RE: Cayman GT4 PDK vs. A110 Legende GT vs. Huracan RWD

[Prestonese]

Dale487 said:

Miserablegit said:

Agree- I'm all for choice however there would have been downsides:
Increased development costs would lead to increased prices or cost-cutting elsewhere as these cars are sold in relatively small numbers and will be off sale sometime in 2024.

Not all manuals are equal - there is an assumption that manual would be a great drive. I've driven plenty of manual gearboxes that had "character" that I'd swap for a DCT any day of the week.

Would it then suffer with the long gearing that, in my mind, detracts from the Cayman? Longer gears to improve 0-62/0-100 /emissions/economy issues?

I've heard that the long gearing is drive by noise regulations not emissions/economy.

That can't be the case as the same / similar gearing is used in the 981 and 718 across all variants. I think it may have been the the same in the 987 but I'm sure someone will point out if I'm wrong.

[av185]

Prestonese said:

Dale487 said:

Miserablegit said:

Agree- I'm all for choice however there would have been downsides:
Increased development costs would lead to increased prices or cost-cutting elsewhere as these cars are sold in relatively small numbers and will be off sale sometime in 2024.

Not all manuals are equal - there is an assumption that manual would be a great drive. I've driven plenty of manual gearboxes that had "character" that I'd swap for a DCT any day of the week.

Would it then suffer with the long gearing that, in my mind, detracts from the Cayman? Longer gears to improve 0-62/0-100 /emissions/economy issues?

I've heard that the long gearing is drive by noise regulations not emissions/economy.

That can't be the case as the same / similar gearing is used in the 981 and 718 across all variants. I think it may have been the the same in the 987 but I'm sure someone will point out if I'm wrong.

I've run a 981 GT4 981 Spyder and 718 GT4 from new and as usual most of the forum criticisms are from posters who have never even driven the cars but simply referred to a few road tests criticising the gearing as being long but this really isn't an issue especially in the 718 which has an 8k rev limit and far punchier bespoke engine v the 981 which basically has a detuned Carrera S engine although it does sound good being pre gpf.

As previously posted it is an internet myth that the PDK GT4 has much shorter ratios than the manual the speeds in each gear max revs are only slightly lower.

Incidentally the GT4 gearing has been retained on the 718 for no other reason than to simply to protect the performance crown of the 911 although for fast road use at least there is very little difference in rapidity between the 718 GT4 and 991.2 GT3 manual although as expected and as Porsche intended it is far more challenging to drive a GT3 fast than a GT4 due to its engine position and therein lies the challenge and enjoyment of the 911.

[Miserablegit]

The point being made is that the gearing on the Cayman is far from ideal for road work in the UK.

No point revving to 8k if it is only legally reached in first gear
No point having a great manual box if it’s hardly used

Short shifting just for the sake of using another gear means you’re missing max torque and power.

Whole point of an NA engine is to rev it

I agree that the Porsche PDK doesn’t deliver the gearing differences that had been anticipated.

[Prestonese]

av185 said:

Prestonese said:

Dale487 said:

Miserablegit said:

Agree- I'm all for choice however there would have been downsides:
Increased development costs would lead to increased prices or cost-cutting elsewhere as these cars are sold in relatively small numbers and will be off sale sometime in 2024.

Not all manuals are equal - there is an assumption that manual would be a great drive. I've driven plenty of manual gearboxes that had "character" that I'd swap for a DCT any day of the week.

Would it then suffer with the long gearing that, in my mind, detracts from the Cayman? Longer gears to improve 0-62/0-100 /emissions/economy issues?

I've heard that the long gearing is drive by noise regulations not emissions/economy.

That can't be the case as the same / similar gearing is used in the 981 and 718 across all variants. I think it may have been the the same in the 987 but I'm sure someone will point out if I'm wrong.

I've run a 981 GT4 981 Spyder and 718 GT4 from new and as usual most of the forum criticisms are from posters who have never even driven the cars but simply referred to a few road tests criticising the gearing as being long but this really isn't an issue especially in the 718 which has an 8k rev limit and far punchier bespoke engine v the 981 which basically has a detuned Carrera S engine although it does sound good being pre gpf.

As previously posted it is an internet myth that the PDK GT4 has much shorter ratios than the manual the speeds in each gear max revs are only slightly lower.

Incidentally the GT4 gearing has been retained on the 718 for no other reason than to simply to protect the performance crown of the 911 although for fast road use at least there is very little difference in rapidity between the 718 GT4 and 991.2 GT3 manual although as expected and as Porsche intended it is far more challenging to drive a GT3 fast than a GT4 due to its engine position and therein lies the challenge and enjoyment of the 911.

