Will electric hot hatches be a hit ?
Discussion
Pommy said:
Good job the wife didn't need to come along as well as a push chair...
Not sure what point you are trying to make, the Caterham would tow a boat as well as a Clio, it would probably fly better? It’s not daft pointing out the i3’s limitations. In fact the Caterham is a great example of how a very focused car can be more flexible than people think. Obviously excluding those that melt when getting cold, wet, or who don’t like engines
ddom said:
Pommy said:
Good job the wife didn't need to come along as well as a push chair...
Not sure what point you are trying to make, the Caterham would tow a boat as well as a Clio, it would probably fly better? It’s not daft pointing out the i3’s limitations. In fact the Caterham is a great example of how a very focused car can be more flexible than people think. Obviously excluding those that melt when getting cold, wet, or who don’t like engines
The point I'm making is that the op question is whether electric hot hatches will be a hit. Hot hatches are a hit as they are the fast do everything car. They're not hits because they're track cars, although they can do that too. Whether they can do 'high speed lapping' is misaligned with whether they will be a hit. They'll be a hit for their everything ability.
Bringing up possible compromises of a car and then being annoyed by being critiqued by someone else bringing up compromises of aforementioned compromised car is hypocrisy and irrelevant to the question at hand.
Can't knock a car because it might not be an effective track weapon when it does 10 things well when most track cars are 1.5 trick ponies.
I am sure I could sleep in a Caterham everyday, tow a tiny tiny boat, do my weekly shopping but I could also have sex with a horse - just because you can doesn't mean you should as it may be a pretty unenjoyable experience.
Edited by Pommy on Sunday 27th June 04:41
Pommy said:
A Caterham couldn't tow a boat as well as a 182 as you're limited by weight of the car.
The point I'm making is that the op question is whether electric hot hatches will be a hit. Hot hatches are a hit as they are the fast do everything car. They're not hits because they're track cars, although they can do that too. Whether they can do 'high speed lapping' is misaligned with whether they will be a hit. They'll be a hit for their everything ability.
Bringing up possible compromises of a car and then being annoyed by being critiqued by someone else bringing up compromises of aforementioned compromised car is hypocrisy and irrelevant to the question at hand.
Can't knock a car because it might not be an effective track weapon when it does 10 things well when most track cars are 1.5 trick ponies.
I am sure I could sleep in a Caterham everyday, tow a tiny tiny boat, do my weekly shopping but I could also have sex with a horse - just because you can doesn't mean you should as it may be a pretty unenjoyable experience.
Was with you up the horse The point I'm making is that the op question is whether electric hot hatches will be a hit. Hot hatches are a hit as they are the fast do everything car. They're not hits because they're track cars, although they can do that too. Whether they can do 'high speed lapping' is misaligned with whether they will be a hit. They'll be a hit for their everything ability.
Bringing up possible compromises of a car and then being annoyed by being critiqued by someone else bringing up compromises of aforementioned compromised car is hypocrisy and irrelevant to the question at hand.
Can't knock a car because it might not be an effective track weapon when it does 10 things well when most track cars are 1.5 trick ponies.
I am sure I could sleep in a Caterham everyday, tow a tiny tiny boat, do my weekly shopping but I could also have sex with a horse - just because you can doesn't mean you should as it may be a pretty unenjoyable experience.
Edited by Pommy on Sunday 27th June 04:41
But. A hot hatch can lap a circuit for a good amount of time. An i3 cannot. I think that was the point being made?
cerb4.5lee said:
A good thread...apart from all the gushing over noddys car!(the i3).
I'm not really into electric cars(to say the least) but I do find myself strangely attracted to the electric Mini. I loved my F56 Cooper S(I actually miss it even more since I've had the M4 to be fair as well) so an electric Mini definitely appeals in some ways for sure.
I've also always enjoyed the traffic light grand prix, so I imagine these electric cars to be excellent at that for definite.
My sister drives a Mini.... I'm not really into electric cars(to say the least) but I do find myself strangely attracted to the electric Mini. I loved my F56 Cooper S(I actually miss it even more since I've had the M4 to be fair as well) so an electric Mini definitely appeals in some ways for sure.
I've also always enjoyed the traffic light grand prix, so I imagine these electric cars to be excellent at that for definite.
Edited by cerb4.5lee on Saturday 26th June 09:55
ddom said:
Was with you up the horse
But. A hot hatch can lap a circuit for a good amount of time. An i3 cannot. I think that was the point being made?
Yup but like the windy pop noises it's not a critical sales element. Neither being mooted are likely to stop a manufacturer from glueing bits on the outside of one of their shopping cars and adjusting the ride to appeal to that market. But. A hot hatch can lap a circuit for a good amount of time. An i3 cannot. I think that was the point being made?
Discombobulate said:
My sister drives a Mini....
Don't worry I got plenty of stick for driving a Mini to be fair! My mrs absolutely hated the thing and she just couldn't understand why I wanted one in the first place. Even the lady who looked after my dog when I go on holiday took the piss out of me to my face! It reminded me of all the stick I got with my first car(a yellow 1982 Skoda Estelle).
