Will electric hot hatches be a hit ?
Discussion
Northernboy said:
The Yaris is mainly for fun, but it does have the benefit of being able to be used for longer trips if needed.
My wife drives a little city car, and we’ll replace that with an electric car when it’s time for a new one. The range won’t be a problem then as we’ve also got a big family car here.
Isn't the Yaris boot a bit small for long trips?My wife drives a little city car, and we’ll replace that with an electric car when it’s time for a new one. The range won’t be a problem then as we’ve also got a big family car here.
wisbech said:
Isn't the Yaris boot a bit small for long trips?
Long trips are occasional though and any car is capable of long trips. Better to have an every day car more suited to your 99% usage type rather than optimised for the 1%. It would be like living in the box room so as to keep the master suite free for guests otherwise. 
Besides, we're a small island and it's actually pretty hard to do any kind of trip that a hatchback isn't 100% absolutely fine for if it's absolutely fine for the urban work. After all, while urban trips may only be a few miles the chances are that you're sitting in that box for as long as a long trip and changing gear far more often.
I'm not entirely sure that the thinking that a long journey requires a big car isn't a bit of a 70s throwback?
DonkeyApple said:
so called said:
Northernboy said:
DonkeyApple said:
That said, the i3 is the same sort of weight as a typical hot hatch and good fun to hoon. The range is also OK, even for blasts between mundanity. I've not driven the EV Mini but the performance stats and weight aren't all that off. I think these two cars that are at the early stage of EVs tend to show that everything is there bar the manual labour and oikery which personally, I consider key ingredients.
It's got a "real world" range of about 110 miles though, hasn't it? That's not really "OK" as someone's only car unless they really never use it for much other than commutig and local trips.After 15 months of WFH and using my i3S as a shopping cart, I got permission for a couple of site visits last week.
50 mile drive Crewe to Derby and it showed 25% battery usage.
I was a little surprised but then the return 50 miles also used 25%.
100 miles for £1.00 and still half the battery isn't so bad.
Which i3 model is your 110 miles range based on?
That's not the early 20kWh i3 or i3Rex.
Maybe the 30kWh i3.
Not the 30kWh i3Rex
Not the 40kWh i3 or i3S.
so called said:
DonkeyApple said:
so called said:
Northernboy said:
DonkeyApple said:
That said, the i3 is the same sort of weight as a typical hot hatch and good fun to hoon. The range is also OK, even for blasts between mundanity. I've not driven the EV Mini but the performance stats and weight aren't all that off. I think these two cars that are at the early stage of EVs tend to show that everything is there bar the manual labour and oikery which personally, I consider key ingredients.
It's got a "real world" range of about 110 miles though, hasn't it? That's not really "OK" as someone's only car unless they really never use it for much other than commutig and local trips.After 15 months of WFH and using my i3S as a shopping cart, I got permission for a couple of site visits last week.
50 mile drive Crewe to Derby and it showed 25% battery usage.
I was a little surprised but then the return 50 miles also used 25%.
100 miles for £1.00 and still half the battery isn't so bad.
Which i3 model is your 110 miles range based on?
That's not the early 20kWh i3 or i3Rex.
Maybe the 30kWh i3.
Not the 30kWh i3Rex
Not the 40kWh i3 or i3S.
DonkeyApple said:
Long trips are occasional though and any car is capable of long trips. Better to have an every day car more suited to your 99% usage type rather than optimised for the 1%. It would be like living in the box room so as to keep the master suite free for guests otherwise.
Besides, we're a small island and it's actually pretty hard to do any kind of trip that a hatchback isn't 100% absolutely fine for if it's absolutely fine for the urban work. After all, while urban trips may only be a few miles the chances are that you're sitting in that box for as long as a long trip and changing gear far more often.
I'm not entirely sure that the thinking that a long journey requires a big car isn't a bit of a 70s throwback?
More that a long journey tends to equal overnight stays - or longer - and so luggage. I must admit I was surprised here in Oz to find the average car size a size above the normal in UK - as in someone who in UK would drive a supermini tends to have a compact here, and so on. But the difference seems to be that domestic trips/ holidays by definition tend to be long drives - vs the Euro thing of fly and rent, plus the outdoor lifestyle/ culture - people just have more stuff to get in or on a car (surfboards/ bikes etc)Besides, we're a small island and it's actually pretty hard to do any kind of trip that a hatchback isn't 100% absolutely fine for if it's absolutely fine for the urban work. After all, while urban trips may only be a few miles the chances are that you're sitting in that box for as long as a long trip and changing gear far more often.
I'm not entirely sure that the thinking that a long journey requires a big car isn't a bit of a 70s throwback?
wisbech said:
More that a long journey tends to equal overnight stays - or longer - and so luggage. I must admit I was surprised here in Oz to find the average car size a size above the normal in UK - as in someone who in UK would drive a supermini tends to have a compact here, and so on. But the difference seems to be that domestic trips/ holidays by definition tend to be long drives - vs the Euro thing of fly and rent, plus the outdoor lifestyle/ culture - people just have more stuff to get in or on a car (surfboards/ bikes etc)
Yup. Local environments will have a tendency to dictate size but when talking about hot hatches I think the premise is more around a thrashing version of an existing hatchback rather than opting for a hot hatch over a larger car?CG2020UK said:
I'd love a proper electric hot hatch and do think they will be the way forward especially for the majority of people.
You don't even have to improve the handling of the current hot hatches just switching too electric should be enough of a jump forward. No more petrol stations and cheaper motoring.
Trying to claim an I3 is a hot hatch is just a bit too much of a stretch for me and does nothing to help EVs.
Until we get to the next generation of batteries, electric hot hatches will not work. Weight will increase over an ICE hot hatch today to such an extent that all the great handling characteristics, nimbleness, responsiveness etc just won't be there. Or will be there in a golf sized car that weighs 1500/1600kg plus. And they sound sYou don't even have to improve the handling of the current hot hatches just switching too electric should be enough of a jump forward. No more petrol stations and cheaper motoring.
Trying to claim an I3 is a hot hatch is just a bit too much of a stretch for me and does nothing to help EVs.
t. I've driven multiple hybrids/EV's now. Novelty factor of instant torque and low down acceleration wears off very quickly however quick they are. Then you see all of the bored people on the motorways in their Tesla's doing 50-60mph to eek out their range. It's a massive compromise for zero exhaust emissions.
Plus i seriously doubt that if driven as a hot hatch should be (early 60/90/120 minute drive on early Sunday morning blast) that the battery will a) overheat and b) give you insufficient range to have fun.
EV's are a total vanity project in my book. Hybrids technically make the most sense right now but probably don't work in hot hatch size and form factors.
NB not driven a Taycan which i suspect is the only exception to the EV car flaws right now, but hey at £80k upwards they are not hot hatch territory by any measurement.
Until we get the solid state batteries that can recharge in only double the time it takes to stop and fill the tank and have greater energy density to afford a decent range with a leaden foot- plus there are electric charging points everywhere ( and i mean out in the sticks not just in towns and on motorways ) - they (EV's and EV hot hatches) are a bit of a nonsense.
sly fox said:
Until we get to the next generation of batteries, electric hot hatches will not work. Weight will increase over an ICE hot hatch today to such an extent that all the great handling characteristics, nimbleness, responsiveness etc just won't be there. Or will be there in a golf sized car that weighs 1500/1600kg plus.
Crikey. A 1500kg hot Golf, who would ever buy such a thing?DonkeyApple said:
Morning. Yup, but I assumed he meant the range of it was treated like a hot hatch, blasted along for fun with the hurdle being that when you came the tank it's a ballache to refill and get back on your way. As opposed to the more than usable range when used in the same vein as a hatchback.
IME, with both my i3 and my i3s, the range actually isn't very dependant on how hard you drive it, but on how fast, on average you drive it. Thanks to regen, hard accel and decel, as long as you stay away from the friction brakes makes little difference because you get a lot of the energy you just put into the cars KE back. As i live in the south mids, my opportunities to drive for really anything more than a few miles at absolutely max speed are limited by, well, all the other people on the road, the seemingly infinite number of 30 and 40 limits, and the general weight of traffic.Driven as i normally drive it (like a T**T mostly...) my i3s i recon has a min range of about 120 miles in winter, and probably 150 in summer. And trust me, i'm not hanging around, very, very few cars remain behind it (this is broadly because these days most drivers have absolutely no idea how to carry speed on anything that isn't a dead straight motorway) So whilst it might only do 100mph (limited) it'll do that everywhere :-)
For my driving, it's frankly a lot of fun. Far, far more fun than some huge sports car with 285 section tyres and 500 bhp which you simple can't use for fear of either killing some one or being a star entry onto Police, Camera, Action.........
sly fox said:
Until we get to the next generation of batteries, electric hot hatches will not work. Weight will increase over an ICE hot hatch today to such an extent that all the great handling characteristics, nimbleness, responsiveness etc just won't be there. Or will be there in a golf sized car that weighs 1500/1600kg plus. And they sound st.