That wasn't the point I was making. We're going over old ground here and I'm sure everyone is bored to death of it. Just like the criticisms around the Alpine 'box.

It is easy to dismiss an auto transmission but if it is set up ideally for a road car, the decision between that and a manual is not that clear cut. There are obviously guys who see high gearing as a deal-breaker as well as those who are die hard manual only fans. You can argue the toss about it but ultimately it doesn't matter.

[SidewaysSi]

Miserablegit said:

The point being made is that the gearing on the Cayman is far from ideal for road work in the UK.

No point revving to 8k if it is only legally reached in first gear
No point having a great manual box if it’s hardly used

Short shifting just for the sake of using another gear means you’re missing max torque and power.

Whole point of an NA engine is to rev it

I agree that the Porsche PDK doesn’t deliver the gearing differences that had been anticipated.

You can change the Cayman's FD but can't get a manual in an Alpine unfortunately.

[bcr5784]

SidewaysSi said:

You can change the Cayman's FD but can't get a manual in an Alpine unfortunately.

Yes you can change the Cayman's FD (or use a different gear cluster). But hardly anyone is going to do it. All routes are very expensive, invalidate your warranty, make extended Porsche warranty unavailable, and will actually reduce resale value. I'm not sure what's available now, but when I had my 981 the FD that was available had a reputation for being fragile.

In short, for most people, it's a non-starter. A bit more likely than fitting the sequential gearbox from the A110 Cup car to a road going Alpine - but only a bit.

[av185]

Miserablegit said:

The point being made is that the gearing on the Cayman is far from ideal for road work in the UK.

No point revving to 8k if it is only legally reached in first gear
No point having a great manual box if it’s hardly used

Short shifting just for the sake of using another gear means you’re missing max torque and power.

Whole point of an NA engine is to rev it

I agree that the Porsche PDK doesn’t deliver the gearing differences that had been anticipated.

The 'long gearing' actually isn't an issue at all and really has been typically exaggerated by the Press simply to find a 'contraversial' fault with the car. Yes it is more of an issue with 981 GT4 than the 718 because the 981 has less power and a lower max rev limit and develops torque and max power at higher revs than the 718.

The 991.2 GT3 at max revs is doing exactly the same speed as the 718 GT4 at max revs i.e. 83 mph in second gear and as it is a non issue on the 911 it cannot be therefore and isn't an issue at all on the 718 GT4.

[ddom]

av185 said:

The 'long gearing' actually isn't an issue at all and really has been typically exaggerated by the Press simply to find a 'contraversial' fault with the car. Yes it is more of an issue with 981 GT4 than the 718 because the 981 has less power and a lower max rev limit and develops torque and max power at higher revs than the 718.

The 991.2 GT3 at max revs is doing exactly the same speed as the 718 GT4 at max revs i.e. 83 mph in second gear and as it is a non issue on the 911 it cannot be therefore and isn't an issue at all on the 718 GT4.

You forgot to add... 'for you'. Many others don't like the gearing.

[Prestonese]

av185 said:

Miserablegit said:

The point being made is that the gearing on the Cayman is far from ideal for road work in the UK.

No point revving to 8k if it is only legally reached in first gear
No point having a great manual box if it’s hardly used

Short shifting just for the sake of using another gear means you’re missing max torque and power.

Whole point of an NA engine is to rev it

I agree that the Porsche PDK doesn’t deliver the gearing differences that had been anticipated.

The 'long gearing' actually isn't an issue at all and really has been typically exaggerated by the Press simply to find a 'contraversial' fault with the car. Yes it is more of an issue with 981 GT4 than the 718 because the 981 has less power and a lower max rev limit and develops torque and max power at higher revs than the 718.

The 991.2 GT3 at max revs is doing exactly the same speed as the 718 GT4 at max revs i.e. 83 mph in second gear and as it is a non issue on the 911 it cannot be therefore and isn't an issue at all on the 718 GT4.

I'm not sure what world exists where 83mph in second is not an issue in a road car. It might be ok for the track but there will be plenty of other cars to compare and debate there. Also, the 991.2 GT3 soundtrack at max revs sounds a fair bit sweeter to me. The soundtrack is also more accessible.

[tarquin274]

I suppose the Alpine fans have to use any argument they can find to defend their car choice against Porsche.

Reality is the GT4 blows an A110 out of the water by miles, especially with that 4.0 litre engine.

Obviously there will be the usual nutters on here continually testifying otherwise, rowing against the normal current. I'd venture they are probably best ignored...

[Miserablegit]

The Alpine owners don’t need to defend their car choice to anybody. Many have a Porsche as well or had one before the Alpine.

[SidewaysSi]

tarquin274 said:

I suppose the Alpine fans have to use any argument they can find to defend their car choice against Porsche.