I genuinely loved the Mini though(and I still miss it a lot).
cerb4.5lee said:
A good thread...apart from all the gushing over noddys car!(the i3).
I'm not really into electric cars(to say the least) but I do find myself strangely attracted to the electric Mini. I loved my F56 Cooper S(I actually miss it even more since I've had the M4 to be fair as well) so an electric Mini definitely appeals in some ways for sure.
I've also always enjoyed the traffic light grand prix, so I imagine these electric cars to be excellent at that for definite.
I had the "pleasure" of one of these recently. The powertrain has zero character, other than Sport mode making the throttle so binary that the car jolts multiple times with each touch of the pedal, as if it has a severely malfunctioning position sensor. It had an even more punishing ride than my wife's old R56 JCW did on runflats, the handling is worse than a regular Mini and the real world range drops like a stone if you venture onto a dual carriageway or motorway. Charging away from home is also expensive (and a complete pain in the backside) if you get caught out.I'm not really into electric cars(to say the least) but I do find myself strangely attracted to the electric Mini. I loved my F56 Cooper S(I actually miss it even more since I've had the M4 to be fair as well) so an electric Mini definitely appeals in some ways for sure.
I've also always enjoyed the traffic light grand prix, so I imagine these electric cars to be excellent at that for definite.
Edited by cerb4.5lee on Saturday 26th June 09:55
It really did feel like a glorified golf buggy (except with torque steer) rather than a proper car.
J4CKO said:
Part of it is piloting something powerful yourself, the drivetrain has a big effect on how we enjoy it, but ask yourself if we hadnt heard IC engines, used a manual gearbox and electric was the norm, would we feel something was missing ?
Answer is no, we would just accept that our personal transport was largely silent, had one gear ratio that covered all eventualities, was fast enough and very efficient.
IC has only ever really been like a placeholder until the electric motor, a far superior device for propelling vehicles had the battery capacity, had some chemist in 18 o plonk arrived at decent battery back then, nobody would have really used ICE's for cars.
We have grown up with it, have an affinity for it and appreciate it but I dont think people being born now will be all that bothered, a bit like how pre war cars values dwindle as the people with any fondness or appreciation get too old and/or die off, same as will happen with the MK1 and 2 Escort owners, so on and so forth.
ICE will get aged out in the same way as individual models with the added incentive of efficiency, once the downsides are mitigated enough all the non petrolhead punters will switch in their droves, they are fickle, not daft. If its got the right badge, can be financed cost effectively etc, then you wont see them for dust.
Kids in the future will look on older cars like we look on veteran and vintage stuff, arcane, hard to operate, noisy, smelly and prone to breaking.
So, yeah, electric hot hatches will be a hit as there wont be anything else and there is always space for a sporty, faster, cooler looking version, its cars that are changing, not people, we are still vain show offs who like going too fast
Absolutely. Battery technology is only going to improve. Real 300 miles range is now achievable so as charging times and weight reduces the convenience will only improve. Plus the significant additional benefit of being able to 'refuel' at home. Answer is no, we would just accept that our personal transport was largely silent, had one gear ratio that covered all eventualities, was fast enough and very efficient.
IC has only ever really been like a placeholder until the electric motor, a far superior device for propelling vehicles had the battery capacity, had some chemist in 18 o plonk arrived at decent battery back then, nobody would have really used ICE's for cars.
We have grown up with it, have an affinity for it and appreciate it but I dont think people being born now will be all that bothered, a bit like how pre war cars values dwindle as the people with any fondness or appreciation get too old and/or die off, same as will happen with the MK1 and 2 Escort owners, so on and so forth.
ICE will get aged out in the same way as individual models with the added incentive of efficiency, once the downsides are mitigated enough all the non petrolhead punters will switch in their droves, they are fickle, not daft. If its got the right badge, can be financed cost effectively etc, then you wont see them for dust.
Kids in the future will look on older cars like we look on veteran and vintage stuff, arcane, hard to operate, noisy, smelly and prone to breaking.
So, yeah, electric hot hatches will be a hit as there wont be anything else and there is always space for a sporty, faster, cooler looking version, its cars that are changing, not people, we are still vain show offs who like going too fast
As for electric cars being boring and uninvolving. That's not the fault of the powertrain. New cars have been trending more and more towards this for over a decade now. It's the fault of industry and market demand, not the sudden viability of electric powertrains! I mean...just look at the popularity of jukes, qashqais, renegades etc. These are the cars the people want. Us petrolheads are the minority and a significant one at that.
Clivey said:
I had the "pleasure" of one of these recently. The powertrain has zero character, other than Sport mode making the throttle so binary that the car jolts multiple times with each touch of the pedal, as if it has a severely malfunctioning position sensor. It had an even more punishing ride than my wife's old R56 JCW did on runflats, the handling is worse than a regular Mini and the real world range drops like a stone if you venture onto a dual carriageway or motorway. Charging away from home is also expensive (and a complete pain in the backside) if you get caught out.
It really did feel like a glorified golf buggy (except with torque steer) rather than a proper car.
