Do you prefer usable bhp or more bhp than you need?
Discussion
cerb4.5lee said:
You need a bit more than 10 feet in third though...because 8400rpm in third is 110mph! 
I remember wishing that I had an Autobahn around the corner from me when I had mine. 
Don't make me keep talking about the E92 M3 please...because I've said enough about it already to last a lifetime!
Funny thing is my TD mate has just replaced his E92 M3 with a M2C. He will bore you to death talking about it in August. I remember wishing that I had an Autobahn around the corner from me when I had mine. Don't make me keep talking about the E92 M3 please...because I've said enough about it already to last a lifetime!
In response to your OP though Lee, for me what's important is the grip to power ratio rather than the raw power numbers.
cerb4.5lee said:
So it comes back to the argument of either having usable performance or more performance than you need? So which do you prefer and why?
I think you can find enjoyment from both in the right car. My Fabia 1.2 is enjoyable to hustle along a twisty road in a soft riding, leany, red lining way. Lower limits and thought needed on where to accelerate, brake and carry speed. Observation of the road ahead really pays dividends. An unremarkable car also has its advantages...
However, more power can be differently fun. When I first got my 370z I did wonder whether it was too quick in terms of driving on country lanes. You could find yourself easily exceeding the speed limit in a couple of seconds and traveling at lunatic speeds soon after that. What I have come to realize is that there is enjoyment to be had elsewhere - the 'occasion' when accelerating on part throttle and still making significant progress, the burble of the V6/exhaust and the induction note, the feedback from the suspension and steering. Sitting low down in a sports car. There is more to performance than outright speed, but knowing that should you need or want to you can put your foot down and go is nice as well.
On balance I prefer the 370z but the Skoda has its place too.
It's an interesting thread for sure.
Back in 2014 I bought a BMW 3.0Si Z4 Coupe and loved it. N/A straight 6, RWD and manual gearbox ticked all the boxes - and 265PS was fun on the odd occasion I got to use them all!
But 18 months ago I saw a Z4M Coupe advertised for a price I just couldn't ignore, so I bought it.
More of the same in some ways, but it just feels so much more special thanks to the S54 engine, Hydraulic PAS and non-runflat tyres. And 343 PS, an 8K red-line and H & R coil-overs are a welcome bonus. Even if the running costs are way higher!
Although I seem to remember the OP wasn't a fan of his Z4M.
Obviously it gets to illegal speeds pretty quickly and once or twice I have wondered if I should have stuck to the 3.0Si, but then today I was on a rural single-carriageway A Road behind a bus. I followed it round a mini-rounabout onto a short stretch of N/S/L heading towards a corner with a solid white-line on my carriageway a few hundred yards ahead. It was doing about 20mph so I gunned it in 2nd and was past before the solid line, but couldn't have done that in my 3.0Si.
That reminded me why some extra bhp can still be fun without exceeding the speed limit.
Although maybe 800 is overkill!
Back in 2014 I bought a BMW 3.0Si Z4 Coupe and loved it. N/A straight 6, RWD and manual gearbox ticked all the boxes - and 265PS was fun on the odd occasion I got to use them all!
But 18 months ago I saw a Z4M Coupe advertised for a price I just couldn't ignore, so I bought it.
More of the same in some ways, but it just feels so much more special thanks to the S54 engine, Hydraulic PAS and non-runflat tyres. And 343 PS, an 8K red-line and H & R coil-overs are a welcome bonus. Even if the running costs are way higher!
Although I seem to remember the OP wasn't a fan of his Z4M.
Obviously it gets to illegal speeds pretty quickly and once or twice I have wondered if I should have stuck to the 3.0Si, but then today I was on a rural single-carriageway A Road behind a bus. I followed it round a mini-rounabout onto a short stretch of N/S/L heading towards a corner with a solid white-line on my carriageway a few hundred yards ahead. It was doing about 20mph so I gunned it in 2nd and was past before the solid line, but couldn't have done that in my 3.0Si.
