Modifying to be illegal?
Discussion
Undercover McNoName said:
akirk said:
Fair points...
but loss of liberty as the cost of convenience is not the society I would want to live in...
"Loss of liberty", sure you don't mean the loss of right to annoy 99,9% of the population who doesn't care for your noise and pollution?but loss of liberty as the cost of convenience is not the society I would want to live in...
I have two cars with v8s - both could make use of modified exhausts etc. and sound loud - neither does, both are quiet cars with a gentle burble you can't hear inside the car let alone more than about 2 foot away...
but the RR certainly wouldn't be on the road any longer were I not allowed to modify it - it has had extensive rust removal and new panels added, all technically are modifications - but keep the car in better and safer condition...
the proposals are ill-thought through, badly worded and have pretty much zero to do with yobs and loud exhausts...
From the MCN article.
"The reasons for the proposed changes are twofold: ensuring emissions standards after manufacture and for autonomous vehicles.
Currently there is no test for a bike’s emissions once it leaves the factory, which presents a headache for schemes such as the Ultra Low Emission Zone in London, which is based entirely on which Euro rating the vehicle met at manufacture."
https://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/2021/october/b...
So it would appear that the anti tampering law would only apply to emissions systems, and the possibility that bikes will have an emissions and exhaust noise level test as part of the MOT.
"The reasons for the proposed changes are twofold: ensuring emissions standards after manufacture and for autonomous vehicles.
Currently there is no test for a bike’s emissions once it leaves the factory, which presents a headache for schemes such as the Ultra Low Emission Zone in London, which is based entirely on which Euro rating the vehicle met at manufacture."
https://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/2021/october/b...
So it would appear that the anti tampering law would only apply to emissions systems, and the possibility that bikes will have an emissions and exhaust noise level test as part of the MOT.
2gins said:
Dunno if this has been posted yet, but this looks like a very effective way of shutting off the supply of parts to keep your ICE car on the road in 10 years time, so you have to go and buy a new ... electric vehicle.
If they're keen on 'right to repair', then that is not compatible with outlawing modifications.
You cynical bugger. They’d never do anything like that to push a certain agenda….If they're keen on 'right to repair', then that is not compatible with outlawing modifications.
Digga said:
akirk said:
And we already have noise and emissions legislation which in theory stops that...
If the perpetrators of that anti-social behaviour ignore current legislation - exactly how effective do you anticipate the new legislation being?!
And these proposals are clearly not aimed at those people or that behaviour - it is aimed at legislation for a scenario where manufacturers and government have tracking systems in your car so that they know where it is / so that they can charge per mile / so that they can have black boxes presumably which will automatically give you points if you go over a set speed limit / etc. - that is the purpose, it is to remove control from the punter and give it to government / manufacturers who know better.
^This.If the perpetrators of that anti-social behaviour ignore current legislation - exactly how effective do you anticipate the new legislation being?!
And these proposals are clearly not aimed at those people or that behaviour - it is aimed at legislation for a scenario where manufacturers and government have tracking systems in your car so that they know where it is / so that they can charge per mile / so that they can have black boxes presumably which will automatically give you points if you go over a set speed limit / etc. - that is the purpose, it is to remove control from the punter and give it to government / manufacturers who know better.
Even blatant obvious stuff, like morons who tint out driver's side windows to blackout spec does not get detected or prosecuted. Who, in fact, is going to police this?
DVLA would do better to police moody MOT stations.
My TVR passes every emissions test without issue.
I could well be wrong but a brief read of the Tampering section suggests it is trying to stop the bypass of safety systems or emissions standards rather than stopping non OEM parts generally.
If a non OEM exhaust made more noise but also had more emissions or it was a defeat device when the speed limit stuff comes in then that would be banned it seems, however non OEM brakes, same emissions non OEM exhausts, Halfords catalogue or mobility alterations don’t appear to be mentioned or covered.
If a non OEM exhaust made more noise but also had more emissions or it was a defeat device when the speed limit stuff comes in then that would be banned it seems, however non OEM brakes, same emissions non OEM exhausts, Halfords catalogue or mobility alterations don’t appear to be mentioned or covered.
Edited by Dingu on Thursday 21st October 13:46
Excellent - another load of legislation for our imaginary traffic police divisions to enforce. There are no police on our roads any more. You can pass all the laws you like, there's nobody left to enforce them.
The so-called "GPF Delete" is a very common mod at the moment, and there are many thousands of cars running round right now with the GPFs removed and replaced with straight pipes that replicate the external appearance of the filter. These cars are all illegal, unroadworthy, and technically uninsured on the grounds of both of those things, yet people are freely doing it.
All these proposals will do is put a dent in an industry that pays a lot of tax and employs a lot of people. An interesting priority for any government presiding over an economy on its backside, and £2 1/4 trillion in debt...
