RE: Musk cancels Tesla Model S Plaid+
Discussion
griffdude said:
It’s just a shame they look so dated, have poor interiors & are dull to drive.
Does a Model 3 look dated ? The S has at least evolved a bit even if it looks a bit like a Jag XF at first glance.Interior looks ok, dont think anyone has died from it yet, what needs to be done ? I thought the S was quite nice inside.
Dull to drive, thats the crux of it, once you get past straight line speed and the novelty, is it actually enjoyable ? Like I said, not tried one except as a passenger which was impressive.
I think the mainstream (ICE) manufacturers are catching up, its very like when Apple took mostly existing technologies, plus a bit of innovation and skillfully made them work together to create the iPhone, all the rest seemed to go collectively "Oh s
t" and were playing catch up whilst still cocking about with crap like Symbian non touch screens that got progressively fiddlier and more arcane. In the meantime Apple dominated the market, continued to innovate (like them or loathe them) and it took a while before any Android was as good or better, by which time Apples brand and ecosystem was fully developed. Tesla is pretty much following that trajectory but from a start what, 13 years ago with an electrified Elise (How we laughed) ? a lot of the old guard dont have the same cachet with younger folk, they dont want ICE as they dont tend to have the affinity for engines through exposure the same, Tesla is up there and has a massive following and plenty of folk would love one, I am no fanboy of Musk disciple but he has created something pretty impressive and I cant only see them dominating. And a lot of grizzled old farts will call them "Sheeple" for buying something good, because its popular.
J4CKO said:
griffdude said:
It’s just a shame they look so dated, have poor interiors & are dull to drive.
Does a Model 3 look dated ? The S has at least evolved a bit even if it looks a bit like a Jag XF at first glance.Interior looks ok, dont think anyone has died from it yet, what needs to be done ? I thought the S was quite nice inside.
Dull to drive, thats the crux of it, once you get past straight line speed and the novelty, is it actually enjoyable ? Like I said, not tried one except as a passenger which was impressive.
I think the mainstream (ICE) manufacturers are catching up, its very like when Apple took mostly existing technologies, plus a bit of innovation and skillfully made them work together to create the iPhone, all the rest seemed to go collectively "Oh s
t" and were playing catch up whilst still cocking about with crap like Symbian non touch screens that got progressively fiddlier and more arcane. In the meantime Apple dominated the market, continued to innovate (like them or loathe them) and it took a while before any Android was as good or better, by which time Apples brand and ecosystem was fully developed. Tesla is pretty much following that trajectory but from a start what, 13 years ago with an electrified Elise (How we laughed) ? a lot of the old guard dont have the same cachet with younger folk, they dont want ICE as they dont tend to have the affinity for engines through exposure the same, Tesla is up there and has a massive following and plenty of folk would love one, I am no fanboy of Musk disciple but he has created something pretty impressive and I cant only see them dominating. And a lot of grizzled old farts will call them "Sheeple" for buying something good, because its popular.
Externally, they’re not as handsome as an XF & do not have the styling nuances.
The supercharger network is impressive though.
The European BEVs have caught up & Tesla need to get off their laurels...
really annoying
2 seconds 0-60 and 390 mile range!!
Why is it that reviews keep talking about EV's as if they are a form of ICE.
In an ICE off you go and do both with minimal time for a fill up.
What I really what to know about an EV is can I go from 0-60 in 2 seconds and still get home?
2 seconds 0-60 and 390 mile range!!
Why is it that reviews keep talking about EV's as if they are a form of ICE.
In an ICE off you go and do both with minimal time for a fill up.
What I really what to know about an EV is can I go from 0-60 in 2 seconds and still get home?
griffdude said:
J4CKO said:
griffdude said:
It’s just a shame they look so dated, have poor interiors & are dull to drive.
Does a Model 3 look dated ? The S has at least evolved a bit even if it looks a bit like a Jag XF at first glance.Interior looks ok, dont think anyone has died from it yet, what needs to be done ? I thought the S was quite nice inside.
Dull to drive, thats the crux of it, once you get past straight line speed and the novelty, is it actually enjoyable ? Like I said, not tried one except as a passenger which was impressive.