I've driven multiple hybrids/EV's now. Novelty factor of instant torque and low down acceleration wears off very quickly however quick they are. Then you see all of the bored people on the motorways in their Tesla's doing 50-60mph to eek out their range. It's a massive compromise for zero exhaust emissions.
Plus i seriously doubt that if driven as a hot hatch should be (early 60/90/120 minute drive on early Sunday morning blast) that the battery will a) overheat and b) give you insufficient range to have fun.
EV's are a total vanity project in my book. Hybrids technically make the most sense right now but probably don't work in hot hatch size and form factors.
NB not driven a Taycan which i suspect is the only exception to the EV car flaws right now, but hey at £80k upwards they are not hot hatch territory by any measurement.
Until we get the solid state batteries that can recharge in only double the time it takes to stop and fill the tank and have greater energy density to afford a decent range with a leaden foot- plus there are electric charging points everywhere ( and i mean out in the sticks not just in towns and on motorways ) - they (EV's and EV hot hatches) are a bit of a nonsense.
Completely agree with everything you say. t. I've driven multiple hybrids/EV's now. Novelty factor of instant torque and low down acceleration wears off very quickly however quick they are. Then you see all of the bored people on the motorways in their Tesla's doing 50-60mph to eek out their range. It's a massive compromise for zero exhaust emissions.
Plus i seriously doubt that if driven as a hot hatch should be (early 60/90/120 minute drive on early Sunday morning blast) that the battery will a) overheat and b) give you insufficient range to have fun.
EV's are a total vanity project in my book. Hybrids technically make the most sense right now but probably don't work in hot hatch size and form factors.
NB not driven a Taycan which i suspect is the only exception to the EV car flaws right now, but hey at £80k upwards they are not hot hatch territory by any measurement.
Until we get the solid state batteries that can recharge in only double the time it takes to stop and fill the tank and have greater energy density to afford a decent range with a leaden foot- plus there are electric charging points everywhere ( and i mean out in the sticks not just in towns and on motorways ) - they (EV's and EV hot hatches) are a bit of a nonsense.
A lot of people can’t see past 4wd and 0-60 times unfortunately which means EVs will always have the advantage and the weight will be irrelevant.
Tommo87 said:
Could electric car only track days become a thing?
Potentially, they could be used on the tracks where the locals have severelyrestricted access due to the noise.
I think that track days are the visceral representation of the issues of EVs from weight, to range, to speed of refuelling and the need to specialist systems to hold the energy. Potentially, they could be used on the tracks where the locals have severelyrestricted access due to the noise.
Obviously, track use is highly specific but it serves to highlight clearly the current shortcomings.
For most it's a complete non issue, their hot hatch rarely strays far from home and rarely gets used as god intended for extensive periods.
EV hot hatches will be different, used differently but they won't go away as ultimately there will remain consumers who want their mum's car but with a bodykit etc.
Leon R said:
otolith said:
But not for NIMBYs closing tracks down due to noise.
Never going to appease those people though really. As soon as you make it E.V only the tyre noise will be too loud or it will attract too many people to the area resulting in too much traffic ect.Slightly quieter cars won't stop the desire to turn the land over to housing. But that is moot to the point being made that track days do strongly highlight the issues of EVs that to lesser extents can impact on day to day use etc.
so called said:
Hi DonkeyApple, I was referring to Northernboy's comment of the i3 having a "real world range of about 110 miles".
That's not the early 20kWh i3 or i3Rex.
Maybe the 30kWh i3.
Not the 30kWh i3Rex
Not the 40kWh i3 or i3S.
More to the point, it's hardly a 'hot hatch'. Apart from the range, it's not especially quick beyond 50 mph and the ride is poor. No doubt up there with the better EV's. But....That's not the early 20kWh i3 or i3Rex.
Maybe the 30kWh i3.
Not the 30kWh i3Rex
Not the 40kWh i3 or i3S.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMK_MbSrXZc
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff