RE: Clive Sutton unveils 859hp CS850GT

[AdeTuono]

Rogue86 said:

AdeTuono said:

Just stop, would you? You're making yourself look foolish.

I guess I'm just not sure why people don't see the value in things generally any more. If you've got the time and knowledge to build your own for less money then you should absolutely go for it, but this thread is staple PH. One guy arguing based off a few threads he's read and a YouTube video and two others backing him up based on absolutely nothing other than the desire to get into an online fight. Not one of you with any experience in the thing you're arguing about.

Don't give up, do you? No, I've no experience at all. I'll just forget about the Rousch-charged Mustang S197 and the Hennessey HPE650 Camaro I owned then. As well as the three Z06 Corvettes, HSV Maloo, Tickford Falcon and many other modified vehicles I've been lucky enough to own over the last 30+ years.

Edited by AdeTuono on Friday 25th June 08:53

[Volvolover]

ducnick said:

Volvolover said:

ducnick said:

They have cottoned onto the fact they can build these simply by taking a mustang gt from ford £45k ish. Adding a whipple and oil pump £9k, some Bmr braces and kw coil overs £2k a full exhaust with headers £2.5k, a custom tune £500, wheels and tyres £2.5k and a few assorted Chinese body kit parts £2.5k
+ 1 weeks labour at one of the many specialists (I believe Sutton use gt101 in Essex but I may be wrong) for the build and hey presto you turn a tidy profit without worrying about import duties.

Far cheaper to buy your own mustang and ask gt101 or modurstang to do the build for you….. unless you really are desperate for a £40 grand Clive Sutton badge on the dash and arse.

Are you going to develop and test the custom tune and coil over sprig rates and damper settings for free?

No absolutely not, I would pay a professional to do it. Just like Sutton pay someone else to do it. Most people don’t understand the role of Sutton in this offering. Sutton’s main business is importing and selling LHD US cars in the U.K. in the case of these RHD mustangs, all Sutton do is source the car locally to save import costs then send the car off to a professional to do the work then stick a badge on it and market them on pistonheads. By forgoing the marketing and badge you can get a huge saving and still have an identical car built from the same aftermarket parts by exactly the same pair of hands at GT101 (or elsewhere)

Riiiight

So you'd build your own and pay a pro for a custom tune and for the custom spring and damper settings.........so you'd be spreading the development cost over a run of 1 car.

Sounds great, sure it would be cheap AND the equivalent of the Sutton car.

[s m]

Had a V8 Mustang as my second ever car back in my teens when they were cheap £1500 cars
This would be a really nice way to revisit the experience

Seems a lot of performance for the cash so I’ll keep doing the lottery! Top marks for having a manual box still too

[Rogue86]

AdeTuono said:

Don't give up, do you? No, I've no experience at all. I'll just forget about the Rousch-charged Mustang S197 and the Hennessey HPE650 Camaro I owned then. As well as the three Z06 Corvettes, HSV Maloo, Tickford Falcon and many other modified vehicles I've been lucky enough to own over the last 30+ years.

Edited by AdeTuono on Friday 25th June 08:53

You're not the only person to ever own a modified car, or a modified V8.

Unless your experience is of building upwards of 1000bhp S550s and making a profit on them then your experience in this thread is still zero.

Edited by Rogue86 on Friday 25th June 11:14

[AdeTuono]

Rogue86 said:

AdeTuono said:

Don't give up, do you? No, I've no experience at all. I'll just forget about the Rousch-charged Mustang S197 and the Hennessey HPE650 Camaro I owned then. As well as the three Z06 Corvettes, HSV Maloo, Tickford Falcon and many other modified vehicles I've been lucky enough to own over the last 30+ years.

Edited by AdeTuono on Friday 25th June 08:53

You're not the only person to ever own a modified car, or a modified V8.

Unless your experience is of building upwards of 1000bhp S550s and making a profit on them then your experience in this thread is still zero.

Edited by Rogue86 on Friday 25th June 11:14

And there was me thinking I was a pioneer.

[CaptainSensib1e]

AdeTuono said:

Rogue86 said:

AdeTuono said:

Don't give up, do you? No, I've no experience at all. I'll just forget about the Rousch-charged Mustang S197 and the Hennessey HPE650 Camaro I owned then. As well as the three Z06 Corvettes, HSV Maloo, Tickford Falcon and many other modified vehicles I've been lucky enough to own over the last 30+ years.