I think the mainstream (ICE) manufacturers are catching up, its very like when Apple took mostly existing technologies, plus a bit of innovation and skillfully made them work together to create the iPhone, all the rest seemed to go collectively "Oh s
t" and were playing catch up whilst still cocking about with crap like Symbian non touch screens that got progressively fiddlier and more arcane. In the meantime Apple dominated the market, continued to innovate (like them or loathe them) and it took a while before any Android was as good or better, by which time Apples brand and ecosystem was fully developed. Tesla is pretty much following that trajectory but from a start what, 13 years ago with an electrified Elise (How we laughed) ? a lot of the old guard dont have the same cachet with younger folk, they dont want ICE as they dont tend to have the affinity for engines through exposure the same, Tesla is up there and has a massive following and plenty of folk would love one, I am no fanboy of Musk disciple but he has created something pretty impressive and I cant only see them dominating. And a lot of grizzled old farts will call them "Sheeple" for buying something good, because its popular.
Externally, they’re not as handsome as an XF & do not have the styling nuances.
The supercharger network is impressive though.
The European BEVs have caught up & Tesla need to get off their laurels...
I they did that in 12/13 years from pretty much standstill, I really wouldn't bet against them for the next 12/13 years.
J4CKO said:
Elon Musk is many things but I dont think he is one to rest on his Laurels, from a dead start he now has a four car model range.
Tesla may have had the “dead start” but Elon didn’t. Despite what everything says, Musk is not a founder of Tesla. He was an early investor with a small amount of cash. When he was ready to ramp up and get serious he made it a requirement that he be called a founder. This was several years after the company started. The true founders released a video recently explaining that it was just Musk and his way so they let him have the title.
Edited by h0b0 on Tuesday 8th June 13:06
h0b0 said:
J4CKO said:
Elon Musk is many things but I dont think he is one to rest on his Laurels, from a dead start he now has a four car model range.
Tesla may have had the “dead start” but Elon didn’t. Dispute what everything says, Musk is not a founder of Tesla. He was an early investor with a small amount of cash. When he was ready to ramp up and get serious he made it a requirement that he be called a founder. This was several years after the company started. The true founders released a video recently explaining that it was just Musk and his way so they let him have the title.
Durzel said:
J4CKO said:
I wonder how often normal owners will launch their car like that, occasionally to see what it can do, few times to scare passengers and then less often as it will lose its novelty and there aren’t that many opportunities to let a two plus tonne car accelerate like that.
Plus they are still massively rapid without the full Plaid launch which I assume if it’s like other Tesla’s needs a bit of preparation to heat the batteries etc.
Plus, it’s actually quite unpleasant/uncomfortable and I have only been in lower powered ones, it’s a neat party piece but even the lowest powered one is way in excess of what you need 99.9 percent of the time.
As folk get used to them it will lose its shock and awe factor and just be like annoying passengers by doing a full emergency stop for the sake of it. Long way to go on that as was speaking to someone who said they wouldnt have a “Milk float” as they aren’t fast enough, I showed him a YouTube video of a Tesla out dragging (at least initially) a Lamborghini and he said it must have been tuned, still thought his old 3.2 Jag XJ would be quicker in the real world and how he loves upsetting the boy racers in their hot hatches, maybe a mk1 Golf GTI with a compression problem.
I like fast cars but I’ve been somewhat humbled even by just my Model 3. It feels like a rollercoaster on WOT, presumably due to the instant torque. It makes me feel mildly queasy if I’m not anticipating it, in a way I’ve not previously felt owning even faster cars.Plus they are still massively rapid without the full Plaid launch which I assume if it’s like other Tesla’s needs a bit of preparation to heat the batteries etc.
Plus, it’s actually quite unpleasant/uncomfortable and I have only been in lower powered ones, it’s a neat party piece but even the lowest powered one is way in excess of what you need 99.9 percent of the time.
As folk get used to them it will lose its shock and awe factor and just be like annoying passengers by doing a full emergency stop for the sake of it. Long way to go on that as was speaking to someone who said they wouldnt have a “Milk float” as they aren’t fast enough, I showed him a YouTube video of a Tesla out dragging (at least initially) a Lamborghini and he said it must have been tuned, still thought his old 3.2 Jag XJ would be quicker in the real world and how he loves upsetting the boy racers in their hot hatches, maybe a mk1 Golf GTI with a compression problem.
I have seen they are planning rename the slow of the motorway the Tesla lane.
I’ve always found it a bit puzzling that 0-60 times are still a major focus of the Model S and particularly Model X. 0-60 in 1.99 seconds must feel like something else, but unless you’re on your own in the car I can’t imagine it’s something you’d do regularly.
