RE: Megane 275 Cup-S vs. Honda Civic Type R (FK8)
Discussion
Zarco said:
Itsallicanafford said:
(Note, i'm not using the word 'hot hatch' as in reality, both cars are too big, powerful and difficult to place on a B road where a hot hatch should excel).
Don't agree with that. Yes it takes some adjustment compared to a Clio, but the Mégane is not difficult to place.AlexMG said:
I'd love to see if regular 275s can be tweeked to match the cup s or if this is truly the one to get.
Just buy any car with the Cup chassis (that way you get the LSD), then you can tweak away from there. While the Ohlins are good, there are loads of aftermarket damper options out there, so it's very possible to turn even an early 250 into something that could match an Ohlins-equipped Cup-S. They're all essentially the same car. Aside from the styling, the mechanical changes from 250, through 265, to 275, weren't that significant.Itsallicanafford said:
Both are Fantastic cars, however the Ohlins equipped Megane could be (is) the greatest handling front wheel drive performance car ever made. (Note, i'm not using the word 'hot hatch' as in reality, both cars are too big, powerful and difficult to place on a B road where a hot hatch should excel).
I had no issues placing my 265 on any road to be honest. It's not the smallest car, but it's hardly an S-Class in size.macky17 said:
As an fk8 type r owner plus the previous owner of that very megane, I feel qualified to comment.
First of all, this megane is remapped - by Engine Dynamics in Kelvedon - to about 295bhp. In the end I regretted having it done as although of course the car was faster it became very unenjoyable on a wet road. Yes, the Renault's lsd is much more aggressive than the Honda's which can be fun, but on a greasy road it tugs left and right to the point you have to back off. The remap exaggerated this and made the car frustrating over the winter. In the Honda you never need to back off, rain or shine, so it's fun all year round.
The Renault is rawer and more engaging. When you are up for it, it feels very special. Day to day it's harder to live with. I played with those Ohlins continuously, dialling them as far soft as they go, and the car was still too hard on the 19s - the A12 being a particular torture (this was before they needed a rebuild). Honda less extreme even in +R mode but far easier to live with.
In summary, if you want a weekend toy wherein you can pick and choose your road/journey then the Renault will provide greater thrills. The rest of the time the Honda is faster, more comfortable, more precise, more useable and has a massively better drivetrain. Buy both!
A bit surprised by this to be honest. My standard 265 put its power down very well. I can imagine a remap would make it a bit more of a handful, but isn't that part of the fun? I'm not sure I'd want it to have amazing traction all the time. That's part of why I chopped my Golf R in for my Megane; the Golf felt like it could never be flustered by anything. It had total traction 100% of the time, almost unlimited grip, but it just felt dull because of it. A bit of wheelspin, a bit of torque steer here and there, it makes the experience as you feel like you're actually having to drive the car.First of all, this megane is remapped - by Engine Dynamics in Kelvedon - to about 295bhp. In the end I regretted having it done as although of course the car was faster it became very unenjoyable on a wet road. Yes, the Renault's lsd is much more aggressive than the Honda's which can be fun, but on a greasy road it tugs left and right to the point you have to back off. The remap exaggerated this and made the car frustrating over the winter. In the Honda you never need to back off, rain or shine, so it's fun all year round.
The Renault is rawer and more engaging. When you are up for it, it feels very special. Day to day it's harder to live with. I played with those Ohlins continuously, dialling them as far soft as they go, and the car was still too hard on the 19s - the A12 being a particular torture (this was before they needed a rebuild). Honda less extreme even in +R mode but far easier to live with.
In summary, if you want a weekend toy wherein you can pick and choose your road/journey then the Renault will provide greater thrills. The rest of the time the Honda is faster, more comfortable, more precise, more useable and has a massively better drivetrain. Buy both!
Absolutely agree on the daily thing. The Megane is at the more extreme end in terms of hot hatches, and is a little compromised compared to some rivals. Mine had the 19s, but I should have put 18s on it. I think that would have improved it.
NGK210 said:
How can anything be described as “exemplary” when worldwide there are a multiple owner-forum threads lamenting its various fundamental and ongoing flaws? For example:
https://www.civinfo.com/threads/gearbox-issues.398...
Let’s have some balance, please.
NGK210 said:
Matt Bird said:
…Honda sells … perhaps the best manual gearboxes on sale …An exemplary six-speed manual.