Edited by AdeTuono on Friday 25th June 08:53

You're not the only person to ever own a modified car, or a modified V8.

Unless your experience is of building upwards of 1000bhp S550s and making a profit on them then your experience in this thread is still zero.

Edited by Rogue86 on Friday 25th June 11:14

And there was me thinking I was a pioneer.

Christ, get a room you two.

[mylesmcd]

Rogue86 said:

mylesmcd said:

Seems like a decent place to start in my book. You sound like a man that has a deposit already in with Sutton might I add!

There is a difference between paying 10k for a supercharger that is rated to 1200bhp and building a 1200bhp car for 10k, you're aware of that? In this case that difference is an extra 0, which covers lots of things designed to actually get the engine to that power and keep it there without exploding all over the road in a shower of cogs and springs.

I don't really see how that makes me sound like I'm financially invested in this article. Perhaps YouTube might explain why, seems a good place to start.

Think you missed my point in your fury.

I was stating that if I was to consider a project like this, I would start with online research. My other point was that the way you are policing this thread makes me think, somewhat jokingly, you own one of these cars.

As for 1200bhp Mustangs. Nah, im good bro. You keep em.

[Rogue86]

mylesmcd said:

Think you missed my point in your fury.

I was stating that if I was to consider a project like this, I would start with online research. My other point was that the way you are policing this thread makes me think, somewhat jokingly, you own one of these cars.

As for 1200bhp Mustangs. Nah, im good bro. You keep em.

There's no fury at all, I think you're mistaking the fact that I reply to posts aimed at me as having a vested interest when I really don't. I may have a slight intolerance for bored middle-aged blokes wading in to the conversation with nothing but an insult, but then that is the staple PH experience.

I just (genuinely) don't understand the negative frame of mind it takes to look at something like this and without any kind of basis or formed thought, make an opinion on it. To label people working in the industry as being 'greedy' or 'insane' to charge what they do while openly admitting you don't know anything about the subject doesn't make sense to me.

I actually currently own a 70s Camaro that I've built myself. One of my regular photography clients is Motorsport and Performance so I regularly see the work that goes into cars of this standard and the price of the components that make these things up. The body parts alone are knocking on the door of £10k and that's before you've paid somebody to fit them for you. Let alone paid the wages of the guy actually doing the work, the unit it's being built in, insurances, pensions etc etc. People are the first to moan that there is no British motorsport industry and then moan when they think the work is too expensive (without having a formed thought on the work that goes into it).

I've been modifying my own cars for the best part of 20 years and even I can look at something like this and see value in it. Could I do it cheaper? Probably. But that doesn't mean the work would be done to the same standard and that the car would be as reliable.

[mylesmcd]

Rogue86 said:

mylesmcd said:

Think you missed my point in your fury.

I was stating that if I was to consider a project like this, I would start with online research. My other point was that the way you are policing this thread makes me think, somewhat jokingly, you own one of these cars.

As for 1200bhp Mustangs. Nah, im good bro. You keep em.

There's no fury at all, I think you're mistaking the fact that I reply to posts aimed at me as having a vested interest when I really don't. I may have a slight intolerance for bored middle-aged blokes wading in to the conversation with nothing but an insult, but then that is the staple PH experience.

I just (genuinely) don't understand the negative frame of mind it takes to look at something like this and without any kind of basis or formed thought, make an opinion on it. To label people working in the industry as being 'greedy' or 'insane' to charge what they do while openly admitting you don't know anything about the subject doesn't make sense to me.

I actually currently own a 70s Camaro that I've built myself. One of my regular photography clients is Motorsport and Performance so I regularly see the work that goes into cars of this standard and the price of the components that make these things up. The body parts alone are knocking on the door of £10k and that's before you've paid somebody to fit them for you. Let alone paid the wages of the guy actually doing the work, the unit it's being built in, insurances, pensions etc etc. People are the first to moan that there is no British motorsport industry and then moan when they think the work is too expensive (without having a formed thought on the work that goes into it).