That doesn't sound great then for sure. I guess that it is a "on paper" type of car then. As with most electric cars they seem like a good idea until you start living with them it seems.It really did feel like a glorified golf buggy (except with torque steer) rather than a proper car.
I'll be sticking with cars with a ICE for as long as I can anyway, and I was just trying to be a bit more open minded about electric. The future of cars doesn't seem all that bright sadly.
sabre said:
What is interesting is no one seems to discuss how the lost revenue from fuel will be recuperated, if we all end up electric (which for practicality reasons we wont).
E.g. will vehicle excise duty become £1500 for a car per year? or will you need special charging points at a higher taxed tariff? Fuel duty is about 2% of GDP so it WILL be replaced if fossil fuel cars disappear....or should this be its own topic? Hydrogen/hybrids may be the solution?
Road pricing, which also brings with it increased monitoring and camera coverage. Pretty soon after the majority switch to EVs the "Watch my 2 second 0-60" will be made completely redundant as Big Brother takes the wheel. E.g. will vehicle excise duty become £1500 for a car per year? or will you need special charging points at a higher taxed tariff? Fuel duty is about 2% of GDP so it WILL be replaced if fossil fuel cars disappear....or should this be its own topic? Hydrogen/hybrids may be the solution?
What will be "interesting", or rather, scary, is the development of self driving cars on public roads. Requiring the human in the driver's seat to pay 100% attention just in case the computers make a mistake or encounter a situation they're not programmed for is going to lead to the same kind of accidents we've seen from the aviation sector as pilots either trusted the autopilot too much, weren't on the ball or had insufficient training.
Imagine Kayden whizzing down the road, eyes buried in TikTok as they enter the roadworks with the not-quite standardised signage / road markings. That's going to be great fun.
There won't be many accidents with self driving cars as their existence and the fact that they are programmed to give way to pedestrians will have made pavements redundant and all the cars will be completely gridlocked.
Pedestrians are only kept on pavements due to the fear of being hit by a car. Once that fear is gone and in fact those cars are programmed to bow before their new overlords then everyone will be released from the onerous shackles of the pavement.
Pedestrians are only kept on pavements due to the fear of being hit by a car. Once that fear is gone and in fact those cars are programmed to bow before their new overlords then everyone will be released from the onerous shackles of the pavement.
DonkeyApple said:
There won't be many accidents with self driving cars as their existence and the fact that they are programmed to give way to pedestrians will have made pavements redundant and all the cars will be completely gridlocked.
Pedestrians are only kept on pavements due to the fear of being hit by a car. Once that fear is gone and in fact those cars are programmed to bow before their new overlords then everyone will be released from the onerous shackles of the pavement.
Oh yeah, I can definitely see that happening in town and city centres, car parks etc. but when the tech fails...Pedestrians are only kept on pavements due to the fear of being hit by a car. Once that fear is gone and in fact those cars are programmed to bow before their new overlords then everyone will be released from the onerous shackles of the pavement.
https://youtu.be/hthyTh_fopo
Clivey said:
Oh yeah, I can definitely see that happening in town and city centres, car parks etc. but when the tech fails...
https://youtu.be/hthyTh_fopo
I don't know that that can be put down s the tech failing. Someone in dark clothes wheeling a bike with no lights on it walks out in front of a car on a main road; it's not really reasonable to expect a car to notice them.https://youtu.be/hthyTh_fopo
DonkeyApple said:
There won't be many accidents with self driving cars as their existence and the fact that they are programmed to give way to pedestrians will have made pavements redundant and all the cars will be completely gridlocked.
Pedestrians are only kept on pavements due to the fear of being hit by a car. Once that fear is gone and in fact those cars are programmed to bow before their new overlords then everyone will be released from the onerous shackles of the pavement.
That won't need self driving cars, Automatic Emergency Braking becomes mandatory fitment in the EU soon and will be reliable long before autonomy is.Pedestrians are only kept on pavements due to the fear of being hit by a car. Once that fear is gone and in fact those cars are programmed to bow before their new overlords then everyone will be released from the onerous shackles of the pavement.
Northernboy said:
I don't know that that can be put down s the tech failing. Someone in dark clothes wheeling a bike with no lights on it walks out in front of a car on a main road; it's not really reasonable to expect a car to notice them.
The car detected the person & bike several seconds before impact but the auto braking was apparently disabled to avoid "erratic behaviour". The problem is the same as in the aviation industry in that without extremely high standards of training, the people behind the wheel don't understand all of the different operating modes and what's expected of them. - See Asiana Airlines flight 214 as an example.If the tech is too complex for the average driver to understand and use safely, it's a failure. We can't have cars ploughing through obstructions / people just because the drivers "thought the computer was doing that bit"...and unless the car is 100% self driving, it's going to be an absolute liability as people get bored "backseat driving" and start playing with the infotainment / their phone / their passengers.
otolith said:
That won't need self driving cars, Automatic Emergency Braking becomes mandatory fitment in the EU soon and will be reliable long before autonomy is.
Given how many chaps walking in Z2 to 1 already check the driver of the oncoming vehicle and make a judgement call on stepping out and causing the driver to halt for them while receiving 'the stare' then it will get fun long before the mystery of autonomous driving is solved. Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff