RE: All-electric Caterham Seven promised
Discussion
ch37 said:
I'd be interested to know what those who are dead against it think Caterham should do, just slowly die?
If I was Caterham, I'd be doing two things:1) Trying to work with other small volume manufacturers to lobby for exemptions to the 2030 rules (and other painful rules for small manufacturers such as cameras etc). Needs to be pitched to the government (and public) as crucial for small businesses in the UK, which are the backbone of the remaining British motor industry. As has been said already, it's also totally irrelevant for actual UK emissions.
2) Buying up old chassis wherever possible, and pivoting my business into an "OEM restoration" business.
I think there will be a quite a few people willing to pay increasing amounts of money for more traditional and involving driving experiences once the 2030 deadline is hit. That desire is going to be met either by a small manufacturer exemption to the EV rules, or by "refreshing" existing cars.
PH User said:
Well I'm guessing this news has come as a bit of a shock to you after you repeatedly told us that Caterham hadn't been doing any work on electric cars.
Did you read the article? It's carefully worded marketing speak using words that can be read as both present and future tense, and includes no firm details whatsoever.They HAVEN'T been doing any work on electric cars. They've announced that they're finally doing so now... they haven't actually got anything to show yet - not even detailed specs.
They're not saying that they have a developed idea ready to launch: they're saying that they have an idea that they're beginning to look at, and are aiming to have something in a couple of year's time.
... Which means that their new Japanese owner has just lit a rocket under their arses and told them to get on with something that they should have had sorted years ago. I suspect that one of his very early questions was something along the lines of "What do you f
king mean, you've got no strategy to deal with electrification? You'd better have something on my desk by Monday morning, or the whole fking useless lot of you are fired...". 
Since they have a long and distinguished history of stealing ideas and credit from other companies, they could actually do a lot worse than approach the guy who did the WiSPER for Westfield (ex-Lotus F1 Chief Designer, Martin Ogilvie). He's getting on a bit now, but he was still doing the odd bit of consultancy last time I met him, and was still sharp as a knife. I know for a fact that he has a bunch of old drawings he could dust off for them, because I've seen them.
Edited by Equus on Thursday 13th May 19:29
They either do something like this or the company dies/becomes a spares provider/restorer.
They need to be innovative with it IMO. Motors and batteries instead of engines, gearboxes and diffs gives a lot of scope. Are EVs allowed to use regen braking only? Do away with old school brakes...perhaps go single pedal?
Batteries have plenty of scope for siting. I wonder if something could be done to allow battery packs to be dropped out really easily, say at a track. Range for road use isn't really a big deal. Long stints in 7s aren't what they're about. But track use will chew the battery quickly. If you could trailer a couple of spares with the car for a quick 10min swap....recharging whilst out on track.
Part of me thinks, like snotrag, that if they're going down this route, it may be an opportunity missed not to move away from the shape/dimensions and really leverage the flexibility an EV drivetrain could present - still tiny and as low weight as possible, but a different shape.
Will be interesting to see what they make of it. I wonder if they're working with Sheffield Uni on theirs?
They need to be innovative with it IMO. Motors and batteries instead of engines, gearboxes and diffs gives a lot of scope. Are EVs allowed to use regen braking only? Do away with old school brakes...perhaps go single pedal?
Batteries have plenty of scope for siting. I wonder if something could be done to allow battery packs to be dropped out really easily, say at a track. Range for road use isn't really a big deal. Long stints in 7s aren't what they're about. But track use will chew the battery quickly. If you could trailer a couple of spares with the car for a quick 10min swap....recharging whilst out on track.
Part of me thinks, like snotrag, that if they're going down this route, it may be an opportunity missed not to move away from the shape/dimensions and really leverage the flexibility an EV drivetrain could present - still tiny and as low weight as possible, but a different shape.
Will be interesting to see what they make of it. I wonder if they're working with Sheffield Uni on theirs?
ducnick said:
I struggle to see the point of a reversing camera in a 7… just look out the back and down. I guess you could always take the film to Boots for developing then watch stuff disappear in the distance behind you on your home cinefilm projector.
