Has JCB saved engines?
Discussion
sherman said:
Hydrogen is the way forward. It will use the same sort of set up as we have now with fuel stations.
Electric cars are like the equvilent of the minidisc.
A stop gap nobody really needed and superseeded by a better system a few years later(streaming) .
Electric cars - hydrogen cars
Mini disks where an alternative to CDs and not replaced by streamingElectric cars are like the equvilent of the minidisc.
A stop gap nobody really needed and superseeded by a better system a few years later(streaming) .
Electric cars - hydrogen cars
That came many years after the format was dead
And the problem with hydrogen is is really isn't cost effective to produce currently and progress so far is slow improving it
Chris32345 said:
sherman said:
Hydrogen is the way forward. It will use the same sort of set up as we have now with fuel stations.
Electric cars are like the equvilent of the minidisc.
A stop gap nobody really needed and superseeded by a better system a few years later(streaming) .
Electric cars - hydrogen cars
Mini disks where an alternative to CDs and not replaced by streamingElectric cars are like the equvilent of the minidisc.
A stop gap nobody really needed and superseeded by a better system a few years later(streaming) .
Electric cars - hydrogen cars
That came many years after the format was dead
And the problem with hydrogen is is really isn't cost effective to produce currently and progress so far is slow improving it
https://www.enginetechnologyinternational.com/news...
Chris32345 said:
And the problem with hydrogen is is really isn't cost effective to produce currently and progress so far is slow improving it
And the trouble with EV is the batteries are too heavy and take too long to change and that's before we get into being able to produce enough electricity to charge everyone's car. I think hydrogen is the way forward. Its going to be so much more useful for trains, lorries, ships, airplanes, domestic boilers, power stations, etc. You could argue we're going to need hydrogen before EV can be fully utilised, at which point they become obsolete.
Of course there might always be a use for EV in towns and cities, and if the battery tech come maybe elsewhere as well. But ultimately that will be determined by cost.
And let's not forget, once you can pump hydrogen, its going to be much easier to tax.
Apparently big money is currently betting that cars will be EV and bigger stuff will be hydrogen or gas powered.
Battery tech is still improving and we are already at the stage where cars can do over 300 miles and charge in less than half an hour.
Yes it needs a few years for that tech to filter down but it's happening. That's why manufacturers are saying they will be EV ahead of the ban, which I doubt will ever happen, as it wil just be niche manufacturers left producing hobby/enthusiasts cars.
And how do you generate electricity? Well increasingly from solar and wind. There's a lot more of that in the pipeline
Battery tech is still improving and we are already at the stage where cars can do over 300 miles and charge in less than half an hour.
Yes it needs a few years for that tech to filter down but it's happening. That's why manufacturers are saying they will be EV ahead of the ban, which I doubt will ever happen, as it wil just be niche manufacturers left producing hobby/enthusiasts cars.
And how do you generate electricity? Well increasingly from solar and wind. There's a lot more of that in the pipeline
covmutley said:
Apparently big money is currently betting that cars will be EV and bigger stuff will be hydrogen or gas powered.
Battery tech is still improving and we are already at the stage where cars can do over 300 miles and charge in less than half an hour.
Yes it needs a few years for that tech to filter down but it's happening. That's why manufacturers are saying they will be EV ahead of the ban, which I doubt will ever happen, as it wil just be niche manufacturers left producing hobby/enthusiasts cars.
And how do you generate electricity? Well increasingly from solar and wind. There's a lot more of that in the pipeline
It all going to depend on the tech and cost. A EV capable of 300 miles is great, but if the batteries weigh 1/2 ton it pretty wasteful if the car only does 15 miles a day for 95% of the time. If they are just going to use hydrogen for big stuff, where does that leave large vans that need a 2 ton payload and 4x4 that tow all day on motorways? EV will either have to shed its weight or hydrogen will have to filter down and then it will come down to cost. Battery tech is still improving and we are already at the stage where cars can do over 300 miles and charge in less than half an hour.
Yes it needs a few years for that tech to filter down but it's happening. That's why manufacturers are saying they will be EV ahead of the ban, which I doubt will ever happen, as it wil just be niche manufacturers left producing hobby/enthusiasts cars.
And how do you generate electricity? Well increasingly from solar and wind. There's a lot more of that in the pipeline
sherman said:
Hydrogen is the way forward. It will use the same sort of set up as we have now with fuel stations.
Electric cars are like the equvilent of the minidisc.
A stop gap nobody really needed and superseeded by a better system a few years later(streaming) .
Electric cars - hydrogen cars
minidisc was killed by the portable mp3 players and then the ipod. Electric cars are like the equvilent of the minidisc.
A stop gap nobody really needed and superseeded by a better system a few years later(streaming) .
Electric cars - hydrogen cars
Streaming isn't "better" - it's more convenient for some.
Most streaming services are lossy. The hi-res streaming isn't "better" than playing a hi-res track from a NAS.