How can anything be described as “exemplary” when worldwide there are a multiple owner-forum threads lamenting its various fundamental and ongoing flaws? For example:
https://www.civinfo.com/threads/gearbox-issues.398...
Let’s have some balance, please.
Jon_S_Rally said:
AlexMG said:
I'd love to see if regular 275s can be tweeked to match the cup s or if this is truly the one to get.
Just buy any car with the Cup chassis (that way you get the LSD), then you can tweak away from there. While the Ohlins are good, there are loads of aftermarket damper options out there, so it's very possible to turn even an early 250 into something that could match an Ohlins-equipped Cup-S. They're all essentially the same car. Aside from the styling, the mechanical changes from 250, through 265, to 275, weren't that significant.Itsallicanafford said:
Both are Fantastic cars, however the Ohlins equipped Megane could be (is) the greatest handling front wheel drive performance car ever made. (Note, i'm not using the word 'hot hatch' as in reality, both cars are too big, powerful and difficult to place on a B road where a hot hatch should excel).
I had no issues placing my 265 on any road to be honest. It's not the smallest car, but it's hardly an S-Class in size.macky17 said:
As an fk8 type r owner plus the previous owner of that very megane, I feel qualified to comment.
First of all, this megane is remapped - by Engine Dynamics in Kelvedon - to about 295bhp. In the end I regretted having it done as although of course the car was faster it became very unenjoyable on a wet road. Yes, the Renault's lsd is much more aggressive than the Honda's which can be fun, but on a greasy road it tugs left and right to the point you have to back off. The remap exaggerated this and made the car frustrating over the winter. In the Honda you never need to back off, rain or shine, so it's fun all year round.
The Renault is rawer and more engaging. When you are up for it, it feels very special. Day to day it's harder to live with. I played with those Ohlins continuously, dialling them as far soft as they go, and the car was still too hard on the 19s - the A12 being a particular torture (this was before they needed a rebuild). Honda less extreme even in +R mode but far easier to live with.
In summary, if you want a weekend toy wherein you can pick and choose your road/journey then the Renault will provide greater thrills. The rest of the time the Honda is faster, more comfortable, more precise, more useable and has a massively better drivetrain. Buy both!
A bit surprised by this to be honest. My standard 265 put its power down very well. I can imagine a remap would make it a bit more of a handful, but isn't that part of the fun? I'm not sure I'd want it to have amazing traction all the time. That's part of why I chopped my Golf R in for my Megane; the Golf felt like it could never be flustered by anything. It had total traction 100% of the time, almost unlimited grip, but it just felt dull because of it. A bit of wheelspin, a bit of torque steer here and there, it makes the experience as you feel like you're actually having to drive the car.First of all, this megane is remapped - by Engine Dynamics in Kelvedon - to about 295bhp. In the end I regretted having it done as although of course the car was faster it became very unenjoyable on a wet road. Yes, the Renault's lsd is much more aggressive than the Honda's which can be fun, but on a greasy road it tugs left and right to the point you have to back off. The remap exaggerated this and made the car frustrating over the winter. In the Honda you never need to back off, rain or shine, so it's fun all year round.
The Renault is rawer and more engaging. When you are up for it, it feels very special. Day to day it's harder to live with. I played with those Ohlins continuously, dialling them as far soft as they go, and the car was still too hard on the 19s - the A12 being a particular torture (this was before they needed a rebuild). Honda less extreme even in +R mode but far easier to live with.
In summary, if you want a weekend toy wherein you can pick and choose your road/journey then the Renault will provide greater thrills. The rest of the time the Honda is faster, more comfortable, more precise, more useable and has a massively better drivetrain. Buy both!
Absolutely agree on the daily thing. The Megane is at the more extreme end in terms of hot hatches, and is a little compromised compared to some rivals. Mine had the 19s, but I should have put 18s on it. I think that would have improved it.
NGK210 said:
How can anything be described as “exemplary” when worldwide there are a multiple owner-forum threads lamenting its various fundamental and ongoing flaws? For example:
https://www.civinfo.com/threads/gearbox-issues.398...
Let’s have some balance, please.
te roads around my area were more than the Renault could always cope with. That or my leaden right foot...Jon_S_Rally said:
AlexMG said:
I'd love to see if regular 275s can be tweeked to match the cup s or if this is truly the one to get.
