RE: Ineos shows off Grenadier interior
Discussion
NomduJour said:
Yes. How are you going to make an old Defender comply with modern safety legislation, for a start?
All been done to death on here.
I think you read my reply wrong. I said all the Defenders failings could have been dealt with over the 30 years it was being made and Land Rover did the absolute bare minimum. They could have been in the utility market till the last vehicle sold but they had already left through not developing their product. All been done to death on here.
They want what they have now which is fine and I think width aside, the new Defender is great. To say it couldn’t be done is not true though because if they wanted to they would have made something similar to the Grenadier.
As before, I hope it does well as I really like the vehicle but only sales will say for sure.
Dave!
Howitzer said:
NomduJour said:
Yes. How are you going to make an old Defender comply with modern safety legislation, for a start?
All been done to death on here.
I think you read my reply wrong. I said all the Defenders failings could have been dealt with over the 30 years it was being made and Land Rover did the absolute bare minimum. They could have been in the utility market till the last vehicle sold but they had already left through not developing their product. All been done to death on here.
They want what they have now which is fine and I think width aside, the new Defender is great. To say it couldn’t be done is not true though because if they wanted to they would have made something similar to the Grenadier.
As before, I hope it does well as I really like the vehicle but only sales will say for sure.
Dave!
The product did not evolve. It was frozen in time. The transition from Series III to 90/110 was, in effect, the least they could do. But even if they'd started there and moved on, they could have made great strides for very little cost (the tooling costs of individual changes on that platform are not large).
You’d have to start over, its actual method of construction prevents it from ever being capable of meeting modern standards. An all-new welded body would need a different chassis, which would need to be engineered for crash safety etc - there’d be nothing left.
Look at the SD5, Project Challenger/Defender 2, LCV2/3 etc (and the supposed Bronco/Defender platform share from the Ford days).
Look at the SD5, Project Challenger/Defender 2, LCV2/3 etc (and the supposed Bronco/Defender platform share from the Ford days).
skwdenyer said:
Had the product evolved from the 60s onwards, it would today be a Grenadier or something more advanced.
The product did not evolve. It was frozen in time. The transition from Series III to 90/110 was, in effect, the least they could do. But even if they'd started there and moved on, they could have made great strides for very little cost (the tooling costs of individual changes on that platform are not large).
Agreed, they essentially kept the emissions where they had to, put a better heater in and did nothing else of any real improvement. The product did not evolve. It was frozen in time. The transition from Series III to 90/110 was, in effect, the least they could do. But even if they'd started there and moved on, they could have made great strides for very little cost (the tooling costs of individual changes on that platform are not large).
The reliability was also a big factor and people are less and less willing to do maintenance as much as they used to, which is understandable.
Dave!
NomduJour said:
You’d have to start over, its actual method of construction prevents it from ever being capable of meeting modern standards. An all-new welded body would need a different chassis, which would need to be engineered for crash safety etc - there’d be nothing left.
Look at the SD5, Project Challenger/Defender 2, LCV2/3 etc (and the supposed Bronco/Defender platform share from the Ford days).
The point being made is that *incremental* change could have got you there.Look at the SD5, Project Challenger/Defender 2, LCV2/3 etc (and the supposed Bronco/Defender platform share from the Ford days).
Instead (and this was a very common BL problem), various "clean sheet" projects were proposed and then dismissed.
Compare against, say, the Toyota LC70 - on the surface, that's a 40 year old design, but has been continually updated.
Anyhow, all moot now.
The defender didn’t get upgraded as LR as a company kept getting punted from owner to owner and the more profitable models needed the cash.
In the old defenders life we got 4 RR, 4 Discoveries, 2 freelanders, 2 RRS, 1 evoque and 1 Disco sport.
All those models soaked up cash and at times LR or it’s parent company didn’t, or couldn’t spend the cash.
So the Defender got the bare minimum and left to it as it was selling enough to justify keeping going.
Plus there is the simply reality that the market kept changing.
Look how the RR has changed as customers demands changed. The Discovery has changed massively.
A 4 wheel tractor isn’t what the majority want.
The majority of my Classic defender owning friends use them as a 2nd or 3rd car.
It’s not a car for daily driving for many due to its many short comings.
In the old defenders life we got 4 RR, 4 Discoveries, 2 freelanders, 2 RRS, 1 evoque and 1 Disco sport.