Streaming isnt energy efficient...Every time a hi-res track is streamed a polar bear gets it.
But best of luck to JCB and anyone else looking to hydrogen as the fuel. More environmentally friendly than battery packs mined by orphans...
Edited by Miserablegit on Wednesday 2nd June 07:47
Chris32345 said:
And the problem with hydrogen is is really isn't cost effective to produce currently and progress so far is slow improving it
It’s quite ironic that the most abundant element on Earth is so inaccessible. Producing hydrogen needs either a significant input of energy, or it needs to be cracked from fossil fuels, which isn’t exactly in keeping with what we are trying to achieve.
For the purposes of powering a vehicle, hydrogen is not a source of energy, it’s an energy storage medium, much like a battery.
BEVs and hydrogen vehicles are equally flawed without large amounts of clean, sustainable energy to throw at the problem.
xstian said:
A EV capable of 300 miles is great, but if the batteries weigh 1/2 ton it pretty wasteful if the car only does 15 miles a day for 95% of the time.
An ICE doing the same mileage barely warms up. In fact modern diesels, with AdBlue and DPF have a nasty habit of putting condensation into their oil at those sorts of sustained, short journey profiles.Add in the indisputable fact that, however 'clean' the creation of the energy is or is not, an EV gives out zero tailpipe emissions and, due to regenerative braking, a lot less brake dust too.
I'd say for cars, EV is a good future bet, but not so for HGVs.
Absolutely, but road cars are suited to BEV.
Heavy industry will get on board with FCEVs. They don't have much choice, batteries alone aren't workable, and in some cases even a step change in battery tech wouldn't be good enough (remote locations, non road legal machinery, very long distances).
There's definitely a place for hydrogen, let's hope the BEV enthusiasts see and accept that - lots of resistance (sorry) from some segments of the battery tech proponents but the truth is both techs are needed, and they will end up in the places best suited to them as that's how tech, business and the world works.
Heavy industry will get on board with FCEVs. They don't have much choice, batteries alone aren't workable, and in some cases even a step change in battery tech wouldn't be good enough (remote locations, non road legal machinery, very long distances).
There's definitely a place for hydrogen, let's hope the BEV enthusiasts see and accept that - lots of resistance (sorry) from some segments of the battery tech proponents but the truth is both techs are needed, and they will end up in the places best suited to them as that's how tech, business and the world works.
Digga said:
xstian said:
A EV capable of 300 miles is great, but if the batteries weigh 1/2 ton it pretty wasteful if the car only does 15 miles a day for 95% of the time.
An ICE doing the same mileage barely warms up. In fact modern diesels, with AdBlue and DPF have a nasty habit of putting condensation into their oil at those sorts of sustained, short journey profiles.Add in the indisputable fact that, however 'clean' the creation of the energy is or is not, an EV gives out zero tailpipe emissions and, due to regenerative braking, a lot less brake dust too.
I'd say for cars, EV is a good future bet, but not so for HGVs.
The weight of an EV is only a fraction as important as the weight of an ICE.
The weight of an ICE is always hampering its efficiency, whereas the weight of an EV sometimes hampers its efficiency, and sometimes increases regeneration, depending on whether you're slowing or not.
I think I read the impact of an incremental kg on an EV is only about 30% of the impact of an incremental kg on an ICE.
Hydrogen is a lot further off for viability than BEV, drove into the office today, saw numerous Electric vehicles, An ID3, four Teslas, couple of Leafs that I noticed.
How many Hydrogen cars, er none, cant say I have ever seen one.
EV isnt MiniDisk, it is what is happening, it is well on its way, that ID3 is the first EV on the road I live on.
The batteries are getting better, the grumbling about range and charging will drop as they improve like all tech always does but the end result with be one or more electric motors powering the cars of the future.
I dont want one, no interest beyond the tech, I like engines but I can see where this is going and it isnt Hydrogen as the main fuel.
As for how will the grid cope, we are using less power than ten years ago due to efficiency improvements and lowered consumption so we managed before and all those oil companies will be hustling to get a piece of the pie as their oil goose starts looking a bit sickly for persona transport, if not aviation, plastics, shipping and road transport.
You dont have to be an "Eco Warrior" to want quieter, cleaner transport in towns and cities, and electricity can be generated from burning coal, but it can also be generated by all those wind turbines around the place, cant generate petrol from a turbine. It always makes me laugh petrolheads rattling on about the environmental damage from EV's, those poor kids int he Congo mining cobat, Damn your Greta with your electrical cars ! completely ignoring the environmental impact of oil as a fuel, all the oil spills, explosions, habitat destruction.
Hurtling round in a metal box on your own most of the time will never be environmentally sound, if you are bothered get a bicycle, touting eco issues from a massive SUV or V8 Sports car is a shaky position.
