RE: Ineos shows off Grenadier interior
Discussion
DonkeyApple said:
I don't think so. I think it's more to do with a lot of people unable to see clearly how it's going to attract 30k buyers a year.
It's really just another expensive toy unless they can genuinely make them very cheaply.
In the early days the vitriol emanated from those who saw this as some kind of Brexit champion but they've all evaporated now it's German and not likely to be sold for £20k.
I don't see that it was ever going to be £20k. According to JR, he wanted to buy the old Defender tooling and keep on producing it. In today's money, without any upgrades (or indeed return on capital to buy the tooling & set up a factory), that would cost almost as much as the Grenadier is suggested to be - inflation hasn't just stopped in the mean time. By any measure this will be a much more capable vehicle than the old Defender, but it isn't obviously being sold at a price far far in excess of the old one.It's really just another expensive toy unless they can genuinely make them very cheaply.
In the early days the vitriol emanated from those who saw this as some kind of Brexit champion but they've all evaporated now it's German and not likely to be sold for £20k.
LR sold 17-20k of the old one per year not so long ago, despite the poor reputation for reliability in much of the world. Of course nostalgia played a part there, but a target of 35k per year doesn't - to me, at least - seem completely unattainable.
DonkeyApple said:
It is difficult to work out what job it does that can't be done by something that already exists and is cheaper?
A LC70 Station Wagon is in the same ballpark price-wise as the Grenadier in key markets like Australia, South Africa, UAE, etc. The LC70 has an interior no more durable than the Grenadier's - recent updates have made it pretty civilised, with a large infotainment display. It has no diff locks. It is not going to be emissions-compliant for much of the world. Whilst there have been many upgrades, an LC70 is still based on a nearly 40 year old platform.Is it your contention that nobody can dare have a go at the LC70 market?
Many new (or reborn) brands have appeared over the last 20 years - each has found a space in the market, despite the market being pretty mature. Why do you believe this brand, specifically, cannot?
So we're clear, I'm not saying this will be a success; I'm just very curious why this specific brand seems to generate so many people determined to disprove its viability before it is even in production.
Looking at this I think Ineos is going after the Mercedes G Wagen/top end Defender market with this vehicle. Makes sense, you can leave the utility market to the japanese 4x4 specialists and sell individual vehicles at a much higher price per unit, with toys and optional extras.
The back to basics tough workhorse 4x4 thing is more of a sales gimmick anyway, used in fact by lots of manufacturers to push the aspirational overland explorer image to people who rarely adventure further than Waitrose car park. Look at sales of motorbikes, models like the BMW GS, Triumph Tiger and Honda Africa Twin are best sellers for their respective manufacturers.
The back to basics tough workhorse 4x4 thing is more of a sales gimmick anyway, used in fact by lots of manufacturers to push the aspirational overland explorer image to people who rarely adventure further than Waitrose car park. Look at sales of motorbikes, models like the BMW GS, Triumph Tiger and Honda Africa Twin are best sellers for their respective manufacturers.
Having seen the Grenadier and spoken to the Ineos team at Goodwood last weekend I have to say that in the flesh it does not look cheap at all.
I think a lot of the negative comments below miss the point of this vehicle, those comparing it to the new Defender should understand that his car is aimed at buyers of the old defender rather than the “Chelsea tractor” brigade this car is meant to be used in remote areas, off road, in difficult to access terrain, down on the farm etc, where cars get a real pounding.
The interior finishes are tough rather luxurious, there are also drainage plugs in the floor so it can be hosed out which gives a hint at its intended use. No farmer is going to buy the new Defender (ok, some will and have judging by the comments here ;-) ), while it is a very capable car the cost is prohibitive and the materials are just not robust enough (even the checker plating is plastic for pity sake!). As for the switch’s, the way it has been organised is that all the on road switching is on the dash so the driver doesn’t have to take their eyes to far from the road and the off road switches plus a host of auxiliary switched ready for accessories are on the roof panel out of the way.
I could go on and on explaining why this car makes absolute sense to its intended customers but I would recommend those interested take a look at the Ineos Grenadier website or better still go and see one before righting it off. The main point is this is not a car for those looking for a luxury lifestyle 4x4 it’s a tool to do a job and I think it will be hugely successful in it’s natural habitat!
I think a lot of the negative comments below miss the point of this vehicle, those comparing it to the new Defender should understand that his car is aimed at buyers of the old defender rather than the “Chelsea tractor” brigade this car is meant to be used in remote areas, off road, in difficult to access terrain, down on the farm etc, where cars get a real pounding.
The interior finishes are tough rather luxurious, there are also drainage plugs in the floor so it can be hosed out which gives a hint at its intended use. No farmer is going to buy the new Defender (ok, some will and have judging by the comments here ;-) ), while it is a very capable car the cost is prohibitive and the materials are just not robust enough (even the checker plating is plastic for pity sake!). As for the switch’s, the way it has been organised is that all the on road switching is on the dash so the driver doesn’t have to take their eyes to far from the road and the off road switches plus a host of auxiliary switched ready for accessories are on the roof panel out of the way.
I could go on and on explaining why this car makes absolute sense to its intended customers but I would recommend those interested take a look at the Ineos Grenadier website or better still go and see one before righting it off. The main point is this is not a car for those looking for a luxury lifestyle 4x4 it’s a tool to do a job and I think it will be hugely successful in it’s natural habitat!
Edited by Kayoed Owner on Thursday 15th July 21:18
Edited by Kayoed Owner on Thursday 15th July 21:21
Kayoed Owner said:
The interior finishes are tough rather luxurious, there are also drainage plugs in the floor so it can be hosed out which gives a hint at its intended use. No farmer is going to buy the new Defender, while it is a very capable car the cost is prohibitive and the materials are just not robust enough (even the checker plating is plastic for pity sake!). As for the switch’s, the way it has been organised is that all the on road switching is on the dash so the driver doesn’t have to take their eyes to far from the road and the off road switches plus a host of auxiliary switched ready for accessories are on the roof panel out of the way.
I could go on and on explaining why this car makes absolute sense to its intended customers but I would recommend those interested take a look at the Ineos Grenadier website or better still go and see one before staging it off. The main point is this is not a car for those looking for a luxury lifestyle 4x4 it’s a tool to do a job and I think it will be hugely successful in it’s natural habitat!
I know a couple of people who've already acquired the new Defender as a working vehicle, including a hill farmer, albeit a well to do one. Farmers can exhibit the same levels of brand loyalty/snobbery as anyone else, not all purchasing decisions are made purely on a practical basis despite what they'll have you believe. Farming and farm equipment is quite sophisticated these days and the cost of even quite modest equipment makes the RRP of a Grenadier or a Defender seem paltry.I could go on and on explaining why this car makes absolute sense to its intended customers but I would recommend those interested take a look at the Ineos Grenadier website or better still go and see one before staging it off. The main point is this is not a car for those looking for a luxury lifestyle 4x4 it’s a tool to do a job and I think it will be hugely successful in it’s natural habitat!
I have looked at the Ineos Grenadier website and it is all very similar to the way Land Rover and other manufacturers of high end overland vehicles are marketed, which is very aspirational, conservationists, yachtspeople, cattle station managers, not many quarry workers or civil engineers. There's nothing wrong with that but this is most certainly not being aimed at the utility off road market.
Kayoed Owner said:
Sensible stuff
The interesting point for me is that if you hypothetically lined up the Grenadier and the new Defender side by side 3 years ago without any badging and said which better represents the ‘spirit’ of the Defender I suspect most people would choose the Grenadier.We have a situation where vocal people have set our all they wanted the new Defender to be (hose out interior, fixable without a degree in electronics, purposeful, eye on the future nod to the past etc) and then got hot under the collar when the new Defender didn’t quite deliver to their specification.
What Land Rover did was deliver a car they knew they had to make - and a cracking car it is too. They realised that, whilst they had to listen to the One Life Live It community, that community largely doesn’t buy new cars. Ergo you listen but attach the appropriate amount of weight to their comments.
The Grenadier then comes along and the same vocal people who have had their prayers answered directly pipe up nitpicking about some massively minor subjective detail or thinking they know more about the business model than one of Britain’s most successful industrialists of modern times.
The same people will then spend hours spunking over 10k examples in the classifieds in several years time and lapping them up. In hindsight we will look back and wonder how anyone had the balls to build such a car when most conventional car makers are rushing to make bland electrified white goods.
I’m in Sir Jim, crack on sir
Kayoed Owner said:
.....No farmer is going to buy the new Defender, while it is a very capable car the cost is prohibitive and the materials are just not robust enough (even the checker plating is plastic for pity sake!). .....
I just did! 
I'll look at the Grenadier with an open mind when I can get my hands on one too.
CS Garth said:
What Land Rover did was deliver a car they knew they had to make - and a cracking car it is too. They realised that, whilst they had to listen to the One Life Live It community, that community largely doesn’t buy new cars. Ergo you listen but attach the appropriate amount of weight to their comments.
My sense is that "that community" don't buy new cars *in the UK*. The USA is different - many buy brand new Jeeps, Defenders, etc. and modify them (or buy them optioned) to be "trail rated."That "One Life Live It" community are also valuable in setting the tone and, to an extent, underpinning residuals. So they are important not to ignore lest te brand suffer (if not today, if not tomorrow, them someday soon, etc...).
I don't yet know if LR have pulled that off quite - the faux chequer plate is a bit of a step too far for me (how hard would it have been to make the whole thing just a *little* less "lifestyley"?), whilst the central seat stuff seems to rather miss the point for me and the 90 step-floor just looks like a mess. The vehicle is very capable, certainly, but also missing a certain something. The fact the 110's boot is so small isn't great, etiher, and the downrate in payload (a 110 Hard Top will carry 800kg, vs the previous generation's >1000kg) seems a strange choice to make.
I'm waiting for the proposed 130 to see if that delivers a more usable replacement for the 110 of old. And I'm keen to see and try a Grenadier.
PH User said:
Wasn't this one of the big complaints with the Defender?
That and the fact that it wouldn't survive if you chucked it out the back of a helicopter!
Yup. The 90 I think doesn't have a perfectly flat floor. That and the fact that it wouldn't survive if you chucked it out the back of a helicopter!
And not only could you not airdrop it but not can you fit a dead giraffe in there or use it for extreme dogging.
phatman5000 said:
Like many, my attention is immediately drawn to the toot button.
Which is - if it is what I think it is - the most important automotive invention since the rubber tyre.
If there's one thing I can't stand, it's some fluff-brained moron blasting a 110dB air horn down a road to say bye to her friend that she's already said bye to - or laughing as their rotten little toddler smashes it for fun in the car park, melting the eardrums of everyone within 100 yards.
They need a toot button.
My old Citroen CX 2400 had both a city and a motorway horn button as standard. Which is - if it is what I think it is - the most important automotive invention since the rubber tyre.
If there's one thing I can't stand, it's some fluff-brained moron blasting a 110dB air horn down a road to say bye to her friend that she's already said bye to - or laughing as their rotten little toddler smashes it for fun in the car park, melting the eardrums of everyone within 100 yards.
They need a toot button.
skwdenyer said:
My sense is that "that community" don't buy new cars *in the UK*. The USA is different - many buy brand new Jeeps, Defenders, etc. and modify them (or buy them optioned) to be "trail rated."
That "One Life Live It" community are also valuable in setting the tone and, to an extent, underpinning residuals. So they are important not to ignore lest te brand suffer (if not today, if not tomorrow, them someday soon, etc...).
I don't think the classic Land-Rover and OLLI brigade are regarded as a positive boon or even thought of at all by JLR, they generally exist completely independently of each other. I doubt JLR are especially happy about the association with a bunch of scruffy overweight men with beards and cable knit sweaters driving around in time expired smoky old heaps with lift kits and oversized tyres. That "One Life Live It" community are also valuable in setting the tone and, to an extent, underpinning residuals. So they are important not to ignore lest te brand suffer (if not today, if not tomorrow, them someday soon, etc...).
I should point out that we in the old Land Rover fraternity generally tend not to bother the new or nearly new Land Rover marketplace anyway, I have had the same mid 60s vehicle for over twenty five years now and can't really see me upgrading, although I do like the new Defender, but would only get one as a work vehicle.
I am willing to give the Grenadier a fair go, but as I have pointed out what Ineos are claiming the vehicle is does not necessarily tally with either the notional rrp or the product design. It would have been possible to design a sort of Defender minus most of the flaws but I don't think the Grenadier is that vehicle based on what I've seen so far.
croyde said:
phatman5000 said:
Like many, my attention is immediately drawn to the toot button.
Which is - if it is what I think it is - the most important automotive invention since the rubber tyre.
If there's one thing I can't stand, it's some fluff-brained moron blasting a 110dB air horn down a road to say bye to her friend that she's already said bye to - or laughing as their rotten little toddler smashes it for fun in the car park, melting the eardrums of everyone within 100 yards.
They need a toot button.
My old Citroen CX 2400 had both a city and a motorway horn button as standard. Which is - if it is what I think it is - the most important automotive invention since the rubber tyre.
If there's one thing I can't stand, it's some fluff-brained moron blasting a 110dB air horn down a road to say bye to her friend that she's already said bye to - or laughing as their rotten little toddler smashes it for fun in the car park, melting the eardrums of everyone within 100 yards.
They need a toot button.
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