All those models soaked up cash and at times LR or it’s parent company didn’t, or couldn’t spend the cash.
So the Defender got the bare minimum and left to it as it was selling enough to justify keeping going.
Plus there is the simply reality that the market kept changing.
Look how the RR has changed as customers demands changed. The Discovery has changed massively.
A 4 wheel tractor isn’t what the majority want.
The majority of my Classic defender owning friends use them as a 2nd or 3rd car.
It’s not a car for daily driving for many due to its many short comings.
skwdenyer said:
The point being made is that *incremental* change could have got you there.
Compare against, say, the Toyota LC70 - on the surface, that's a 40 year old design, but has been continually updated
The J70 was a new car at the same time the 90/110 arrived, and is now as compromised and out-of-date as you might expect - but, like a W460 G, it didn’t still have a flimsy, cramped, riveted-and-bolted body that was archaic even in the 1950s. Compare against, say, the Toyota LC70 - on the surface, that's a 40 year old design, but has been continually updated
gravitygravy said:
Unless you need to tow stuff, the Suzuki Jimny is the real spiritual successor to SWB series Landys. Similar size and although compromised as a road car, light years ahead of a Landy while still being body on frame.
Yeah true, although having done a fair amount of towing with a Series Land Rover they’re not exactly the last word in towing ability, I occasionally tow 2 tonnes with mine and I think that’s probably the absolute limit.That said the new Jimmy is really expensive even newish secondhand, I thought it would be less than 20 grand.
Countdown said:
Honeywell said:
I love the Grenadier. I may well buy on for the farm. The Landrover is not for me, its for city folks.
Out of interest what does the Grenadier do that a Hilux won't?Where the Defender excelled was it’s versatility and classlessness - you could smash about in it all day as a workhorse and still drive it pretty much anywhere in the evening from the local pub to the Dorchester and you would be welcomed. You can’t do that in Hi Lux without having them thinking the bloke who does the ferets for the hunt has rocked up with his handled tankard.
The Grenadier seems to me to capture that classless spirit of the Defender and offer a genuine potential one car solution.
CS Garth said:
Countdown said:
Honeywell said:
I love the Grenadier. I may well buy on for the farm. The Landrover is not for me, its for city folks.
Out of interest what does the Grenadier do that a Hilux won't?Where the Defender excelled was it’s versatility and classlessness - you could smash about in it all day as a workhorse and still drive it pretty much anywhere in the evening from the local pub to the Dorchester and you would be welcomed. You can’t do that in Hi Lux without having them thinking the bloke who does the ferets for the hunt has rocked up with his handled tankard.
The Grenadier seems to me to capture that classless spirit of the Defender and offer a genuine potential one car solution.
CS Garth said:
For me it’s the how as well as the what. The Hi Lux will always be what it is - and only that. I’m not talking about towing capacity or Top Trumps style stats, rather that if you have a Hi Lux you’re likely going to need another car as well.
Where the Defender excelled was it’s versatility and classlessness - you could smash about in it all day as a workhorse and still drive it pretty much anywhere in the evening from the local pub to the Dorchester and you would be welcomed. You can’t do that in Hi Lux without having them thinking the bloke who does the ferets for the hunt has rocked up with his handled tankard.
The Grenadier seems to me to capture that classless spirit of the Defender and offer a genuine potential one car solution.
Haha, I obviously don't care as I use my Hilux for most things! I quite like the fact that it doesn't look flash. Where the Defender excelled was it’s versatility and classlessness - you could smash about in it all day as a workhorse and still drive it pretty much anywhere in the evening from the local pub to the Dorchester and you would be welcomed. You can’t do that in Hi Lux without having them thinking the bloke who does the ferets for the hunt has rocked up with his handled tankard.
The Grenadier seems to me to capture that classless spirit of the Defender and offer a genuine potential one car solution.
For those that do care, a modern Land Cruiser in a subdued colour is far more subtle and classless than anything LR have produced for years.
CS Garth said:
For me it’s the how as well as the what. The Hi Lux will always be what it is - and only that. I’m not talking about towing capacity or Top Trumps style stats, rather that if you have a Hi Lux you’re likely going to need another car as well.
Where the Defender excelled was it’s versatility and classlessness - you could smash about in it all day as a workhorse and still drive it pretty much anywhere in the evening from the local pub to the Dorchester and you would be welcomed. You can’t do that in Hi Lux without having them thinking the bloke who does the ferets for the hunt has rocked up with his handled tankard.
The Grenadier seems to me to capture that classless spirit of the Defender and offer a genuine potential one car solution.
That's interesting. My grandparents were originally farmers and my dad still owns a lot of land (not in the UK). Everybody [who can afford one] either has a Hilux if they need a Utility car or a Landcruiser if they want something flashy. A landrover doesn't get a look in because they're simply not as good on a day to day basis.Where the Defender excelled was it’s versatility and classlessness - you could smash about in it all day as a workhorse and still drive it pretty much anywhere in the evening from the local pub to the Dorchester and you would be welcomed. You can’t do that in Hi Lux without having them thinking the bloke who does the ferets for the hunt has rocked up with his handled tankard.
The Grenadier seems to me to capture that classless spirit of the Defender and offer a genuine potential one car solution.
If Ineos are going for the Workhorse/Dorchester market then their client base is going to be VERY limited. OTOH If they're going for the type of people who genuinely need it as a working tool and aren't bothered about projecting an image (ie the bloke who does the ferrets for the hunt) then, as you imply, he's probably got a Trojan, a Barbarian, a Warrior, or a Mitsubishi Smallcock.
PH User said:
As has been said before, it's a fashion thing.
You can’t credibly think that Ineos have pumped a billion quid into this in the hope that it obtains iconic status as some kind of vagazzled trinket of the the middle classes and shifts 30k units PA into this demographic?Of course it will pick up some of these sales but to dismiss it as fashion is bonkers. Watch some of the VTs on the Ineos website (Building the Grenadier) - number 8 is quite insightful.
CS Garth said:
You can’t credibly think that Ineos have pumped a billion quid into this in the hope that it obtains iconic status as some kind of vagazzled trinket of the the middle classes and shifts 30k units PA into this demographic?
Of course it will pick up some of these sales but to dismiss it as fashion is bonkers. Watch some of the VTs on the Ineos website (Building the Grenadier) - number 8 is quite insightful.
Ok so forgetting the fashion/image aspect....what will the Grenadier do that various japanese pickups won't do for less money?Of course it will pick up some of these sales but to dismiss it as fashion is bonkers. Watch some of the VTs on the Ineos website (Building the Grenadier) - number 8 is quite insightful.
Countdown said:
That's interesting. My grandparents were originally farmers and my dad still owns a lot of land (not in the UK). Everybody [who can afford one] either has a Hilux if they need a Utility car or a Landcruiser if they want something flashy. A landrover doesn't get a look in because they're simply not as good on a day to day basis.
If Ineos are going for the Workhorse/Dorchester market then their client base is going to be VERY limited. OTOH If they're going for the type of people who genuinely need it as a working tool and aren't bothered about projecting an image (ie the bloke who does the ferrets for the hunt) then, as you imply, he's probably got a Trojan, a Barbarian, a Warrior, or a Mitsubishi Smallcock.
We’re making it sound like the Dorchester is rammed with fencing contractors every night now If Ineos are going for the Workhorse/Dorchester market then their client base is going to be VERY limited. OTOH If they're going for the type of people who genuinely need it as a working tool and aren't bothered about projecting an image (ie the bloke who does the ferrets for the hunt) then, as you imply, he's probably got a Trojan, a Barbarian, a Warrior, or a Mitsubishi Smallcock.
I’m going out on a limb here but I think Ineos are being totally unconventional about it.
I don’t think they have done what traditional car companies do which is to say “our focus groups are telling our agencies who are telling our marketing people that we need an X segment car and the great unwashed will pay up to X a month for it”.
I think they are employing a more ‘we’ll built it and they’ll come’ attitude based on their belief, or more possible Ratcliffe’s , that there is a market for an honest, authentic workhorse for business or pleasure. Of course they will have done some very detailed viability modelling about assumptions about which countries will take how many but I think until they get it out there they don’t know themselves.
Will the Govts buy it? NGOs? Utility companies? Farmers? Builders? Tupperware titted orange housewives of Cheshire? Who knows?!!
But when you’ve got more cash than you can shake a stick at then your gambles take on a slightly more interesting size and scale.
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