Do you prefer usable bhp or more bhp than you need?

[MC Bodge]

FNG said:

For me, light weight and agility combined with low power, a 16v engine and short gearing.

Then you can potter around not being noticed, or you can go and thrash the thing hard, and get to run through more than two gears before you're going insanely fast or arriving behind the next traffic jam, and not having your fun at antisocial speeds.

I tend to agree with this for a car to be used on the roads, rather than fast tracks.

There is satisfaction to be gained from working at something and attempting to master it.

[Zarco]

8IKERDAVE said:

I was thinking a similar thing on my way in to work this morning. I have an Audi S5 and decided to enjoy the power a bit this morning. Although fairly swift and I love the car, I wouldn't class it as 'fun'. Pinning the hell out of a little Clio 172 or similar albeit at lower speeds gives much more driver satisfaction. Probably why 90% of the time I just waft around in comfort mode and don't feel the need to spank it at every given opportunity.

That could be as much about chassis balance, feel, involvement and sheer fun factor, as amount of bhp though.

[otolith]

MC Bodge said:

FNG said:

For me, light weight and agility combined with low power, a 16v engine and short gearing.

Then you can potter around not being noticed, or you can go and thrash the thing hard, and get to run through more than two gears before you're going insanely fast or arriving behind the next traffic jam, and not having your fun at antisocial speeds.

I tend to agree with this for a car to be used on the roads, rather than fast tracks.

There is satisfaction to be gained from working at something and attempting to master it.

Both of your cars must have short gearing then? If your car will do 60 in second and ninety in third it doesn’t make any difference how much power they have.

[BroadsRS6]

There is an argument to all this that goes something like;
"This is PH, where the slogan is "Speed Matters". So therefore, TOO much BHP is never enough!"
As those on the other side of the pond have long since said in fact.
More power for my Audi would be fairly daft in most peoples' books i am guessing, but another 240 bhp to make it a round 1,000 bhp sounds quite good to me. Would i ever use it? Yes, on occasions i am sure i would. For a start it's the only lardy estate i have ever done track days in. It's 2 tonnes so will never be setting lap records but i enjoy manhandling that monster through bends and devouring straights!
On the road it has peed-off a lot of supercar owners who underestimated badly the no-badge (rear) aspect!
Great fun.

[sean ie3]

For me fast car is something that I can drive within the limits of its chassis so a better chassis equals more speed, as you know. I would count myself lucky as I don't need a family car so anything between a A110 and a M2C would hit the mark, I think I could drive the Alpine within its limits and extract the most from it on the road compared with the M2C, but I can definitely see how the extra 130-150 bhp would be fun.

[BroadsRS6]

A mate has a 190 bhp Fiat 695 Abarth Biposto, modified to 250 bhp.
I'm thinking that it will provide a lot of fun out of a very small car with a tiny engine (1398cc).
In reality i can imagine that sticking with most cars across a moorland road or through a twisty mountain pass. Not too shabby on a track day either as it's only 990 kgs.

[SidewaysSi]

nickfrog said:

av185 said:

Wonder if those claiming autos require as many skills to drive near or on the limit as manuals have actually heard of heel and toeing.

I am not sure anyone is claiming that really, just that the amount of skill involved in driving a manual on the limit is within easy reach of an otherwise skilled driver as banging consistent hot laps requires far far more skill in the first place than the mere ability to change gear manually, including H&Ting every downshift with a lot of chassis tension.

Do you H&T all your downshifts on track on the limit ? I certainly try to and will fluff the occasional one but that pales into absolute insignificance compared to my shortcomings in more critical areas of track driving, particularly in the traction zones or even on turn in.

Edited by nickfrog on Friday 11th June 15:30

I have seen and witnessed plenty of trackday drivers who struggle with changing gear on track.

Given we are probably in the top 0.05% of drivers across all driving disciplines, it's not an issue. But it seems a challenge for the rest of them.

[SidewaysSi]

sean ie3 said:

For me fast car is something that I can drive within the limits of its chassis so a better chassis equals more speed, as you know. I would count myself lucky as I don't need a family car so anything between a A110 and a M2C would hit the mark, I think I could drive the Alpine within its limits and extract the most from it on the road compared with the M2C, but I can definitely see how the extra 130-150 bhp would be fun.

I want a car I can push the limits of - certainly don't want to be within the limits as that is a bit dull for me personally.

Plenty of factors determine fun behind the wheel. Power is merely one element and a fast car is not automatically a great driving car as we all know.

[brisel]

cerb4.5lee said:

I'm currently finding my F82 M4(430bhp) a touch frustrating on the road...and I find myself overtaking stuff and then quickly running out of road or either catching the next car up quickly and I'm back on the brakes. Whereas when I had my Mini Cooper S(192bhp) I never had that problem, and I could pretty much use all of the performance for most of the time.

So it comes back to the argument of either having usable performance or more performance than you need? So which do you prefer and why?

Good thread topic

I have an itch for something more communicative after 3 German barges (2 RS4s and a 6.2 C63), and a M3/4 is on my list to try before just getting a manual 997. The current autobahn eater has 487 hp and occasionally all of these are called upon, though only in a straight line and for the last few times, a bit of testing encouraged by M drivers... For most roads, it’s never called upon at all and I’ve had more fun in Boxsters, Caymans and hot hatches. I will miss the V8, the noise and it’s torque but unless ripping up the main straight on a track or endangering my licence on a motorway, it’s just not really exploitable.

