RE: Ineos shows off Grenadier interior
Discussion
Newarch said:
If this comes out and isn't simply a competitor to the new Defender and the Mercedes G Wagen I will be astounded. I can't see it as a modern evolution of the old Defender because of the price and the user base. Interestingly when we hire a off roader from SHB we are still given a five-eight year old Defender 110, nice to see they are still in circulation.
Interesting that SHB don’t offer you an Isuzu or Toyota - apparently (according to some on this thread) only those required in some way to buy Defenders for work actually did so 
PH User said:
Honeywell said:
I love the Grenadier. I may well buy on for the farm. The Landrover is not for me, its for city folks.
The Grenadier is more fashion focused than the Land Rover, it has that wannabe Lara Croft sort of vibe about it. CS Garth said:
PH User said:
Honeywell said:
I love the Grenadier. I may well buy on for the farm. The Landrover is not for me, its for city folks.
The Grenadier is more fashion focused than the Land Rover, it has that wannabe Lara Croft sort of vibe about it. PH User said:
Yes, Land Rover has been a lifestyle brand for sometime and this car is massively tapping into that.
I think it’s going to be difficult to decide how we ultimately feel about it until we’ve seen it, sat in it and hopefully driven it. I’m annoyed at myself for giving my Goodwood tickets away due to a clash as I would have loved to have seen it there.
Do we know if they have made any kind of statements as to how people will be able to view/test drive one? Are they perhaps attending some of the large agricultural shows/doing pop up events/show rooms?
Howitzer said:
I really liked the new Defender and also the decent engine options so we could get a petrol. Sadly though after seeing them out and about around Bridgnorth it’s simply too big. It’s a pain at times the width of the ML but the Defender takes it to another level. Also the width seems to barely be different from the mirrors to the body. Seeing people struggling to park them also puts me off.
You’ll be disappointed to find out that the Grenadier is just as wide as a new Defender, then.NomduJour said:
Howitzer said:
I really liked the new Defender and also the decent engine options so we could get a petrol. Sadly though after seeing them out and about around Bridgnorth it’s simply too big. It’s a pain at times the width of the ML but the Defender takes it to another level. Also the width seems to barely be different from the mirrors to the body. Seeing people struggling to park them also puts me off.
You’ll be disappointed to find out that the Grenadier is just as wide as a new Defender, then.New Defender: 1996
Grenadier: 1930
W164 ML: 1911
So it is true the Grenadier is rather closer to the ML than to the Defender.
CS Garth said:
For me it’s completely the other way round. Land Rover has been a lifestyle brand for some time now. I don’t mean this in a pejorative sense as they are still hugely capable off road but they are very much targeting the aspirant lifestyle market.
Very capable off road !!! Or just some marketing BS that has convinced some that they Might have some special technology that can defy the laws of physics .skwdenyer said:
NomduJour said:
Howitzer said:
I really liked the new Defender and also the decent engine options so we could get a petrol. Sadly though after seeing them out and about around Bridgnorth it’s simply too big. It’s a pain at times the width of the ML but the Defender takes it to another level. Also the width seems to barely be different from the mirrors to the body. Seeing people struggling to park them also puts me off.
You’ll be disappointed to find out that the Grenadier is just as wide as a new Defender, then.New Defender: 1996
Grenadier: 1930
W164 ML: 1911
So it is true the Grenadier is rather closer to the ML than to the Defender.
CS Garth said:
PH User said:
Honeywell said:
I love the Grenadier. I may well buy on for the farm. The Landrover is not for me, its for city folks.
The Grenadier is more fashion focused than the Land Rover, it has that wannabe Lara Croft sort of vibe about it. The thing about the Land Rover is that very few owners in its production lifetime owned lavatories inside their home. It could afford to be rough and ready because most user's lives were still immensely third world. Those typical customers have now evolved from having to coil one up in a shed at the back of the property to being able to coil one up in their own bedroom.
As such the products they buy must operate in line with this current quality of life. Land Rover run this very much in the premium sector because that's the only way they can create enough product margin through which to bury their inefficiencies. They don't have the economies of scale of larger firms.
Ineos have even fewer economies of scale being a single model company yet also must fill their vehicle with creature comforts and modern safety requirements and I think it's extremely fashion focussed but targeting a different fashion group than LR do. LR pretty much target any age, sex, belief etc and generally the core focus is on comfort and lifestyle for a wide group who sit in a relatively broad wealth demographic. Ineos look to be targetting a particular niche within that wealth demographic.
It is all very interesting but primarily because I just can't workout who other than a particular lifestyle consumer who is buying as a very bold fashion statement (let's say that the fashion here is a kind of 'anti fashion'). I'm fascinated to eventually see who they sell this to and what their pricing is as it has gone way over my head. I can usually picture the target market but unless the price is much cheaper than it sounds like it will be then I'm not getting it at all.
Ivan stewart said:
CS Garth said:
For me it’s completely the other way round. Land Rover has been a lifestyle brand for some time now. I don’t mean this in a pejorative sense as they are still hugely capable off road but they are very much targeting the aspirant lifestyle market.
Very capable off road !!! Or just some marketing BS that has convinced some that they Might have some special technology that can defy the laws of physics .
Max_Torque said:
The problem is this project was born out of b*llsh*t and hasn't got any better
The reason the Grenadire exists is because, according to Ratcliff, JLR are "doing it wrong". From a position of total ignorance he proclaimed to all that would listen that the ned Defender was not a real defender (what ever clap trap that means).
Thing is, and lets be quite clear here, if JLR could have remade the Defender as it was, as a ruffy tuffy utility vehicle and made money on it, then this is exactly what they would have done. JLR are not stupid, they have decent development funding, a great team of ethusiastic engineers, lots of whom are proper petrolheads, they know everything about the defender and it's market (rememeber it is they JLR, who have actually been making the thing for the last 70 years!). But they couldn't. They did the sums, looked at the markets and the buisness case simply didn't stack up.
And yet, Ratcliff in his ivory castle of having never actually made a car in his life proclaims "they are doing it wrong" and starts his vanity project to show them. Well, lets see which company is still making off-roaders in 2040 shall we. I know who my money is on...............
So why didn’t JLR develop the defender ?The reason the Grenadire exists is because, according to Ratcliff, JLR are "doing it wrong". From a position of total ignorance he proclaimed to all that would listen that the ned Defender was not a real defender (what ever clap trap that means).
Thing is, and lets be quite clear here, if JLR could have remade the Defender as it was, as a ruffy tuffy utility vehicle and made money on it, then this is exactly what they would have done. JLR are not stupid, they have decent development funding, a great team of ethusiastic engineers, lots of whom are proper petrolheads, they know everything about the defender and it's market (rememeber it is they JLR, who have actually been making the thing for the last 70 years!). But they couldn't. They did the sums, looked at the markets and the buisness case simply didn't stack up.
And yet, Ratcliff in his ivory castle of having never actually made a car in his life proclaims "they are doing it wrong" and starts his vanity project to show them. Well, lets see which company is still making off-roaders in 2040 shall we. I know who my money is on...............
I’m a 200tdi owner and the TD5 onwards chassis rotted much worse than earlier models.
Gearbox issues on the 6 speed.
Water leaks in the body, never properly addressed.
Noisy inside, people were making far far better NVH kit than JLR ever did and were willing to pay for it.
No locking diffs on the options list, you had to go elsewhere.
Literally the only thing they did in the development of the Defender was better heating and cooling in the cabin. Which resulted to a huge lump on the dash and a big reduction in cabin space.
The reason the market for Defenders went down was the total lack of development and not listening to what customers wanted.
It’s why people went to the huge amount of companies that were born from JLRs failings. This is people who bought brand new vehicles etc.
Dave!
None were born from their failings. LR's product only ever sold in closed shop environments controlled by the British Govt, the last being the MOD at the turn of the century.
It was kept alive in the end on lifestyle sales and eventually those dwindled to the point that it wasn't commercially viable to continue.
It was kept alive in the end on lifestyle sales and eventually those dwindled to the point that it wasn't commercially viable to continue.
NomduJour said:
Howitzer said:
So why didn’t JLR develop the defender ?
Because it wasn’t capable of being developed - the writing was on the wall back when the Series III arrived instead of an all-new design. Of course the Defender could have been developed. Just applying post-Victorian manufacturing thinking to it it would have yielded endless incremental benefits. Over time it would have - at the least - become something of what the Grenadier is.
The problem was that by the time this was culturally possible, the market had been lost. All those years of ignoring reliability. For years - decades - the LR was a cash cow.
So are you saying that the many small flaws which annoyed people in the Defender couldn’t be fixed over the course of 30 years ?
I’m not saying the Defender as it was at its demise could be sold today, but if you think the changes people were screaming for couldn’t be made then thats crazy. The aftermarket could cater for them but people wanted those things as options on a standard vehicle. Not wanting to buy a vehicle and then having it modified by the likes of Foley etc.
I hope the Grenadier people do a pick-up version for the likes of tree surgeons and civil jobs require. At least the ladder frame makes it an option but I have t heard any mention of one bar the double cab and that’s not a big enough bed.
Ultimately the sales will show if they got the market right or not.
Dave!
I’m not saying the Defender as it was at its demise could be sold today, but if you think the changes people were screaming for couldn’t be made then thats crazy. The aftermarket could cater for them but people wanted those things as options on a standard vehicle. Not wanting to buy a vehicle and then having it modified by the likes of Foley etc.
I hope the Grenadier people do a pick-up version for the likes of tree surgeons and civil jobs require. At least the ladder frame makes it an option but I have t heard any mention of one bar the double cab and that’s not a big enough bed.
Ultimately the sales will show if they got the market right or not.
Dave!
skwdenyer said:
The new G wagon isn’t a “development” it is a re-engineered pastiche. A good one, it has to be said.
Of course the Defender could have been developed. Just applying post-Victorian manufacturing thinking to it it would have yielded endless incremental benefits. Over time it would have - at the least - become something of what the Grenadier is.
In full agreement about the G-Class being an embarrassment, but I can’t see any way of making an old Defender comply with modern standards and expectations without starting over.Of course the Defender could have been developed. Just applying post-Victorian manufacturing thinking to it it would have yielded endless incremental benefits. Over time it would have - at the least - become something of what the Grenadier is.
Howitzer said:
So are you saying that the many small flaws which annoyed people in the Defender couldn’t be fixed over the course of 30 years ?
Yes. How are you going to make an old Defender comply with modern safety legislation, for a start? All been done to death on here.
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