Just buy any car with the Cup chassis (that way you get the LSD), then you can tweak away from there. While the Ohlins are good, there are loads of aftermarket damper options out there, so it's very possible to turn even an early 250 into something that could match an Ohlins-equipped Cup-S. They're all essentially the same car. Aside from the styling, the mechanical changes from 250, through 265, to 275, weren't that significant.The Ohlins are an impressive bit of kit but the Renault Cup suspension is also brilliant plus doesn't need expensive rebuilds and doesn't suffer from corrosion issues like the Ohlins. In my opinion the special options you had available on the Cup-S aren't worth it. The Akra exhaust was £2.5k but a £40 mid-pipe delete on the standard exhaust gives the same effect, and there's a great range of aftermarket coilovers available which give more adjustability than the Ohlins.
My advice would be buy on condition and history and don't get hung up on the special edition cars. The standard cup chassis car is already fantastic and will save you a chunk of money vs the special models which you can then spend on mods if you so wish.
I think the pricing point is interesting.
Last of the Megs were available with huge discounts. Cup-S were easily going for under £20k with no options. Bargain. Optioned up pre-reg cars with list of £35k were probably more like £25k. Another Bargain.
So the options may look pricey new but if you can get a 2015 Trophy with Ohlins, Akra & Recaros for £16k. You are not paying much of a premium over a 2012 std cup for maybe £12k.
Agree the base car driving experience is probably much the same. But if you can get all the bells & whisles on a special edition for a little more. Why not.
Covid has pulled prices up. But with new hot hatches now at £40k price point its hard not to see that holding these up long term.
Its not like its Ford RS where the paint colour doubles the price.
Last of the Megs were available with huge discounts. Cup-S were easily going for under £20k with no options. Bargain. Optioned up pre-reg cars with list of £35k were probably more like £25k. Another Bargain.
So the options may look pricey new but if you can get a 2015 Trophy with Ohlins, Akra & Recaros for £16k. You are not paying much of a premium over a 2012 std cup for maybe £12k.
Agree the base car driving experience is probably much the same. But if you can get all the bells & whisles on a special edition for a little more. Why not.
Covid has pulled prices up. But with new hot hatches now at £40k price point its hard not to see that holding these up long term.
Its not like its Ford RS where the paint colour doubles the price.
macky17 said:
Oh I agree 100%. I owned a golf r also, directly between the megane and the civic. Dull with naff steering. The ctr still gives you that adjustability together with the slightly twitchy feel of powerful fwd but it's just much better tied down. Could be the bumpy ste roads around my area were more than the Renault could always cope with. That or my leaden right foot...
For those who have owned the Golf r, could you comment on whether the r was more predictable and secure handling on wet roads than the megane and Civic r? Are there times in the wet where the Honda or Renault could surprise or catch you with a unexpected slide or spinning front wheels? I always have found certain 4 wheel drive cars (like Audis and Subarus) to have more predicable traction more of time than front wheel drive. thanks jte roads around my area were more than the Renault could always cope with. That or my leaden right foot...The rarity of the Meg is ridiculous. I have had one for 3 years and I see a local white & grey one once every couple of months.
I think they were selling around a 100 a year so even though the Cup-S is not limited edition there are only around 100 of them. About 90 275 trophys. Compared to around 130 R26-R say.
Never seen another yellow one.
I see more Lambos & Maclarens than RS Meganes.
I think they were selling around a 100 a year so even though the Cup-S is not limited edition there are only around 100 of them. About 90 275 trophys. Compared to around 130 R26-R say.
Never seen another yellow one.
I see more Lambos & Maclarens than RS Meganes.
jl4069 said:
For those who have owned the Golf r, could you comment on whether the r was more predictable and secure handling on wet roads than the megane and Civic r? Are there times in the wet where the Honda or Renault could surprise or catch you with a unexpected slide or spinning front wheels? I always have found certain 4 wheel drive cars (like Audis and Subarus) to have more predicable traction more of time than front wheel drive. thanks j
I think tyres are a big factor. My Meg came with Cup-2 tyres. Terrible across winter. Not that great normal driving in summer. Replaced with PS4s. Loads better. Traction may still be a problem in low gears sub 30 in the wet.Also have a subaru. No traction issues. Lifeless steering.
Difference between a wheel try to put down 140 bhp vs 75 bhp to the road.
Not a Diesel said:
I think the pricing point is interesting.
Last of the Megs were available with huge discounts. Cup-S were easily going for under £20k with no options. Bargain. Optioned up pre-reg cars with list of £35k were probably more like £25k. Another Bargain.