With the X the presumption is you’d have your family with you most of the time, or at least your partner. A people carrier that does 0-60 in 3 seconds? I can’t see most partners being agreeable to regular hard launches, particularly given the unique torquey nature of the car as mentioned previously. “Hey kids it’s been a long day, fancy throwing up?”. Maybe I’m just being a bit of a stick in the mud, but I’d presume the most important elements of a EV SUV are range, space and comfort, not speed.
At this point I think everyone knows that EVs cream ICE cars in acceleration. Getting the range up is surely the priority? Save the 0-60 obsession for the Roadster.
Musk is capable of great things and has already delivered many industry changing products. If he did not involve himself in childish acts, including calling people pedophiles when he is not getting the attention he craves, then I would have respect for him. I could take some missed deadlines and some changes in spec. After all, that is what a concept car is!
My issue is that he constantly lies and he does not care about the impact. It is a terrible message to the next generation as a role model in the same way that Trump made it normal to lie about everything and laugh off the consequences.
That is my issue with Elon.....
How about Tesla? When I drove one it changed my opinion of EVs completely. I was blown away by the idea and very nearly bought a Model S. I would have done if my job had not changed. That was 8 years ago. The issue I have with Tesla is they came to the market with the S and marked a point in time when EVs could serve as an only car for families. What have they done since? I even acknowledge there is a range of cars, but there is only so much I can make with flower, eggs and water. Battery tech has been improved but only evolutionary changes. We have gone from the performance battery being 85 to 100. We all know it is the battery tech that will take EVs to the next level. What about the other tech in the car? They made it fart. How about the motors? Nothing really to write home about.
I think under Elon, Tesla first hit a path of innovation that promised so much. But, they have gone to BS smoke and mirrors with products that will never be produced including the Tesla Semi which just is not possible at this time and is not even a Tesla original scam! That may have been Nikola who first claimed to have a fulling working truck which was just a model rolling down a hill.
My issue is that he constantly lies and he does not care about the impact. It is a terrible message to the next generation as a role model in the same way that Trump made it normal to lie about everything and laugh off the consequences.
That is my issue with Elon.....
How about Tesla? When I drove one it changed my opinion of EVs completely. I was blown away by the idea and very nearly bought a Model S. I would have done if my job had not changed. That was 8 years ago. The issue I have with Tesla is they came to the market with the S and marked a point in time when EVs could serve as an only car for families. What have they done since? I even acknowledge there is a range of cars, but there is only so much I can make with flower, eggs and water. Battery tech has been improved but only evolutionary changes. We have gone from the performance battery being 85 to 100. We all know it is the battery tech that will take EVs to the next level. What about the other tech in the car? They made it fart. How about the motors? Nothing really to write home about.
I think under Elon, Tesla first hit a path of innovation that promised so much. But, they have gone to BS smoke and mirrors with products that will never be produced including the Tesla Semi which just is not possible at this time and is not even a Tesla original scam! That may have been Nikola who first claimed to have a fulling working truck which was just a model rolling down a hill.
J4CKO said:
Dull to drive, thats the crux of it, once you get past straight line speed and the novelty, is it actually enjoyable ? Like I said, not tried one except as a passenger which was impressive.
I don't disagree but isn't this the way most "mainstream" cars are going. Is a Model 3 any more dull than a diesel A4, 3 Series?Unless you drive a hot hatch or something specialst I think most cars have become dull (due to weight and electronics) compared to 20yrs ago.
C70R said:
I had no idea how angry Elon Musk made people.
EM: "Here's an EV which can do 400 miles and 0-60mph in 2secs"
The internet: "Yet another broken promise. What a c*ck."
It's a wonder, isn't it? In 2019 he said "here's a compact exec for £56k that has the real-world performance of a McLaren F1 and does 125mpg" and the internet said "what a b*5tard".EM: "Here's an EV which can do 400 miles and 0-60mph in 2secs"
The internet: "Yet another broken promise. What a c*ck."
I suspect the hatred boils down to one of 3 reasons:
1) He has almost single-handedly killed ICE cars by proving the viability of BEVs. There's no doubt Boris wouldn't have put the ICE ban in place if Elon Musk had stuck to rockets. As enthusiasts, you've got to resent that a bit even if it was inevitable.
2) He's one of the richest people in the world and for a while held the title of the richest - Brits love to have a chip on their shoulder about wealth ("he must be an ar5e, right?")
3) A lot of money is spent, especially in America, in negative press against him. Mud sticks, especially when he has the tendency to stick his foot in his mouth as well.
nicfaz said:
C70R said:
I had no idea how angry Elon Musk made people.