That reminded me why some extra bhp can still be fun without exceeding the speed limit.
Although maybe 800 is overkill!
Edited by Mr Tidy on Thursday 10th June 00:09
Every day a journey said:
ZX10R NIN said:
TyrannosauRoss Lex said:
Spleen said:
Muddle238 said:
If you’re only ever using 4 or 5/10ths to keep things sensible, what’s the point in all that additional power, except for bragging rights?
Because every now and then it's good fun and life's for living, right?
Likewise, still wish I had more!
It's like my bikes I can't fully exploit them (but get closer than I do in the cars) on the road but when you get close it's a sweet sweet spot
t in a BMW behind that will either a) Think they're faster or b) kill you trying to prove it.It is a difficult one. I wouldn’t want either of my quicker cars to have less power but given anything other than the tightest roads, to be properly using them you are well into 3 figures.
I’ve said before with my Impreza part of me regrets taking it to 500bhp as on anything but a rally stage of a road it is so fast now that sensibility becomes the limiting factor. When it was standard even on the straighter bits of road where I play, pushing it hard you would get to 110-120 max. It can now hit 140+ in the same places so I find myself now firing up to a not completely silly speed then backing off and coasting to the next corner. Really buggers the flow of driving.
And as you say op a drive out just becomes blasting from one dawdler to the next.
On the flip side I can often find myself wanting more power in my slower car.
Twisty roads and short gearing are the best things to aim for.
I’ve said before with my Impreza part of me regrets taking it to 500bhp as on anything but a rally stage of a road it is so fast now that sensibility becomes the limiting factor. When it was standard even on the straighter bits of road where I play, pushing it hard you would get to 110-120 max. It can now hit 140+ in the same places so I find myself now firing up to a not completely silly speed then backing off and coasting to the next corner. Really buggers the flow of driving.
And as you say op a drive out just becomes blasting from one dawdler to the next.
On the flip side I can often find myself wanting more power in my slower car.
Twisty roads and short gearing are the best things to aim for.
In today’s driving conditions, with the amount of traffic on the roads, I would say a sub 1000kg car with 150 to 200 bhp is more than enough to have some fun, so yes you can use all the performance available. Of course, grip to match plays a part, less grip=more fun, maybe at times.
Been lucky enough to have driven some V fast cars with over 400 bhp/T and whilst they are VERY exhilarating, I have found them immensely frustrating on public roads.
I think the sweet spot is always wanting just a bit more go, but having the sense not to do so.
I would imagine the current Yaris GR4 has just about the right amount of power to weight, although I suspect its chassis is so capable you need to go silly speeds to feel your pressing on, so it’s not just power, but grip too.
Not a bad “problem” to have though is it
Been lucky enough to have driven some V fast cars with over 400 bhp/T and whilst they are VERY exhilarating, I have found them immensely frustrating on public roads.
I think the sweet spot is always wanting just a bit more go, but having the sense not to do so.
I would imagine the current Yaris GR4 has just about the right amount of power to weight, although I suspect its chassis is so capable you need to go silly speeds to feel your pressing on, so it’s not just power, but grip too.
Not a bad “problem” to have though is it
I went from an M135i to a Fiesta ST, on the proviso it would get some tuning work, currently at an alleged 240 bhp and its reasonably quick, in fact on the local country roads it feels plenty, however on the dual carriageway, which have a knack of making cars feel slower I find, it indeed feels slower.
I think there should be a slight uneasy feeling that comes with a quick car, its going in for a hybrid turbo and some other bits that should give just over 300 bhp, I think that will be enough usable bhp, in the BMW it only really felt usable on straighter roads, completely out of its depth on those country roads.