I’d be more concerned about the chassis coping with the torque, it’s pretty unusable in 620 form and the sweet spot is 200hp or so for the road. A far better idea would be to partner with 3 cylinder lightweight engines. Given that one of the best power plants ever used was 75kg or so the batteries alone will screw up distribution and obviously it’ll have the standard range issues so sod all use on track. MKnight702 said:
They are not late to the party. Absolutely fking nobody is selling (or has been wanting to buy) lightweight sevenesque electric sports cars. Not sure I see the point of Caterham offering an EV product until the late 2020s so there is no mad rush (not that they shouldn’t start planning). The 2030 deadline is going to drive solid demand for petrol powered Caterhams for the next decade!
ddom said:
I’d be more concerned about the chassis coping with the torque, it’s pretty unusable in 620 form and the sweet spot is 200hp or so for the road. A far better idea would be to partner with 3 cylinder lightweight engines. Given that one of the best power plants ever used was 75kg or so the batteries alone will screw up distribution and obviously it’ll have the standard range issues so sod all use on track.
So much talk, so little understanding. No Caterham owner is looking for 450 miles from a "tank" of fuel as they potter to the pub on a summer Sunday or thrash their ancient steed round a couple of laps of Thruxton.Electrifying a Caterham? No, no, no and no. Unless your idea of a "big night out" is half a pint of shandy with a vegan quorn-steak and chips.
ddom said:
I’d be more concerned about the chassis coping with the torque...
Torque is electronically managable, and fed to the tarmac via rubber fuses that we call 'tyres', but perhaps more importantly is likely to be fed into the chassis completely differently with an EV.With the current Seven, you've got an engine at the front twisting against a diff at the back, with a fairly boiled-noodle-like chassis in between that it therefore makes a fair job of tying in knots.
With an EV, it's possible to package the motors at the back axle (with a separate motor at the front, if you wish), so that the powertrain doesn't torsionally load the chassis at all. And as has been pointed out above, it's not especially difficult to contrive individual torque vectoring to each wheel.
rockin said:
So much talk, so little understanding. No Caterham owner is looking for 450 miles from a "tank" of fuel as they potter to the pub on a summer Sunday or thrash their ancient steed round a couple of laps of Thruxton.
Electrifying a Caterham? No, no, no and no. Unless your idea of a "big night out" is half a pint of shandy with a vegan quorn-steak and chips.
How many Caterham’s have you driven/owned I wonder? You do realise those ‘ancient steeds’ would hand you your backside in those soft GT cars you drive Electrifying a Caterham? No, no, no and no. Unless your idea of a "big night out" is half a pint of shandy with a vegan quorn-steak and chips.
Equus said:
Torque is electronically managable, and fed to the tarmac via rubber fuses that we call 'tyres', but perhaps more importantly is likely to be fed into the chassis completely differently with an EV.
With the current Seven, you've got an engine at the front twisting against a diff at the back, with a fairly boiled-noodle-like chassis in between that it therefore makes a fair job of tying in knots.
With an EV, it's possible to package the motors at the back axle (with a separate motor at the front, if you wish), so that the powertrain doesn't torsionally load the chassis at all. And as has been pointed out above, it's not especially difficult to contrive individual torque vectoring to each wheel.
Yes, thanks for pointing out how electrical motors are regulated. Huge power Caterhams are just a one dimensional toy which break often. A hobbled silent motor sounds wonderful. Not. With the current Seven, you've got an engine at the front twisting against a diff at the back, with a fairly boiled-noodle-like chassis in between that it therefore makes a fair job of tying in knots.
With an EV, it's possible to package the motors at the back axle (with a separate motor at the front, if you wish), so that the powertrain doesn't torsionally load the chassis at all. And as has been pointed out above, it's not especially difficult to contrive individual torque vectoring to each wheel.
braddo said:
Not sure I see the point of Caterham offering an EV product until the late 2020s so there is no mad rush...
The point you're missing, as I've been banging on about for some time on this forum, is that actually building the thing is relatively easy. There have been three different generations of EV Westfield already.The far bigger problem that Caterham has to face is overcoming the resistance of its heavily blinkered and reactionary current customer base.
As has been demonstrated many times (the S4, the 21, the Caterola, the CSR, the Aeroseven. the Alpine collaboration...), this bunch of particularly bigoted and myopic sheep aren't willing to buy anything but the 'traditional' S3.
Westfield has adopted a different strategy - they have diversified to the degree that they could probably stop building kit cars tomorrow and their balance sheet would barely suffer - but Caterham has no alternative but to effectively develop an entirely new customer base, sufficient in size to support the company, and it will take them every day of the seven years that may be all they have left to them to pull that off.
As is amply demonstrated by this thread (and every one like it), Caterham's problem is the sort of people who buy Caterhams.
ddom said:
Huge power Caterhams are just a one dimensional toy which break often.
You really are priceless, clattering away angrily at your keyboard with nothing to bring to the party.Caterhams are great fun for 20 minutes. Do I want one in my garage? No. But unlike you I don't feel the need to snipe and sneer at them.
hufggfg said:
If I was Caterham, I'd be doing two things:
1) Trying to work with other small volume manufacturers to lobby for exemptions to the 2030 rules (and other painful rules for small manufacturers such as cameras etc). Needs to be pitched to the government (and public) as crucial for small businesses in the UK, which are the backbone of the remaining British motor industry. As has been said already, it's also totally irrelevant for actual UK emissions.
2) Buying up old chassis wherever possible, and pivoting my business into an "OEM restoration" business.
I think there will be a quite a few people willing to pay increasing amounts of money for more traditional and involving driving experiences once the 2030 deadline is hit. That desire is going to be met either by a small manufacturer exemption to the EV rules, or by "refreshing" existing cars.
I agree they should lobby, but doubt it will come off and there is no way you can base a business on the possibility (slim) that the government will help you out.1) Trying to work with other small volume manufacturers to lobby for exemptions to the 2030 rules (and other painful rules for small manufacturers such as cameras etc). Needs to be pitched to the government (and public) as crucial for small businesses in the UK, which are the backbone of the remaining British motor industry. As has been said already, it's also totally irrelevant for actual UK emissions.
2) Buying up old chassis wherever possible, and pivoting my business into an "OEM restoration" business.
I think there will be a quite a few people willing to pay increasing amounts of money for more traditional and involving driving experiences once the 2030 deadline is hit. That desire is going to be met either by a small manufacturer exemption to the EV rules, or by "refreshing" existing cars.
Electric good... everything else bad- people have spoken etc.
So sadly they have to roll dice.... I’d hope Efuels, hydrogen maybe may help but to wait any longer would be suicide.
ducnick said:
I struggle to see the point of a reversing camera in a 7… just look out the back and down. I guess you could always take the film to Boots for developing then watch stuff disappear in the distance behind you on your home cinefilm projector.
It's the new 360 aerial-view cameras, 112" touch screens and gesture control infotainment that's missing and should be a priority.
Equus said:
braddo said:
Not sure I see the point of Caterham offering an EV product until the late 2020s so there is no mad rush...
...The far bigger problem that Caterham has to face is overcoming the resistance of its heavily blinkered and reactionary current customer base.
As is amply demonstrated by this thread (and every one like it), Caterham's problem is the sort of people who buy Caterhams.
There is a decade to get used to EVs. The pace of change and acceptance in just the last 18months is astonishing - no one has made Prius jokes for years now; the number of Tesla 3s and other pure electric vehicles i see on the roads in the south east is nearly unbelievable.
At the same time as massive demand for petrol caterhams in the next decade, there will also be normalisation of EVs for those same buyers, and when the day comes that a petrol car can’t be bought, there will still be strong demand for lightweight, engaging electric cars.
And the Caterham EV will be the best of the tactile lightweights, just as they are today.
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