EM: "Here's an EV which can do 400 miles and 0-60mph in 2secs"
The internet: "Yet another broken promise. What a c*ck."
It's a wonder, isn't it? In 2019 he said "here's a compact exec for £56k that has the real-world performance of a McLaren F1 and does 125mpg" and the internet said "what a b*5tard".EM: "Here's an EV which can do 400 miles and 0-60mph in 2secs"
The internet: "Yet another broken promise. What a c*ck."
I suspect the hatred boils down to one of 3 reasons:
1) He has almost single-handedly killed ICE cars by proving the viability of BEVs. There's no doubt Boris wouldn't have put the ICE ban in place if Elon Musk had stuck to rockets. As enthusiasts, you've got to resent that a bit even if it was inevitable.
2) He's one of the richest people in the world and for a while held the title of the richest - Brits love to have a chip on their shoulder about wealth ("he must be an ar5e, right?")
3) A lot of money is spent, especially in America, in negative press against him. Mud sticks, especially when he has the tendency to stick his foot in his mouth as well.
I dont like him because he lies, it's pretty simple. He could have the same product and not lie.
h0b0 said:
J4CKO said:
Elon Musk is many things but I dont think he is one to rest on his Laurels, from a dead start he now has a four car model range.
Tesla may have had the “dead start” but Elon didn’t. Despite what everything says, Musk is not a founder of Tesla. He was an early investor with a small amount of cash. When he was ready to ramp up and get serious he made it a requirement that he be called a founder. This was several years after the company started. The true founders released a video recently explaining that it was just Musk and his way so they let him have the title.
Edited by h0b0 on Tuesday 8th June 13:06
He raised over 100m in various rounds of funding, with the first car coming a few years later. Even then it was just a limited run Elise variant. 15 years on Tesla have expanded globally selling multiple models and are an 80bn company.
I'm not sure what the two original guys think they achieved in the original 9 months, but on balance I would say Musk was the person who built Tesla as we know it today.
WestyCarl said:
J4CKO said:
Dull to drive, thats the crux of it, once you get past straight line speed and the novelty, is it actually enjoyable ? Like I said, not tried one except as a passenger which was impressive.
I don't disagree but isn't this the way most "mainstream" cars are going. Is a Model 3 any more dull than a diesel A4, 3 Series?Unless you drive a hot hatch or something specialst I think most cars have become dull (due to weight and electronics) compared to 20yrs ago.
I was thinking as a choice, based on performance figures vs a performance ice, but its not really that kind of choice, definitely more a competitor for one of those mentioned.
98elise said:
h0b0 said:
J4CKO said:
Elon Musk is many things but I dont think he is one to rest on his Laurels, from a dead start he now has a four car model range.
Tesla may have had the “dead start” but Elon didn’t. Despite what everything says, Musk is not a founder of Tesla. He was an early investor with a small amount of cash. When he was ready to ramp up and get serious he made it a requirement that he be called a founder. This was several years after the company started. The true founders released a video recently explaining that it was just Musk and his way so they let him have the title.
Edited by h0b0 on Tuesday 8th June 13:06
The two founders had been in business about 9 months with no money and no car when Musk joined them.
He raised over 100m in various rounds of funding, with the first car coming a few years later. Even then it was just a limited run Elise variant. 15 years on Tesla have expanded globally selling multiple models and are an 80bn company.
I'm not sure what the two original guys think they achieved in the original 9 months, but on balance I would say Musk was the person who built Tesla as we know it today.
98elise said:
h0b0 said:
J4CKO said:
Elon Musk is many things but I dont think he is one to rest on his Laurels, from a dead start he now has a four car model range.
Tesla may have had the “dead start” but Elon didn’t. Despite what everything says, Musk is not a founder of Tesla. He was an early investor with a small amount of cash. When he was ready to ramp up and get serious he made it a requirement that he be called a founder. This was several years after the company started. The true founders released a video recently explaining that it was just Musk and his way so they let him have the title.
Edited by h0b0 on Tuesday 8th June 13:06
He raised over 100m in various rounds of funding, with the first car coming a few years later. Even then it was just a limited run Elise variant. 15 years on Tesla have expanded globally selling multiple models and are an 80bn company.
I'm not sure what the two original guys think they achieved in the original 9 months, but on balance I would say Musk was the person who built Tesla as we know it today.
h0b0 said:
98elise said:
h0b0 said:
J4CKO said:
Elon Musk is many things but I dont think he is one to rest on his Laurels, from a dead start he now has a four car model range.
Tesla may have had the “dead start” but Elon didn’t. Despite what everything says, Musk is not a founder of Tesla. He was an early investor with a small amount of cash. When he was ready to ramp up and get serious he made it a requirement that he be called a founder. This was several years after the company started. The true founders released a video recently explaining that it was just Musk and his way so they let him have the title.
Edited by h0b0 on Tuesday 8th June 13:06
He raised over 100m in various rounds of funding, with the first car coming a few years later. Even then it was just a limited run Elise variant. 15 years on Tesla have expanded globally selling multiple models and are an 80bn company.
I'm not sure what the two original guys think they achieved in the original 9 months, but on balance I would say Musk was the person who built Tesla as we know it today.
Musk doesn't like being labeled investor because he's very hands on with design/engineering etc.
98elise said:
h0b0 said:
98elise said:
h0b0 said:
J4CKO said:
Elon Musk is many things but I dont think he is one to rest on his Laurels, from a dead start he now has a four car model range.
Tesla may have had the “dead start” but Elon didn’t. Despite what everything says, Musk is not a founder of Tesla. He was an early investor with a small amount of cash. When he was ready to ramp up and get serious he made it a requirement that he be called a founder. This was several years after the company started. The true founders released a video recently explaining that it was just Musk and his way so they let him have the title.
Edited by h0b0 on Tuesday 8th June 13:06
He raised over 100m in various rounds of funding, with the first car coming a few years later. Even then it was just a limited run Elise variant. 15 years on Tesla have expanded globally selling multiple models and are an 80bn company.
I'm not sure what the two original guys think they achieved in the original 9 months, but on balance I would say Musk was the person who built Tesla as we know it today.
Musk doesn't like being labeled investor because he's very hands on with design/engineering etc.
But, I can call myself anything, and act in any manner, but that does not make it true. Elon did not come up with the car/computer/technology concept. He loved it and invested huge amounts of money. Elon elevated the company by targeting beneficial tax situations. If it was not for the cut in Company car tax in the UK 0 Teslas would have been sold. This was even more relevant in the US. It is where Fisker failed and Tesla succeeded. If you read my previous posts I have said I would respect Elon if it was not for the recent constant lies.
h0b0 said:
He evolved it to take advantage of the beneficial tax laws, without which Tesla would not exist today.
As would any skilled entrepreneur.Thing is, any of the big car companies could have done what he did, and far quicker and easier by leveraging their existing car manufacturing expertise, logistics infrastructure etc, But they didn't. They either couldn't see a way to do it profitably, or were quite happy to plod along making good money out of the internal combustion engine.
Musk, for all his ill conceived tweets, inarticulate outbursts and outwardly chaotic and unconventional methods, has built the most valuable car company in the world, right under the noses of some of the biggest companies in the world, and forced them into playing catch up. And he did all this from an unrealised idea. Despite all the haters willing him to fail, despite the armchair entrepreneurs pulling his business tactics and ethics to bits, despite the world and his dog predicting the demise of his company next year, every year since it was established, he pulled it off. Nowadays it seems every schmuck on LinkedIn believes they are "disrupting" whatever industry they work in, but Musk is one of the few people who can genuinely claim to have done just that. Established players that considered themselves unassailable went from sneering, to sitting up and taking notice, to rethinking what they were doing. BMW would not be making an i4 if the Model 3 didn't exist. The Taycan or eTron wouldn't exist if it weren't for the Model S. etc etc.
You can quite rightly pick Tesla's cars apart for their shonky quality and iffy after sales support, but there's no doubt that they have made the BEV cool. Before the came along, the average Joe would probably point to a G-Wiz if you asked them what they thought of electric cars. Now they think of big, comfy, tech laden saloons that seat 5 people in comfort, and whoop supercars off the lights. And every other manufacturer wants in on the act.
You have to hand it to the guy. What he has achieved is remarkable.
C70R said:
I had no idea how angry Elon Musk made people.
EM: "Here's an EV which can do 400 miles and 0-60mph in 2secs"
The internet: "Yet another broken promise. What a c*ck."
Except what actually happened wasEM: "Here's an EV which can do 400 miles and 0-60mph in 2secs"
The internet: "Yet another broken promise. What a c*ck."
EM: "Tesla is no longer going to make this car that can do 520 miles and 0-60 in less than 2 seconds as the one that does 390 miles with the same 0-60 is just so good"
The internet: "Yet another broken promise. What a c*ck."
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