A 300 ish bhp Fiesta should be quick in anyones book, but against the modern hatches I bet the standing acceleration figures aren't that startling due to being fwd and manual but even at 240 it feels quick, and in part, thats the noise and vibration, feels like a rally car in comparison to the BMW which was more refined and isolated. Performance figures only tell part of the story, choosing a car on them is a bit like choosing your other half (of whichever gender) based on measurements having never met them.
I think there should be a slight uneasy feeling that comes with a quick car, its going in for a hybrid turbo and some other bits that should give just over 300 bhp, I think that will be enough usable bhp, in the BMW it only really felt usable on straighter roads, completely out of its depth on those country roads.
A 300 ish bhp Fiesta should be quick in anyones book, but against the modern hatches I bet the standing acceleration figures aren't that startling due to being fwd and manual but even at 240 it feels quick, and in part, thats the noise and vibration, feels like a rally car in comparison to the BMW which was more refined and isolated. Performance figures only tell part of the story, choosing a car on them is a bit like choosing your other half (of whichever gender) based on measurements having never met them.
i have know dozens of people over my driving career, who have honestly admitted to ruining what was once a totally enjoyable car, by adding additional power and then subsequent remedial upgrades to suspension and drivetrain to use that power. They pretty much end up with a track car.
A very capable chassis with a slightly underpowered engine, will always be more enjoyable to drive as you can literally wring its neck like a go kart.
My most powerful current car is AWD and 400bhp, but my most enjoyable is a lightly tweaked 250bhp hatchback that is known for its excellent handling as standard. I bought the second one for the daily commute to the train station.
Mark A S said:
In today’s driving conditions, with the amount of traffic on the roads, I would say a sub 1000kg car with 150 to 200 bhp is more than enough to have some fun, so yes you can use all the performance available.
Yes 250 hp/ton seems like a good sweet spot although I need a track to use that as I personally couldn't use all the performance on the road for more than a few seconds, that would result in pretty swift imprisonment if used for much longer!Interesting thread.
I feel that part of the excitement also comes from engine note / sound? I drive an M2 competition with a stock exhaust and have been on road trips with another mate with a C63 with sports exhaust. Driving slowly in the C63 is much more fun because it sounds outrageous even at low speeds whereas the M2C at low speeds does its best vacuum cleaner impression Maybe you need a big burbling V8?! Might give you more satisfaction cruising around than having to hoon it everywhere, but also the big power when you do get a bit of clear motorway / racetrack on a sunny Sunday morning...
I feel that part of the excitement also comes from engine note / sound? I drive an M2 competition with a stock exhaust and have been on road trips with another mate with a C63 with sports exhaust. Driving slowly in the C63 is much more fun because it sounds outrageous even at low speeds whereas the M2C at low speeds does its best vacuum cleaner impression
Maybe you need a big burbling V8?! Might give you more satisfaction cruising around than having to hoon it everywhere, but also the big power when you do get a bit of clear motorway / racetrack on a sunny Sunday morning...I can't add much, but the dilemma is one i share & understand.
For me the issue is one of where's the happy medium?
I've had a vast array of very quick & reasonably quick cars, sometimes running 2 to cover the Daily Driver/Weekend & Track car needs, but i often find my sweet spot is something that does both. That said it's far from perfect, but is fun.
Current new transport is an F90 LCI M5 Comp & that for sure ticks pretty much every box I could ever need ticking, however I do find that the way the car piles the speed on at Motorway pace is unbelievable & my concern is within the blink of an eye I'm heading into jail time territory. I'm certainly not on purpose trying to lose my license, but when stuck behind someone at 65/70mph, just a couple of seconds excitement with the loud pedal & the whole world looks very different.
Is this fun? of course it is, but is it sensible? not really.
For me the issue is one of where's the happy medium?
I've had a vast array of very quick & reasonably quick cars, sometimes running 2 to cover the Daily Driver/Weekend & Track car needs, but i often find my sweet spot is something that does both. That said it's far from perfect, but is fun.
