Wells Vertige - New British sportscar

[Andy665]

As I suspected from what I saw / heard at the Open Day, Wells have been a little surprised at how people have reacted to the car - I sensed it within minutes of arriving on Saturday, there was a genuine feeling of positivity and the other potential customers I spoke to were as impressed with the car as I was.

All of this has meant that I have just placed my deposit on a car that I do not know when I will be getting (hopefully 2026 - this is not critical for me) or how much its going to cost me (slightly more of an issue)

Deposits are fully refundable for up to 5 days after a full test drive which are now being scheduled for September.

I have been giving thought to other cars that have been on my "list", namely an Atom 4, Alpine A110 and Morgan Super 3 and how close they meet my criteria - fun to drive, usable for more than a few days per yer, sensible running costs (including depreciation) - both the Morgan and Atom have ruled themselves out on the usability front, the Alpine because of its gearbox and fact that the Wells just feels a bit more special (to me anyway)

[NMNeil]

samoht said:

NMNeil said:

bcr5784 said:

You'd better be quick if you really want one - it'll be 2026 at the earliest if you order now.

That's not going to help sales.

If they've pre-sold 100% of their production capacity out to 2026, arguably sales don't want or need any help.

I meant it won't help sales because starting in 2024 they will all be fitted with mandatory speed limiters for the EU market, and by then, possibly the UK market as well.

[otolith]

NMNeil said:

I meant it won't help sales because starting in 2024 they will all be fitted with mandatory speed limiters for the EU market, and by then, possibly the UK market as well.

So turn it off or ignore it.

[Andy665]

NMNeil said:

I meant it won't help sales because starting in 2024 they will all be fitted with mandatory speed limiters for the EU market, and by then, possibly the UK market as well.

They are going to be switchable and IIRC low volume manufacturers will have an exemption, as they currently have with the likes of ABS and airbags etc

[NMNeil]

otolith said:

NMNeil said:

I meant it won't help sales because starting in 2024 they will all be fitted with mandatory speed limiters for the EU market, and by then, possibly the UK market as well.

So turn it off or ignore it.

It's going to be tamper proof so you can't turn it off. Not much point in a speed limiter if it can be disabled now is there?

[Andy665]

NMNeil said:

otolith said:

NMNeil said:

I meant it won't help sales because starting in 2024 they will all be fitted with mandatory speed limiters for the EU market, and by then, possibly the UK market as well.

So turn it off or ignore it.

It's going to be tamper proof so you can't turn it off. Not much point in a speed limiter if it can be disabled now is there?

From July 2022 have been fitted with speed limiters

From July 2024 they will be required to be fitted with Intelligent Speed Assist (ISA)

They will be switchable

The UK is aligned with EU law in this so applies to the UK market

Low volume manufacturers are exempt

[NMNeil]

Andy665 said:

NMNeil said:

I meant it won't help sales because starting in 2024 they will all be fitted with mandatory speed limiters for the EU market, and by then, possibly the UK market as well.

They are going to be switchable and IIRC low volume manufacturers will have an exemption, as they currently have with the likes of ABS and airbags etc

According to the EU legislation, which the UK will probably follow, it's to be fitted to ALL new cars, vans, lorries and buses, no exceptions.
As for turning it off, it's a temporary thing.

The European Transport Safety Council (ETSC) also note that a ‘full on/off switch’ for the limiter should be included, but only to “aid public acceptance of introduction” - making it very likely that we won’t be afforded such luxuries of choice in the future.
https://www.visordown.com/news/industry/vehicles-s...

[NMNeil]

Andy665 said:

From July 2022 have been fitted with speed limiters

From July 2024 they will be required to be fitted with Intelligent Speed Assist (ISA)

They will be switchable

The UK is aligned with EU law in this so applies to the UK market

Low volume manufacturers are exempt

Please post a link because all the legislation I'm reading says it applies to all new cars, vans, lorries and buses but give no exceptions such a low volume producer.
Lots of questions will be asked if a politician is driving in his/her speed limited car and an 'exempt' sports car goes flying past.

[Andy665]

NMNeil said:

Please post a link because all the legislation I'm reading says it applies to all new cars, vans, lorries and buses but give no exceptions such a low volume producer.
Lots of questions will be asked if a politician is driving in his/her speed limited car and an 'exempt' sports car goes flying past.

Why is it so important to you?

With respect, I have neither the time nor inclination to go looking for links to provide to a total stranger

There is very often an exemption put in place for things for low volume manufacturers (think its 500 cars per anum), look at airbags, ABS - still lacking on Ariel Atoms, Caterham Sevens etc, as I initially stated I seem to recall that there was provision for exemptions to be made on ISA as well - never said it was fact, simply my recollection

Its a rather random diversion on a thread about a new low volume British sports car.

Irrespective of the actual facts, I will still be buying a Vertige, ISA fitted or not

Edited by Andy665 on Thursday 13th July 19:56

[Equus]

NMNeil said:

Andy665 said:

From July 2022 have been fitted with speed limiters...

Please post a link because all the legislation I'm reading says it applies to all new cars, vans, lorries and buses but give no exceptions such a low volume producer.

LINK to the current (2023) IVA M1 Inspection Manual, which is probably the route that Wells will use to register such small volumes of cars (applicable to: 'a vehicle of a family of types of which the total number manufactured in the world for any 12 months falling within the period of 36 months immediately before the month in which the vehicle was manufactured does not exceed 500').

Can you show us where it says you need to fit a mandatory speed limiter to IVA'd cars, 'cos I'm buggered if I can find it.

Edited by Equus on Thursday 13th July 20:55

[Andy665]

NMNeil said:

And it's not a diversion more of pointing out that sales will suffer when a car salesman is asked "How fast will it go?" and it's answered with "As fast as the speed limiter will allow"

"which can be overridden dear customer"

I'd suggest that sports car manufacturers producing far more than 25 cars per annum would be quite vocal about ISA if it could not be overridden- strangely quiet though isn't it?

It's a classic case of the EU introducing legislation that is fundamentally flawed, hence why there is a "temporary" provision for ISA to be overridden which I reckon will be in place for many years

Edited by Andy665 on Thursday 13th July 20:52

[otolith]

This is chapter and verse on ISA

https://road-safety-charter.ec.europa.eu/resources...

It’s like saying you can’t drive over white lines anymore because lane assist is also mandatory under the same package of measures.

[Andy665]

Can we please keep the thread related to the Wells Vertige and not the whys and wherefores of speed limiters and ISA - I'd rather be discussing a great little British sports car than something that does not really appear relevant on this thread

[Equus]

NMNeil said:

You are absolutely correct, but why would it be a requirement until the legislation requiring speed limiters for UK vehicles is in place?

You're asking the wrong question.

You should be asking yourself: why would the UK Government remove the IVA system of exemption from type approval when this type approval requirement is introduced, when they have not done so for any other?

IVA allows cars to be registered with literally hundreds of deviations or relaxations from Type Approval requirements. Why should this one be any different?

The clue is in the terminology: (EU)2018/858 (which is the overarching EU directive) applies to TYPE approval of road vehicles.

The IVA system of exemption applies to INDIVIDUAL approval of road vehicles.

NONE of the type approval legislation applies to 'individually approved' vehicles. Never has*, and there's no reason to believe that it ever will.




* Which is why you can still IVA a car without airbags, catalytic converters, ABS brakes, impact testing, seat belt testing, etc., etc., etc.

Edited by Equus on Friday 14th July 17:21

[Andy665]

Equus said:

You're asking the wrong question.

You should be asking yourself: why would the UK Government remove the IVA system of exemption from type approval when this type approval requirement is introduced, when they have not done so for any other?

IVA allows cars to be registered with literally hundreds of deviations or relaxations from Type Approval requirements. Why should this one be any different?

The clue is in the terminology: (EU)2018/858 (which is the overarching EU directive) applies to TYPE approval of road vehicles.

The IVA system of exemption applies to INDIVIDUAL approval of road vehicles.

NONE of the type approval legislation applies to 'individually approved' vehicles. Never has*, and there's no reason to believe that it ever will.




* Which is why you can still IVA a car without airbags, catalytic converters, ABS brakes, impact testing, seat belt testing, etc., etc., etc.

Edited by Equus on Friday 14th July 17:21

You do realise you will never win this one :-)

[Equus]

Andy665 said:

You do realise you will never win this one :-)

I guarantee that he won't be able to grasp the very basic fact that type approval legislation only applies to types of series production vehicles, and that individual approval sits outside of that system.

It will be interesting, though, to see how he explains how ABS brakes have been 'mandatory' under type approval since 2004 and catalytic converters since 1993, yet I can still register a vehicle under IVA today, in 2023, without either.

[Sway]

Equus said:

I guarantee that he won't be able to grasp the very basic fact that type approval legislation only applies to types of series production vehicles, and that individual approval sits outside of that system.

It will be interesting, though, to see how he explains how ABS brakes have been 'mandatory' under type approval since 2004 and catalytic converters since 1993, yet I can still register a vehicle under IVA today, in 2023, without either.

B-b-b-but they might want to sell one of the 50 orders covering the next couple of years to somewhere in Europe...

[GTRene]

I wonder were this LHD version went to, if its sold, but I guess for now its a demonstrator car?

[cml]

Oooh looks good in a dark colour. Revival of this thread caused me to venture to YouTube to look at it moving about. Looks sweet. A proper B-road master if it drive like it suggests it will. I miss not having power steering if you know what i mean: so much feel. Ticks lots of boxes.

Anybody actual;ly driven one and has a tale to tell?

[bcr5784]

cml said:

Oooh looks good in a dark colour. Revival of this thread caused me to venture to YouTube to look at it moving about. Looks sweet. A proper B-road master if it drive like it suggests it will. I miss not having power steering if you know what i mean: so much feel. Ticks lots of boxes.

Anybody actual;ly driven one and has a tale to tell?

It's not nearly as dark as that picture implies - it's a darkish green and (to my eyes) very nice in the plastic.

Re power steering it doesn't have it but Robin has said he could fit it. But it really doesn't need it - it's surprizingly light, much more so than an Elise. I suspect (but Robin couldn't confirm) that they have gone for less castor than is the norm. As a result (?) it doesn't have as much feel as a Caterham or Elise, but is still good.