I really cant see the entire car industry doing an about turn and stopping development of EV's as a blind alley to concentrate on Hydrogen, Toyota has the Mirai, and who else has a Hydrogen car you can buy ? How many manufactures have EVs in the market or are launching them, that would be pretty much all of them.
How many Hydrogen cars, er none, cant say I have ever seen one.
EV isnt MiniDisk, it is what is happening, it is well on its way, that ID3 is the first EV on the road I live on.
The batteries are getting better, the grumbling about range and charging will drop as they improve like all tech always does but the end result with be one or more electric motors powering the cars of the future.
I dont want one, no interest beyond the tech, I like engines but I can see where this is going and it isnt Hydrogen as the main fuel.
As for how will the grid cope, we are using less power than ten years ago due to efficiency improvements and lowered consumption so we managed before and all those oil companies will be hustling to get a piece of the pie as their oil goose starts looking a bit sickly for persona transport, if not aviation, plastics, shipping and road transport.
You dont have to be an "Eco Warrior" to want quieter, cleaner transport in towns and cities, and electricity can be generated from burning coal, but it can also be generated by all those wind turbines around the place, cant generate petrol from a turbine. It always makes me laugh petrolheads rattling on about the environmental damage from EV's, those poor kids int he Congo mining cobat, Damn your Greta with your electrical cars ! completely ignoring the environmental impact of oil as a fuel, all the oil spills, explosions, habitat destruction.
Hurtling round in a metal box on your own most of the time will never be environmentally sound, if you are bothered get a bicycle, touting eco issues from a massive SUV or V8 Sports car is a shaky position.
I really cant see the entire car industry doing an about turn and stopping development of EV's as a blind alley to concentrate on Hydrogen, Toyota has the Mirai, and who else has a Hydrogen car you can buy ? How many manufactures have EVs in the market or are launching them, that would be pretty much all of them.
Fastpedeller said:
From my perspective, the frustrating thing is that we've taken over 100 years perfecting the IC engine, and now we're about to scrap it! If cars were lighter/smaller (like the 70's 80's) we'd get even better economy and emissions, but hey-ho electric is the way.
It's hardly perfected though, is it? It loses more energy to worse-than-useless heat than it does to useful power.Look for oil. Find oil. Pull oil out of the sea. Process it. Take it to a petrol station. Store it. Move it into a car. Store it.... Throw most of it into the atmosphere as heat and noise and unpleasant gas and particles.
It's a similar level of efficiency to my wife's hobby of acquiring, storing, and disposing of fresh fruit and vegetables.
Fastpedeller said:
From my perspective, the frustrating thing is that we've taken over 100 years perfecting the IC engine, and now we're about to scrap it! If cars were lighter/smaller (like the 70's 80's) we'd get even better economy and emissions, but hey-ho electric is the way.
If a manufacturer went the other way and made cars lighter and smaller, they'd sell fewer cars.Manufacturers make cars that customers want to buy, alongside complying with regulations imposed by customers' governments.
If there was a groundswell of support for slower, lighter, smaller cars then OEMs would be foolish not to supply that demand.
But as it is, the majority want more space, more comfort, more features, more gadgets, more refinement, more safety, more speed, more grip, more torque, more more more.
Something I said quite some time ago was I think we're entering a world where we have battery and hydrogen instead of petrol and diesel. There will be mixtures of vehicles like we have small diesel cars and large petrol cars, and vice versa, now. They both have their advantages and will both find a suitable market. I prefer hydrogen myself, whether that's electric or combustion.
Didn't Toyota release footage of a Yaris hydrogen combustion vehicle recently?
Didn't Toyota release footage of a Yaris hydrogen combustion vehicle recently?
SpeckledJim said:
Digga said:
xstian said:
A EV capable of 300 miles is great, but if the batteries weigh 1/2 ton it pretty wasteful if the car only does 15 miles a day for 95% of the time.
An ICE doing the same mileage barely warms up. In fact modern diesels, with AdBlue and DPF have a nasty habit of putting condensation into their oil at those sorts of sustained, short journey profiles.Add in the indisputable fact that, however 'clean' the creation of the energy is or is not, an EV gives out zero tailpipe emissions and, due to regenerative braking, a lot less brake dust too.
I'd say for cars, EV is a good future bet, but not so for HGVs.
The weight of an EV is only a fraction as important as the weight of an ICE.
The weight of an ICE is always hampering its efficiency, whereas the weight of an EV sometimes hampers its efficiency, and sometimes increases regeneration, depending on whether you're slowing or not.
I think I read the impact of an incremental kg on an EV is only about 30% of the impact of an incremental kg on an ICE.
It's not the same equation for anything that carries load as its main purpose, whether that's people or goods.
Haulage, public transport, heavy industry etc need rapid fill times, and need not to be carrying 10 tons of batteries at the expense of payload if they could carry 2 tons of fuel cell and fuel tanks and a much smaller battery.
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