Current new transport is an F90 LCI M5 Comp & that for sure ticks pretty much every box I could ever need ticking, however I do find that the way the car piles the speed on at Motorway pace is unbelievable & my concern is within the blink of an eye I'm heading into jail time territory. I'm certainly not on purpose trying to lose my license, but when stuck behind someone at 65/70mph, just a couple of seconds excitement with the loud pedal & the whole world looks very different.
Is this fun? of course it is, but is it sensible? not really.
Is the M4 a Dual clutch and the mini a manual? I think as well as engine characteristics this is a factor.
I think with a manual, even with a very fast car it’s kind of fun to take it through just one gear, feel the torque curve etc. With a dual clutch or auto, the way they just hammer through the gears builds ridiculous speed. I have had an M4 for 2 years now, have had some brilliant drives, but lots of drives that are just missing something. It somehow feels less fun than other cars I’ve had when doing short shifting / swift but not really fast driving.
I had an S1000RR with a brilliant quickshifter, that was similar, just drew me in to hitting much higher speeds than I do on a conventional bike.
I think with a manual, even with a very fast car it’s kind of fun to take it through just one gear, feel the torque curve etc. With a dual clutch or auto, the way they just hammer through the gears builds ridiculous speed. I have had an M4 for 2 years now, have had some brilliant drives, but lots of drives that are just missing something. It somehow feels less fun than other cars I’ve had when doing short shifting / swift but not really fast driving.
I had an S1000RR with a brilliant quickshifter, that was similar, just drew me in to hitting much higher speeds than I do on a conventional bike.
UmpaLoompa said:
whereas the M2C at low speeds does its best vacuum cleaner impression
I can relate to that too!
Maybe you need a big burbling V8?! Might give you more satisfaction cruising around than having to hoon it everywhere, but also the big power when you do get a bit of clear motorway / racetrack on a sunny Sunday morning...
You definitely hit the spot for me with this. I think the key is to get something that engages you at slow speeds, and that can be either the noise or the feel of the controls, or the way that the car makes you feel. My Cerbera was really good at that stuff I thought, and I enjoyed that at either 30 or 130. I can relate to that too! Maybe you need a big burbling V8?! Might give you more satisfaction cruising around than having to hoon it everywhere, but also the big power when you do get a bit of clear motorway / racetrack on a sunny Sunday morning...
Quite a few on the thread have mentioned a similar thing with the Merc C63s, and I think that having some drama at lower speeds can really make a difference to the driving experience. A Caterham or a Lotus Elise are good at that too, lower power but very engaging.
Am I the only one who's happy with a 200 bhp car (an old mini in my case). It really isn't slow at all. I've seen lots of people who talk about having stuff like 350 bhp m135is and the like saying they love it as they can rev the balls off it and not be doing silly speeds 
I don't know what roads some of you drive on but revving the balls off cars with that power will see you either in a field or in prison in very short order round here. I'm also confused about the thought of a previous car of mine, a Z4 coupe 3.0 struggling to overtake a bus. I'm starting to wonder if I live in a parallel universe *shrugs* or is it just Willy waving?
I don't know what roads some of you drive on but revving the balls off cars with that power will see you either in a field or in prison in very short order round here. I'm also confused about the thought of a previous car of mine, a Z4 coupe 3.0 struggling to overtake a bus. I'm starting to wonder if I live in a parallel universe *shrugs* or is it just Willy waving?Hungrymc said:
Is the M4 a Dual clutch and the mini a manual? I think as well as engine characteristics this is a factor.
I think with a manual, even with a very fast car it’s kind of fun to take it through just one gear, feel the torque curve etc. With a dual clutch or auto, the way they just hammer through the gears builds ridiculous speed. I have had an M4 for 2 years now, have had some brilliant drives, but lots of drives that are just missing something. It somehow feels less fun than other cars I’ve had when doing short shifting / swift but not really fast driving.
I had an S1000RR with a brilliant quickshifter, that was similar, just drew me in to hitting much higher speeds than I do on a conventional bike.
I was thinking this myself. With a modern 7/8 speed auto/dual clutch you have an additional 1, 2 or even 3 gears over a similar manual so generally shorter ratios. I think with a manual, even with a very fast car it’s kind of fun to take it through just one gear, feel the torque curve etc. With a dual clutch or auto, the way they just hammer through the gears builds ridiculous speed. I have had an M4 for 2 years now, have had some brilliant drives, but lots of drives that are just missing something. It somehow feels less fun than other cars I’ve had when doing short shifting / swift but not really fast driving.
I had an S1000RR with a brilliant quickshifter, that was similar, just drew me in to hitting much higher speeds than I do on a conventional bike.
Plus if you go to overtake and put your foot down, whereas in a powerful manual at 40/50 you might drop to 3rd or possibly 4th for an overtake, in the auto/dct chances are you will end up in 2nd and be heading for the horizon that much faster than you might in the manual?
Hungrymc said:
Is the M4 a Dual clutch and the mini a manual? I think as well as engine characteristics this is a factor.
I think with a manual, even with a very fast car it’s kind of fun to take it through just one gear, feel the torque curve etc. With a dual clutch or auto, the way they just hammer through the gears builds ridiculous speed. I have had an M4 for 2 years now, have had some brilliant drives, but lots of drives that are just missing something. It somehow feels less fun than other cars I’ve had when doing short shifting / swift but not really fast driving.
You raise a very good point and the M4 is a DCT and the Mini was manual. Strangely though and my preference is usually a manual, I do think that the DCT seems to suit the M4 well and certainly up to now I don't hanker after a manual in it(I'm fortunate to have a manual in the 370Z though). I think with a manual, even with a very fast car it’s kind of fun to take it through just one gear, feel the torque curve etc. With a dual clutch or auto, the way they just hammer through the gears builds ridiculous speed. I have had an M4 for 2 years now, have had some brilliant drives, but lots of drives that are just missing something. It somehow feels less fun than other cars I’ve had when doing short shifting / swift but not really fast driving.
You are bang on I reckon, and I think that when you are going steady though you do lose a bit of interaction from the car with the DCT, however it is a great gearbox for when you're gunning it I think though.
Om said:
I was thinking this myself. With a modern 7/8 speed auto/dual clutch you have an additional 1, 2 or even 3 gears over a similar manual so generally shorter ratios.
Certainly for me when I think back to the manual M3 I had...I definitely think that there is a benefit to the shorter ratios that you get with an Auto or a DCT. The ratios were nice in the manual Mini I had though, and that seemed a nice match to a nice twisty country road I thought.
TameRacingDriver said:
Am I the only one who's happy with a 200 bhp car (an old mini in my case). It really isn't slow at all. I've seen lots of people who talk about having stuff like 350 bhp m135is and the like saying they love it as they can rev the balls off it and not be doing silly speeds I don't know what roads some of you drive on but revving the balls off cars with that power will see you either in a field or in prison in very short order round here. I'm also confused about the thought of a previous car of mine, a Z4 coupe 3.0 struggling to overtake a bus. I'm starting to wonder if I live in a parallel universe *shrugs* or is it just Willy waving?
I think in the more powerful cars that I've had you do have to turn a bit of a blind eye to the speed limits(out on open roads) to enjoy them. However I always had loads of fun in the Mini, and I genuinely didn't hanker after much more power(mostly). It was only on the long straights that I fancied a bit more power. I don't know what roads some of you drive on but revving the balls off cars with that power will see you either in a field or in prison in very short order round here. I'm also confused about the thought of a previous car of mine, a Z4 coupe 3.0 struggling to overtake a bus. I'm starting to wonder if I live in a parallel universe *shrugs* or is it just Willy waving?The Mini certainly got under my skin it seems for sure.
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