So the options may look pricey new but if you can get a 2015 Trophy with Ohlins, Akra & Recaros for £16k. You are not paying much of a premium over a 2012 std cup for maybe £12k.
Agree the base car driving experience is probably much the same. But if you can get all the bells & whisles on a special edition for a little more. Why not.
Covid has pulled prices up. But with new hot hatches now at £40k price point its hard not to see that holding these up long term.
Its not like its Ford RS where the paint colour doubles the price.
Good point RE pricing of later Megane vs older ones. I started looking at 250s in late 2016. Ended up buying a nearly new 2016 275 Nav in Feb '17 as it seemed to offer way more value and had all the bits I wanted (Cup chassis/18s/Recaros).Last of the Megs were available with huge discounts. Cup-S were easily going for under £20k with no options. Bargain. Optioned up pre-reg cars with list of £35k were probably more like £25k. Another Bargain.
So the options may look pricey new but if you can get a 2015 Trophy with Ohlins, Akra & Recaros for £16k. You are not paying much of a premium over a 2012 std cup for maybe £12k.
Agree the base car driving experience is probably much the same. But if you can get all the bells & whisles on a special edition for a little more. Why not.
Covid has pulled prices up. But with new hot hatches now at £40k price point its hard not to see that holding these up long term.
Its not like its Ford RS where the paint colour doubles the price.
MyV10BarksAndBites said:
Zarco said:
Itsallicanafford said:
(Note, i'm not using the word 'hot hatch' as in reality, both cars are too big, powerful and difficult to place on a B road where a hot hatch should excel).
Don't agree with that. Yes it takes some adjustment compared to a Clio, but the Mégane is not difficult to place.
here is a shot of my old 106 and one of our Cup-S
See the much smaller bonnet, slimmer A pillar and more upright stance of the 106. You could look down and see the corner of the car and place it on a 6 pence. You just cannot do that in the Megane, you sit lower, the A pillar is much larger and the bonnet is longer.
Also, the 106 is a much smaller footprint in general which means that on a B road, even and tight one, you had enough space to weave between lines, building in a margin of error which does not exist due to the bigger physical size of the Megane. Just look at me in the 106, I look massive! (im 5' 8''), its tiny compared to the Megane.
Edited by Itsallicanafford on Saturday 22 May 20:48
Edited by Itsallicanafford on Saturday 22 May 20:49
Interesting to read owners comment on poor ride on the Megane. I had the 18" Tibors on my Cup-S based on an article I read somewhere that they were the RenaultSport engineers preferred option. I thought mine had a great ride, I had a VW Golf previously and a Mk7 Fiesta ST at the same time - the latter was very brittle riding by comparison.
I bought this a few weeks ago. It's totally mega and, while it's undeniably firm riding on the Cup shocks and I have investigated the ohlins as an alternative, the more I drive it the more acceptable I find it. Probably leave it as is, the ride is still much better than the Mk7 Fiesta ST that was my previous daily. I have though tested the Civic and I recall the ride being unbelievably good actually, and the gear shift being top notice. The megane doesn't have such a pleasant shift action, it works fine but isn't the main attraction. The engine is very strong though and the chassis is hilarious, lift off oversteer is just a corner away basically. Cabin is nice enough, recaros are great and it has all the toys. Looking forward to getting it onto a track sooner rather than later.
Kawasicki said:
I drove the Civic a couple of months ago. A fun car, a fast one too... massive torque steer induced weaving on corner exits reminded me of the old Rover 620 Turbo. Cemented for me that I'm not really a fan of fwd.
Had a few Megan’s, we ran our 275 Trophy on 18’s which worked well with the Ohlins in my experience, we ran pretty much full soft on the road and it demolished undulating B roads. Torque steer eventually became tiresome for me though, just got fed up of driving around it. BigChiefmuffinAgain said:
Nice article. Interesting too that though both cars have been lauded to the hills by the motoring press, neither have been great sales successes.
This is simply not what the vast majority of even hot hatch buyers want.
On the civic side, it may be down to lack of good lease dealsThis is simply not what the vast majority of even hot hatch buyers want.
Days Like These said:
STOP saying ‘half a decade’, just say 5 years
Even ‘half a dozen’ is pretty stupid outside of eggs
I agree, I think the aim is to make five years seem like the cars are from different eras to justify the comparison test. Even ‘half a dozen’ is pretty stupid outside of eggs
We have two quick Hondas, one 16 years old, one 21 years old, and a TVR at 29 years old, those really are from a different era.
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