Reality is the GT4 blows an A110 out of the water by miles, especially with that 4.0 litre engine.

Obviously there will be the usual nutters on here continually testifying otherwise, rowing against the normal current. I'd venture they are probably best ignored...

Is this a joke? Or can you not read?

[Olivera]

Prestonese said:

I'm not sure what world exists where 83mph in second is not an issue in a road car. It might be ok for the track but there will be plenty of other cars to compare and debate there. Also, the 991.2 GT3 soundtrack at max revs sounds a fair bit sweeter to me. The soundtrack is also more accessible.

The 718 GT4 makes peak power at 7600rpm, so in reality you'll be changing up maybe 5mph earlier than 83mph. Still a tad too long, but gearing doesn't exist in isolation - there is a 4 litre engine to haul it along. Also track cars usually have shorter gearing than road cars, not the other way around.

[ddom]

tarquin274 said:

I suppose the Alpine fans have to use any argument they can find to defend their car choice against Porsche.

Reality is the GT4 blows an A110 out of the water by miles, especially with that 4.0 litre engine.

Obviously there will be the usual nutters on here continually testifying otherwise, rowing against the normal current. I'd venture they are probably best ignored...

As are those who constantly write the A110 off and miss the point of it by a country mile. The world has enough overweight and slightly sensible GT’s already….

It seems to be mostly Porsche owners who are triggered by the A110, despite their being a good few comments from those who have had both? They are chalk and cheese, and it’s great to have the choice.

[bcr5784]

tarquin274 said:

Obviously there will be the usual nutters on here continually testifying otherwise, rowing against the normal current. I'd venture they are probably best ignored...

I think I'll leave it you to explain to Gordon Murray that he is a nutter. Good luck with that....

[Prestonese]

Olivera said:

Prestonese said:

I'm not sure what world exists where 83mph in second is not an issue in a road car. It might be ok for the track but there will be plenty of other cars to compare and debate there. Also, the 991.2 GT3 soundtrack at max revs sounds a fair bit sweeter to me. The soundtrack is also more accessible.

The 718 GT4 makes peak power at 7600rpm, so in reality you'll be changing up maybe 5mph earlier than 83mph. Still a tad too long, but gearing doesn't exist in isolation - there is a 4 litre engine to haul it along. Also track cars usually have shorter gearing than road cars, not the other way around.

I'm confused then. Is the GT4 gearing good for the track or good for the road with those ratios? Cars like the Alpine, MX5 and the GR Yaris have short ratios and they are great for roads (at least the roads I drive). My experience of all Caymans was I'd have to keep them in second gear for the same roads or do some early shifting - and that's always the frustration as you're never in the sweet spot. I'm not saying the Cayman is a bad car but I never got the same satisfaction as you do driving the others. You can argue all day about what it's like on the track but not everyone use these cars as track toys or they use something even more focused. And it was also not the point of this article.

[footsoldier]

Miserablegit said:

The Alpine owners don’t need to defend their car choice to anybody. Many have a Porsche as well or had one before the Alpine.

I can only comment on 911GTS, GT3RS, GT2RS, 911R, 911T (1974 version) Turbo S, 918 … (and a Macan), but do rate the Alpine ;-)

[Miserablegit]

Is your car out of customs yet?

[footsoldier]

Miserablegit said:

Is your car out of customs yet?

Don’t know - Fridays seem to be best days from an update from dealer!
I’m expecting to collect next week or the following.

Edited by footsoldier on Wednesday 23 June 21:51

[av185]

Prestonese said:

Olivera said:

Prestonese said:

I'm not sure what world exists where 83mph in second is not an issue in a road car. It might be ok for the track but there will be plenty of other cars to compare and debate there. Also, the 991.2 GT3 soundtrack at max revs sounds a fair bit sweeter to me. The soundtrack is also more accessible.

The 718 GT4 makes peak power at 7600rpm, so in reality you'll be changing up maybe 5mph earlier than 83mph. Still a tad too long, but gearing doesn't exist in isolation - there is a 4 litre engine to haul it along. Also track cars usually have shorter gearing than road cars, not the other way around.

I'm confused then. Is the GT4 gearing good for the track or good for the road with those ratios? Cars like the Alpine, MX5 and the GR Yaris have short ratios and they are great for roads (at least the roads I drive). My experience of all Caymans was I'd have to keep them in second gear for the same roads or do some early shifting - and that's always the frustration as you're never in the sweet spot. I'm not saying the Cayman is a bad car but I never got the same satisfaction as you do driving the others. You can argue all day about what it's like on the track but not everyone use these cars as track toys or they use something even more focused. And it was also not the point of this article.

Have you even driven a 718 GT4 if so exactly what experience have you of the car and for what period of time and on which roads?