RE: Musk cancels Tesla Model S Plaid+
Discussion
Bennet said:
Teslas are meant to be supercar fast. But I have never once yet seen one being driven quickly or storming away from an A road roundabout. People just seem to drive them like normal cars. I keep expecting to see something dramatic and so far, nothing. And it's not like there are a shortage of them on the roads. I see them all the time.
Not sure this is a meaningful data point: I very rarely see any high-performance car (and there are lots around) being driven in such a manner.The only exception (being in Germany) is people blasting along in the fast lane of the autobahn... but the majority of the fastest-moving vehicles are anonymous-looking VAG estates, and not 'prestige' vehicles.
mft said:
Bennet said:
Teslas are meant to be supercar fast. But I have never once yet seen one being driven quickly or storming away from an A road roundabout. People just seem to drive them like normal cars. I keep expecting to see something dramatic and so far, nothing. And it's not like there are a shortage of them on the roads. I see them all the time.
Not sure this is a meaningful data point: I very rarely see any high-performance car (and there are lots around) being driven in such a manner.The only exception (being in Germany) is people blasting along in the fast lane of the autobahn... but the majority of the fastest-moving vehicles are anonymous-looking VAG estates, and not 'prestige' vehicles.
Bennet said:
Teslas are meant to be supercar fast. But I have never once yet seen one being driven quickly or storming away from an A road roundabout. People just seem to drive them like normal cars. I keep expecting to see something dramatic and so far, nothing. And it's not like there are a shortage of them on the roads. I see them all the time.
Seen it twice. One I instigated, and the other was the Tesla driver being an absolute helmet and almost causing an accident.The one I instigated was a P100D off a set of lights onto an empty dual carriageway. I was in my M140i at the time. I'm sure he told anyone who'd listen that I tried to race him and had my backside handed to me, but in reality I knew it wouldn't be a contest. I just wanted to see how much faster it was than my car, which was not exactly tardy in a straight line by most standards.
The Tesla squatted and disappeared. I might as well have not been trying. The 0-30 ish acceleration in particular appeared near instantaneous, but then it just carried on pulling away.
The other was a Model X which overtook a car that was waiting behind a parked car on our side of the road while an oncoming van came through. The Tesla shot out and powered past the car and the parked car, almost hitting the van head on. The acceleration of the Tesla was ridiculous, but the driving was appalling.
What I have noticed is how slowly they seem to be driven on motorways. 60-70 in lane 1 almost without exception.
Bennet said:
Teslas are meant to be supercar fast. But I have never once yet seen one being driven quickly or storming away from an A road roundabout. People just seem to drive them like normal cars. I keep expecting to see something dramatic and so far, nothing. And it's not like there are a shortage of them on the roads. I see them all the time.
You should of seen me when I took a m3p for a test drive 
Felt nauseous for the rest of the day
Limpet said:
What I have noticed is how slowly they seem to be driven on motorways. 60-70 in lane 1 almost without exception.
The relationship between speed and energy/fuel consumption is totally different vs. an ICE car. Unlike an ICE car, motorway driving is generally bad for range, and it's impacted greatly by higher speed.Limpet said:
Bennet said:
Teslas are meant to be supercar fast. But I have never once yet seen one being driven quickly or storming away from an A road roundabout. People just seem to drive them like normal cars. I keep expecting to see something dramatic and so far, nothing. And it's not like there are a shortage of them on the roads. I see them all the time.
Seen it twice. One I instigated, and the other was the Tesla driver being an absolute helmet and almost causing an accident.The one I instigated was a P100D off a set of lights onto an empty dual carriageway. I was in my M140i at the time. I'm sure he told anyone who'd listen that I tried to race him and had my backside handed to me, but in reality I knew it wouldn't be a contest. I just wanted to see how much faster it was than my car, which was not exactly tardy in a straight line by most standards.
The Tesla squatted and disappeared. I might as well have not been trying. The 0-30 ish acceleration in particular appeared near instantaneous, but then it just carried on pulling away.
The other was a Model X which overtook a car that was waiting behind a parked car on our side of the road while an oncoming van came through. The Tesla shot out and powered past the car and the parked car, almost hitting the van head on. The acceleration of the Tesla was ridiculous, but the driving was appalling.
What I have noticed is how slowly they seem to be driven on motorways. 60-70 in lane 1 almost without exception.
And that is the older P100D, not the Plaid, cant wait to see that tested, in the context of ridiculous numbers at least.
J4CKO said:
Limpet said:
Bennet said:
Teslas are meant to be supercar fast. But I have never once yet seen one being driven quickly or storming away from an A road roundabout. People just seem to drive them like normal cars. I keep expecting to see something dramatic and so far, nothing. And it's not like there are a shortage of them on the roads. I see them all the time.
Seen it twice. One I instigated, and the other was the Tesla driver being an absolute helmet and almost causing an accident.The one I instigated was a P100D off a set of lights onto an empty dual carriageway. I was in my M140i at the time. I'm sure he told anyone who'd listen that I tried to race him and had my backside handed to me, but in reality I knew it wouldn't be a contest. I just wanted to see how much faster it was than my car, which was not exactly tardy in a straight line by most standards.
The Tesla squatted and disappeared. I might as well have not been trying. The 0-30 ish acceleration in particular appeared near instantaneous, but then it just carried on pulling away.
The other was a Model X which overtook a car that was waiting behind a parked car on our side of the road while an oncoming van came through. The Tesla shot out and powered past the car and the parked car, almost hitting the van head on. The acceleration of the Tesla was ridiculous, but the driving was appalling.
What I have noticed is how slowly they seem to be driven on motorways. 60-70 in lane 1 almost without exception.
And that is the older P100D, not the Plaid, cant wait to see that tested, in the context of ridiculous numbers at least.
Interestingly, he also said the immediate delivery of torque made it difficult to drive in the snow. That is not something others have said.
I had a P100D (I hope it was that, it was at least a 100D) that left me for absolute dead when I was in my 458. I was caught off guard, but even planting it he was too far in front for it to be safe for me to continue accelerating.
On paper I think my car was faster, but being unprepared coupled with the instantaneous acceleration and no gearing make it a lot more one-sided than Top Trumps numbers would have you believe.
On paper I think my car was faster, but being unprepared coupled with the instantaneous acceleration and no gearing make it a lot more one-sided than Top Trumps numbers would have you believe.
Edited by Durzel on Wednesday 9th June 16:32
Talksteer said:
Wood for trees.
Tesla is delivering a 1100bhp family car with 400 miles of range next week and you are complaining that they are no longer committing to deliver a 1100+bhp family car with 520 miles range next year.
I think Elon Musk's engineering leadership is pretty credible, even if SpaceX/Tesla are late it's normally because they are doing something which is a massive leap and planning to do it in a fraction of time their rivals would.
Musk is the 1-3rd richest person in the world and likely to pull ahead fairly decisively in the near future as Tesla continues to execute and SpaceX delivers internet to underserved people in every free country in the world.
Unless he dies or does something very illegal he's probably going to be the worlds first trillionaire.
The Africans will appreciate the ability to Google search whilst down at the watering hole.Tesla is delivering a 1100bhp family car with 400 miles of range next week and you are complaining that they are no longer committing to deliver a 1100+bhp family car with 520 miles range next year.
I think Elon Musk's engineering leadership is pretty credible, even if SpaceX/Tesla are late it's normally because they are doing something which is a massive leap and planning to do it in a fraction of time their rivals would.
Musk is the 1-3rd richest person in the world and likely to pull ahead fairly decisively in the near future as Tesla continues to execute and SpaceX delivers internet to underserved people in every free country in the world.
Unless he dies or does something very illegal he's probably going to be the worlds first trillionaire.
Isn't Bozo already a Trillionaire?
TX.
hyphen said:
Talksteer said:
- The Model S was 2 years late and about 6 years before anyone produced a remotely comparable car
Even now, the customers don't want it, they are quiet happy with ICE. It's the national governments who are legislating and forcing the change. Hence VAG and everyone else is ramping up.
Tesla failed to make a profitable market for EVs, subsidies and selling environmental credits kept them afloat.
So it can be said customer's didn't/don't know that they want EVs.
The credit story is BS in the extreme it represents about 1-2% of Tesla revenue, they break even while doubling in size every two years. That is very difficult for an industrial company.
It was the leap in range that was the interesting thing about the plus, suggesting a step change in capability. Fair play if that can find its way into more reasonably specked Tesla models rather than what was otherwise an unneeded bragmobile but disappointing if the battery tech just isn’t ready for prime time.
hyphen said:
There was no public demand for EVs, ICE cars were selling well so the manufacturers had no reason to go this route. As the customers didn't want it. Only 1% of sales were EV.
Even now, the customers don't want it, they are quiet happy with ICE. It's the national governments who are legislating and forcing the change. Hence VAG and everyone else is ramping up.
Tesla failed to make a profitable market for EVs, subsidies and selling environmental credits kept them afloat.
Tesla's gross margin in cars is industry-leading: "Tesla’s automotive gross margins are already among the best in the industry at about 21% in 2019, versus about 17% for Toyota - one of the most efficient automakers, and 10% for GM." - ForbesEven now, the customers don't want it, they are quiet happy with ICE. It's the national governments who are legislating and forcing the change. Hence VAG and everyone else is ramping up.
Tesla failed to make a profitable market for EVs, subsidies and selling environmental credits kept them afloat.
The many times that Tesla, the overall company, has not posted a profit has usually been due to their choice to invest the absolute maximum back into growth (e.g. factories, R&D, etc.) - a similar approach to that taken by Amazon for many years. That many in the press and on the internet have suggested this means the company is fundamentally unprofitable is probably somewhere between misunderstanding how Tesla works (as it's not the traditional way for a company to be run) and misinformation (because of the huge short positions against Tesla over recent years).
mft said:
Tesla's gross margin in cars is industry-leading: "Tesla’s automotive gross margins are already among the best in the industry at about 21% in 2019, versus about 17% for Toyota - one of the most efficient automakers, and 10% for GM." - Forbes
The many times that Tesla, the overall company, has not posted a profit has usually been due to their choice to invest the absolute maximum back into growth (e.g. factories, R&D, etc.) - a similar approach to that taken by Amazon for many years. That many in the press and on the internet have suggested this means the company is fundamentally unprofitable is probably somewhere between misunderstanding how Tesla works (as it's not the traditional way for a company to be run) and misinformation (because of the huge short positions against Tesla over recent years).
Mentioning the biggest tax fraud, and the largest loss making manufacturer in the same sentence kind of devalues any point you are trying to make? The many times that Tesla, the overall company, has not posted a profit has usually been due to their choice to invest the absolute maximum back into growth (e.g. factories, R&D, etc.) - a similar approach to that taken by Amazon for many years. That many in the press and on the internet have suggested this means the company is fundamentally unprofitable is probably somewhere between misunderstanding how Tesla works (as it's not the traditional way for a company to be run) and misinformation (because of the huge short positions against Tesla over recent years).
Terminator X said:
Talksteer said:
Wood for trees.
Tesla is delivering a 1100bhp family car with 400 miles of range next week and you are complaining that they are no longer committing to deliver a 1100+bhp family car with 520 miles range next year.
I think Elon Musk's engineering leadership is pretty credible, even if SpaceX/Tesla are late it's normally because they are doing something which is a massive leap and planning to do it in a fraction of time their rivals would.
Musk is the 1-3rd richest person in the world and likely to pull ahead fairly decisively in the near future as Tesla continues to execute and SpaceX delivers internet to underserved people in every free country in the world.
Unless he dies or does something very illegal he's probably going to be the worlds first trillionaire.
The Africans will appreciate the ability to Google search whilst down at the watering hole.Tesla is delivering a 1100bhp family car with 400 miles of range next week and you are complaining that they are no longer committing to deliver a 1100+bhp family car with 520 miles range next year.
I think Elon Musk's engineering leadership is pretty credible, even if SpaceX/Tesla are late it's normally because they are doing something which is a massive leap and planning to do it in a fraction of time their rivals would.
Musk is the 1-3rd richest person in the world and likely to pull ahead fairly decisively in the near future as Tesla continues to execute and SpaceX delivers internet to underserved people in every free country in the world.
Unless he dies or does something very illegal he's probably going to be the worlds first trillionaire.
Isn't Bozo already a Trillionaire?
TX.
Bezos would have about $250 billion if he hadn't divorced. Elon has v good prenups.
Seriously with his current share plan his % stake in Tesla goes up as the value goes up. It is feasible that Tesla could be worth $2-3 billion in the next decade which would be $500-750 billion for his stake.
He owns just under 50% of SpaceX, if Starlink works that would eventually have a revenue in the region of $50-100 billion and a market value of $500-1000 billion.
That would get Elon Musk's net worth past a trillion dollars.
mft said:
The relationship between speed and energy/fuel consumption is totally different vs. an ICE car. Unlike an ICE car, motorway driving is generally bad for range, and it's impacted greatly by higher speed.
Its actually not really different. Electric cars are better around town because they don't have the idle losses (which is why stop-start on ICE was invented).On the motorway both cars are overcoming aerodynamic drag and rolling resistance which is where the energy is going. If you drive an ICE car faster on the motorway it uses more fuel.
The key difference is that due to the charging inconvenience when out and about, an EV driver is typically more conscious of their range and therefore are more conscious about their energy use.
Athboy501 said:
Its actually not really different. Electric cars are better around town because they don't have the idle losses (which is why stop-start on ICE was invented).
On the motorway both cars are overcoming aerodynamic drag and rolling resistance which is where the energy is going. If you drive an ICE car faster on the motorway it uses more fuel.
The key difference is that due to the charging inconvenience when out and about, an EV driver is typically more conscious of their range and therefore are more conscious about their energy use.
ICE cars are more efficient at a steady cruise, which is why you get more miles out of a tank on Motoways & DCs, even if you're doing 80+ MPH. EVs suffer big range drop-offs at higher speeds but excel at town driving where they can recoup some energy.On the motorway both cars are overcoming aerodynamic drag and rolling resistance which is where the energy is going. If you drive an ICE car faster on the motorway it uses more fuel.
The key difference is that due to the charging inconvenience when out and about, an EV driver is typically more conscious of their range and therefore are more conscious about their energy use.
Clivey said:
Athboy501 said:
Its actually not really different. Electric cars are better around town because they don't have the idle losses (which is why stop-start on ICE was invented).
On the motorway both cars are overcoming aerodynamic drag and rolling resistance which is where the energy is going. If you drive an ICE car faster on the motorway it uses more fuel.
The key difference is that due to the charging inconvenience when out and about, an EV driver is typically more conscious of their range and therefore are more conscious about their energy use.
ICE cars are more efficient at a steady cruise, which is why you get more miles out of a tank on Motoways & DCs, even if you're doing 80+ MPH. EVs suffer big range drop-offs at higher speeds but excel at town driving where they can recoup some energy.On the motorway both cars are overcoming aerodynamic drag and rolling resistance which is where the energy is going. If you drive an ICE car faster on the motorway it uses more fuel.
The key difference is that due to the charging inconvenience when out and about, an EV driver is typically more conscious of their range and therefore are more conscious about their energy use.
Might be…
Tesla doesn’t have them.
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