavier, with additional weight added to support the battery packs and prevent the chassis from twisting due to the much higher torque.
Should be able to keep the extra lard sub 100kg.Could always de-tune the engine, power delivery can be whatever you want.
Olivera said:
One further question - what's the implications for fire/occupant safety during a crash when there's very little in the way of bodywork between the occupants and battery packs in the front or rear? Potentially a serious issue.
You mean opposed to a tank of liquid fuel that literally get's ignited inches away from your feet?take-good-care-of-the-forest-dewey said:
ZesPak said:
You mean opposed to a tank of liquid fuel that literally get's ignited inches away from your feet?
Thought the tank was behind you like on a westy? Unless something's gone badly wrong.
ddom said:
Far easier to make an all new carbon thing and do it properly. The thing is, the current generation are quite soft, so the next generation are going to be even worse. So, who will pay 80-120K for this car, with no roof, or comforts? Hence why they’re already taking about making it ‘more comfortable’. May as well just give in and say that the S3 chassis is done, it’s brilliantly simple and perfect for all manner of ICE. Leave it at that.
Is it purely to cover their development costs for the small number of cars they sell, as if that is the case they are surely finished as no-one will pay it?
Edited by SWoll on Tuesday 18th May 15:05
thewarlock said:
take-good-care-of-the-forest-dewey said:
ZesPak said:
You mean opposed to a tank of liquid fuel that literally get's ignited inches away from your feet?
Thought the tank was behind you like on a westy? Unless something's gone badly wrong.
Olivera said:
It is going to be a lot heavier, with additional weight added to support the battery packs and prevent the chassis from twisting due to the much higher torque.
BTW, just to be clear, chassis tractive effort reaction loads are proportional to POWER and not Torque. Given that you can already easily have a 300 bhp ICE Caterham, a 300 bhp electric one does not have to have a chassis any stronger...And it worth remembering that compared to the demands of braking and cornerning and critically, being stiff enough to transfer the necessary lateral loads (including longitudinal sharing of those lateral loads due to differing cross axle stiffness) the strength required to resist tractive effort are fairly minor....
SWoll said:
I'm still struggling with the justification for the suggestion it would be costing £80-120k. Was the comment not related to the cost of the drivetrain rather than the entire car, which has also also dropped subsequently? Why would an EV caterham with 1 motor and a 35kW battery cost as much as a Porsche Taycan with 2 motors, a battery 3 times the size and many other obvious and expensive differences?
Is it purely to cover their development costs for the small number of cars they sell, as if that is the case they are surely finished as no-one will pay it?
That’s where they may end up. The Hipercar Ariel thing was banded around at a very large sum of cash and 1500kg. That was 2 years ago. With the 620 coming in around £70K do you think a bespoke EV etc will be cheaper than a 4cylinder with supercharger? Is it purely to cover their development costs for the small number of cars they sell, as if that is the case they are surely finished as no-one will pay it?
Edited by SWoll on Tuesday 18th May 15:05
Olivera said:
The CoG is already very low on a Caterham, and it's unlikely you'll be able to put the batteries under the floor without having the driver on stilts compared to a current Caterham. The batteries will have to mostly go in the front where the current engine is, so weight distribution is unlikely to be anything more than marginally better.
.
Put the batteries down the transmission tunnel? Central position for the mass, both longitudinally and laterally..
Plus, if they get hot, could keep your left elbow warm in the colder months.
ddom said:
SWoll said:
I'm still struggling with the justification for the suggestion it would be costing £80-120k. Was the comment not related to the cost of the drivetrain rather than the entire car, which has also also dropped subsequently? Why would an EV caterham with 1 motor and a 35kW battery cost as much as a Porsche Taycan with 2 motors, a battery 3 times the size and many other obvious and expensive differences?
Is it purely to cover their development costs for the small number of cars they sell, as if that is the case they are surely finished as no-one will pay it?
That’s where they may end up. The Hipercar Ariel thing was banded around at a very large sum of cash and 1500kg. That was 2 years ago. With the 620 coming in around £70K do you think a bespoke EV etc will be cheaper than a 4cylinder with supercharger? Is it purely to cover their development costs for the small number of cars they sell, as if that is the case they are surely finished as no-one will pay it?
Edited by SWoll on Tuesday 18th May 15:05
Tick every box on a 620 and you'll struggle to get much above £60k, they start at £50k. It's also the most extreme example, a 420 is a a £35k car so the 620 has some serious mark up.
No way they can justify £80k+, if that's the plan then they may as well shut up shop IMHO.
braddo said:
A 700kg 7-type car with 200hp/ton can still be a tactile engaging car to drive, including with an EV powertrain.
I don't disagree that the engine noise and manual gear changes would be missed. But to actually DRIVE, a heavier EV Caterham could still be a lot of fun.
I don’t share your optimism but we’ll see when and if it happens. Whilst I can I’ll be spending my money on lightweight powerful cars. My favourite Caterham remains the R400/SLR, and I’m sure less is actually more. I don't disagree that the engine noise and manual gear changes would be missed. But to actually DRIVE, a heavier EV Caterham could still be a lot of fun.
braddo said:
Yes, no-one is arguing with that.
But it will not be possible to sell a sub-550kg ICE Caterham in 2030.
I suspect it might be ok in the UK as I'm pretty sure that we won't make the 2030 deadline. But by then, there will be loads of great electric sports cars, some of them with fantastic handling and brutal power, none cheap. The tiny, eccentric, marginal ice caterham will still have a niche, but still only for a limited period.But it will not be possible to sell a sub-550kg ICE Caterham in 2030.
So caterham absolutely have to try it, how hard can it be
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