I've been modifying my own cars for the best part of 20 years and even I can look at something like this and see value in it. Could I do it cheaper? Probably. But that doesn't mean the work would be done to the same standard and that the car would be as reliable.

Interesting. Do you also have a man bun to match the photography biz and bad ass Camaro that you currently drive around the UK? Tattoos and a killer insta account?

I am joking of course, but I also buy and sell/Import Export US Spec cars for a living. So I have seen my fair share of the modified (and non modified) Muscle cars market. So my thoughts on the subject are not really that uninformed.

[Rogue86]

mylesmcd said:

Interesting. Do you also have a man bun to match the photography biz and bad ass Camaro that you currently drive around the UK? Tattoos and a killer insta account?

I am joking of course, but I also buy and sell/Import Export US Spec cars for a living. So I have seen my fair share of the modified (and non modified) Muscle cars market. So my thoughts on the subject are not really that uninformed.

I'm going too bald to pull off a man bun to be honest. I've always had Japanese cars that I've built to go on the 'Ring so this was my first foray into something a bit more road-friendly I can just potter around in with the dog.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on it.

[mylesmcd]

Rogue86 said:

mylesmcd said:

Interesting. Do you also have a man bun to match the photography biz and bad ass Camaro that you currently drive around the UK? Tattoos and a killer insta account?

I am joking of course, but I also buy and sell/Import Export US Spec cars for a living. So I have seen my fair share of the modified (and non modified) Muscle cars market. So my thoughts on the subject are not really that uninformed.

I'm going too bald to pull off a man bun to be honest. I've always had Japanese cars that I've built to go on the 'Ring so this was my first foray into something a bit more road-friendly I can just potter around in with the dog.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on it.

I am rocking a mad side parting currently, which is more of a last ditch attempt before it all disappears. Do you have a thread on the camaro?

[Rogue86]

mylesmcd said:

I am rocking a mad side parting currently, which is more of a last ditch attempt before it all disappears. Do you have a thread on the camaro?

I hope you're growing a tiny little moustache to go with it. Yes - it's just over in the readers rides section. It's not comprehensive as most of the image hosting sites died while I was building it, but its got some recent/smaller bits in there. No photos of my mad tattoos though!

[SturdyHSV]

I think I'm in the middle of the argument in terms of value. I appreciate it's a business and if Sutton successfully sell them for that price, then they've hit their market well.

As for all the 'bespoke custom tunes and specced suspension' etc. I personally don't buy that. A 1200hp muscle car is not as unusual in the states, the bits on the Sutton cars will be well researched (costing just time online) and proven (again via online research, speaking to owners / suppliers) aftermarket bits, bolted on to the car, and then some badges made up.

I don't buy for a second that Sutton have paid for some bespoke suspension settings, beyond feasibly just phoning up and asking a supplier of one of the S550 coilover kits what they'd recommend for a 1200hp street build etc.

Labour adds a lot to the cost so if they're paying others to bolt the bits together I can well see a hefty wedge of it in labour, and then naturally they're a business that has to turn a profit too, so the price is perhaps more reasonable than it seems.

Personally I know more about the GM side of things, but if one wanted to do something like this themselves (so no labour costs), aside from buying the car I could easily imagine £30k could be spent on 'bits', especially once they're shipped over here with duties paid etc.

By no means a similar build, but I'm planning on taking my Commodore wagon to ~600hp, and am expecting to spend about £8k on a supercharger kit (so it all bolts on and fits / works), ~ £1k on mapping / a gearbox remap, ~£1k on suspension, ~ £700 on an exhaust and likely will need some brakes too...

That's only half the power which the rest of the drivetrain will likely survive, but feasibly will need to sort the LSD out (assume another £1k) and as I'm not too fussed about grippy tyres the half shafts should also survive, but that's already easily £15k for half the power and I'll have no labour costs or any need to turn a profit and already own the car (another £14k)

[mylesmcd]

Rogue86 said:

mylesmcd said:

I am rocking a mad side parting currently, which is more of a last ditch attempt before it all disappears. Do you have a thread on the camaro?

I hope you're growing a tiny little moustache to go with it. Yes - it's just over in the readers rides section. It's not comprehensive as most of the image hosting sites died while I was building it, but its got some recent/smaller bits in there. No photos of my mad tattoos though!

heheh, I would but it grows ginger and the mrs put her foot down on me going two tone! I ll check out the camaro now too, cheers

[mylesmcd]

SturdyHSV said:

I think I'm in the middle of the argument in terms of value. I appreciate it's a business and if Sutton successfully sell them for that price, then they've hit their market well.

As for all the 'bespoke custom tunes and specced suspension' etc. I personally don't buy that. A 1200hp muscle car is not as unusual in the states, the bits on the Sutton cars will be well researched (costing just time online) and proven (again via online research, speaking to owners / suppliers) aftermarket bits, bolted on to the car, and then some badges made up.

I don't buy for a second that Sutton have paid for some bespoke suspension settings, beyond feasibly just phoning up and asking a supplier of one of the S550 coilover kits what they'd recommend for a 1200hp street build etc.

Labour adds a lot to the cost so if they're paying others to bolt the bits together I can well see a hefty wedge of it in labour, and then naturally they're a business that has to turn a profit too, so the price is perhaps more reasonable than it seems.

Personally I know more about the GM side of things, but if one wanted to do something like this themselves (so no labour costs), aside from buying the car I could easily imagine £30k could be spent on 'bits', especially once they're shipped over here with duties paid etc.

By no means a similar build, but I'm planning on taking my Commodore wagon to ~600hp, and am expecting to spend about £8k on a supercharger kit (so it all bolts on and fits / works), ~ £1k on mapping / a gearbox remap, ~£1k on suspension, ~ £700 on an exhaust and likely will need some brakes too...

That's only half the power which the rest of the drivetrain will likely survive, but feasibly will need to sort the LSD out (assume another £1k) and as I'm not too fussed about grippy tyres the half shafts should also survive, but that's already easily £15k for half the power and I'll have no labour costs or any need to turn a profit and already own the car (another £14k)

I would love to get into the Ozzy stuff. In my experience the US market is a lot more open to adapting cars right from new. in the past few months I have sold 2 SRT Challengers that have gone directly to the mech shop for oil catch cans (invalidating warranty I imagine) not to mention super charging 2 month old S550. Maybe its the overall cost of doing so that makes it so popular.

[SturdyHSV]

mylesmcd said:

I would love to get into the Ozzy stuff. In my experience the US market is a lot more open to adapting cars right from new. in the past few months I have sold 2 SRT Challengers that have gone directly to the mech shop for oil catch cans (invalidating warranty I imagine) not to mention super charging 2 month old S550. Maybe its the overall cost of doing so that makes it so popular.

People are bringing over a fair few of the VE utes at the moment it seems, Holden prices are going stupid in Aus so unless you've got a good contact out there to find them it might be a lot of work, IVA wise they only need a foglight and mph conversion as far as I'm aware so not the end of the world.

Agreed many more (comparatively) in the US will take their new car straight to their local mechanic / speed shop and start making it their own. When Matt Le Blanc was asked about why this is the case on old Top Gear, I think he made an interesting point. Basically, he's really in to his cars, so why would he want his 911 to be the same as the guy's next to him who doesn't give a damn about cars

The cheapness and availability of everything has got to help though as well as the existing culture. I think it's great anyway

[Rogue86]

mylesmcd said:

In my experience the US market is a lot more open to adapting cars right from new.

I think you're right - that's starting to creep into the UK too. I saw that MAP took in a new Mach 1 that went straight from the dealership on a trailer to their workshop for some suspension upgrades. I'd be surprised if thats not supercharged/mapped as well over the next few months.

[mylesmcd]

So hang on, you go up in the jet to take those photos?

[Rogue86]

mylesmcd said:

So hang on, you go up in the jet to take those photos?

Hah, majorly off-topic but yes - I was a Combat Camera Team photographer when I did the majority of the aviation stuff. My career wasn't all man-buns and spiced lattes!

[mylesmcd]

Rogue86 said:

mylesmcd said:

So hang on, you go up in the jet to take those photos?

Hah, majorly off-topic but yes - I was a Combat Camera Team photographer when I did the majority of the aviation stuff. My career wasn't all man-buns and spiced lattes!

I work fairly closely with the 31st fighter wing in Aviano, I have see the F16 very close, but never been up in the air in a fighter. Now those boys like their lattes spiced alright!