If you happened to be looking for good roads north of you, drop me a line please.

[Northernboy]

cerb4.5lee said:

You need a bit more than 10 feet in third though...because 8400rpm in third is 110mph! I remember wishing that I had an Autobahn around the corner from me when I had mine.

Don't make me keep talking about the E92 M3 please...because I've said enough about it already to last a lifetime!

It sounds as though you are changing gear too early then.

To answer the original question, I’ve ended up with my three main cars all being above 640bhp, and there are still times when a bit more would be nice. Even my 650s could do with a bit more “pep”, so will be getting some work done on it this year.

[SidewaysSi]

Northernboy said:

cerb4.5lee said:

You need a bit more than 10 feet in third though...because 8400rpm in third is 110mph! I remember wishing that I had an Autobahn around the corner from me when I had mine.

Don't make me keep talking about the E92 M3 please...because I've said enough about it already to last a lifetime!

It sounds as though you are changing gear too early then.

To answer the original question, I’ve ended up with my three main cars all being above 640bhp, and there are still times when a bit more would be nice. Even my 650s could do with a bit more “pep”, so will be getting some work done on it this year.

Can't you push your car hard enough with 640bhp?

[Northernboy]

SidewaysSi said:

Can't you push your car hard enough with 640bhp?

Like I said, sometimes a bit more would be nice. I overtook a guy on a motorbike today on a b-road who’d been bimbling along but then decided to give it full-on beans as I passed. I still made it by OK before the next bend, but it’d have been nice to have a bit more in reserve.

One issue is that my cars aren’t exactly lightweights. The Range Rover’s 2,300kg, the SL’s 1,770, and the spirts car’s 1,350.

[jamei303]

I'd much rather have an engine I can work properly.

Having 640bhp on UK public roads would be like using a chain saw to prune a rose bush.

[SidewaysSi]

Northernboy said:

SidewaysSi said:

Can't you push your car hard enough with 640bhp?

Like I said, sometimes a bit more would be nice. I overtook a guy on a motorbike today on a b-road who’d been bimbling along but then decided to give it full-on beans as I passed. I still made it by OK before the next bend, but it’d have been nice to have a bit more in reserve.

One issue is that my cars aren’t exactly lightweights. The Range Rover’s 2,300kg, the SL’s 1,770, and the spirts car’s 1,350.

Yep those cars are lard arses. May need to consider whether your driving skills are up to scratch too.

[av185]

jamei303 said:

I'd much rather have an engine I can work properly.

Having 640bhp on UK public roads would be like using a chain saw to prune a rose bush.

Depends which UK public roads you are referring to.

Plenty of fantastic driving roads throughout Yorkshire Cumbria and North Lancashire where rapid cars can be exercised both sensibly and safely.

And thats before you even mention places such as Wales and Scotland.

[nickfrog]

av185 said:

And thats before you even mention places such as Wales and Scotland.

True and not to mention easily reachable roads overseas (in normal times anyway)

[J4CKO]

I have my Fiesta ST booked in to either go to 300 with a TT 270 Turbo or 340 with a 280.

Cant decide, 300 should really be enough in a Fiesta, and then some, but should I just go for the bigger one ? Its another £750 or so.

Will I always be wondering if I go for the lower output or do I take a step back and think a 300 bhp 1150 kilo FWD shopping hatch should really be plenty ?

[Northernboy]

J4CKO said:

I have my Fiesta ST booked in to either go to 300 with a TT 270 Turbo or 340 with a 280.

Cant decide, 300 should really be enough in a Fiesta, and then some, but should I just go for the bigger one ? Its another £750 or so.

Will I always be wondering if I go for the lower output or do I take a step back and think a 300 bhp 1150 kilo FWD shopping hatch should really be plenty ?

I'd think that power delivery is going to be at least as important as power with that choice. Does the bigger turbo take longer to get up to speed; does it mean that you've actually got less torque and response from lower revs? If so I'd probably pick the more responsive one myself.

[J4CKO]

Northernboy said:

J4CKO said:

I have my Fiesta ST booked in to either go to 300 with a TT 270 Turbo or 340 with a 280.

Cant decide, 300 should really be enough in a Fiesta, and then some, but should I just go for the bigger one ? Its another £750 or so.

Will I always be wondering if I go for the lower output or do I take a step back and think a 300 bhp 1150 kilo FWD shopping hatch should really be plenty ?

I'd think that power delivery is going to be at least as important as power with that choice. Does the bigger turbo take longer to get up to speed; does it mean that you've actually got less torque and response from lower revs? If so I'd probably pick the more responsive one myself.

Someone commented on the FB group,

"with correct mapping there’s very little lag between the two
Using the S280 turbo allows better power results and lower boost levels"

[Northernboy]

J4CKO said:

Someone commented on the FB group,

"with correct mapping there’s very little lag between the two
Using the S280 turbo allows better power results and lower boost levels"

Well then in that case I'd always pick the bigger one.

I like a lot of torque to come in quite early, which is possibly a feature of me becoming middle-aged and being less willing to use higher revs as much as I once did, so if that's possible with the larger turbo I'd want that mapped in.