The so-called "GPF Delete" is a very common mod at the moment, and there are many thousands of cars running round right now with the GPFs removed and replaced with straight pipes that replicate the external appearance of the filter. These cars are all illegal, unroadworthy, and technically uninsured on the grounds of both of those things, yet people are freely doing it.
All these proposals will do is put a dent in an industry that pays a lot of tax and employs a lot of people. An interesting priority for any government presiding over an economy on its backside, and £2 1/4 trillion in debt...
Court_S said:
2gins said:
Dunno if this has been posted yet, but this looks like a very effective way of shutting off the supply of parts to keep your ICE car on the road in 10 years time, so you have to go and buy a new ... electric vehicle.
If they're keen on 'right to repair', then that is not compatible with outlawing modifications.
You cynical bugger. They’d never do anything like that to push a certain agenda….If they're keen on 'right to repair', then that is not compatible with outlawing modifications.
Ever see a first gen Mondeo on the road? Or a Vectra? Anything made by SAAB?
99.99% of cars disappear off the roads after 20 years anyway.
Undercover McNoName said:
"Loss of liberty", sure you don't mean the loss of right to annoy 99,9% of the population who doesn't care for your noise and pollution?
Congratulations Undercover McNoname (or is it Alfahol Addict?). Your quest to become the forums biggest idiot is going swimmingly. Now once you realise your opinions are as relevant as a white crayon, perhaps you will do us the honour of leaving whilst the adults discuss things.
ChocolateFrog said:
Court_S said:
2gins said:
Dunno if this has been posted yet, but this looks like a very effective way of shutting off the supply of parts to keep your ICE car on the road in 10 years time, so you have to go and buy a new ... electric vehicle.
If they're keen on 'right to repair', then that is not compatible with outlawing modifications.
You cynical bugger. They’d never do anything like that to push a certain agenda….If they're keen on 'right to repair', then that is not compatible with outlawing modifications.
Ever see a first gen Mondeo on the road? Or a Vectra? Anything made by SAAB?
99.99% of cars disappear off the roads after 20 years anyway.
Dingu said:
I could well be wrong but a brief read of the Tampering section suggests it is trying to stop the bypass of safety systems or emissions standards rather than stopping non OEM parts generally.
If a non OEM exhaust made more noise but had the same emissions or it was a defeat device when the speed limit stuff comes in then that would be banned it seems, however non OEM brakes, Halfords catalogue or mobility alterations don’t appear to be mentioned or covered.
And what will be covered under 'safety'?If a non OEM exhaust made more noise but had the same emissions or it was a defeat device when the speed limit stuff comes in then that would be banned it seems, however non OEM brakes, Halfords catalogue or mobility alterations don’t appear to be mentioned or covered.
If you do the survey they also talk about security (nothing to do with safety or emissions)
This will have come about from the exercise of moving EU law into UK law - and the increasing trend towards control systems in cars (e.g. eCall etc.)
I am not sure that the government has any real interest in worrying about bob down the road changing the exhaust on his bike / car / scooter / little tikes car - they are though very interested in data / control / pricing / etc. and that is where this is aimed... it will just catch a lot of other stuff in the same legislation
Limpet said:
Excellent - another load of legislation for our imaginary traffic police divisions to enforce. There are no police on our roads any more. You can pass all the laws you like, there's nobody left to enforce them.
No requirement for anybody to enforce. It can be left to people to 'do the right thing'. Problem solved. Move on. Build Back Better.
tomic said:
MercScot said:
Jazoli said:
Are you a bit short on brain matter? this will apply to all vehicles, not just motorcycles.
Thank f
k for that, no more Saxo's with dustbin exhausts either - bring it on!Which it will need to be of it is to include the day when modified Saxos were a thing.
Just for the record, I am perfectly ok with any legislation that bans the modification of emission equipment where fitted.
I do worry that we will be prevented from making modifications that potentially improve safety, as well as performance. How many of you have binned the OEM discs and pads in favour of some far better (and in some cases cheaper) Brembo/EBC items? Or changed the absolutely terrible OEM tires for something with far more grip or with characteristics better suited to where they drive? (Yes, I'm looking at you, Triumph. I mean Pirelli Phantoms? really?).
By all means, bring in minimum standards for parts but to ban modifications outright would devastate the aftermarket parts business.
I do worry that we will be prevented from making modifications that potentially improve safety, as well as performance. How many of you have binned the OEM discs and pads in favour of some far better (and in some cases cheaper) Brembo/EBC items? Or changed the absolutely terrible OEM tires for something with far more grip or with characteristics better suited to where they drive? (Yes, I'm looking at you, Triumph. I mean Pirelli Phantoms? really?).
By all means, bring in minimum standards for parts but to ban modifications outright would devastate the aftermarket parts business.
akirk said:
And what will be covered under 'safety'?
If you do the survey they also talk about security (nothing to do with safety or emissions)
This will have come about from the exercise of moving EU law into UK law - and the increasing trend towards control systems in cars (e.g. eCall etc.)
I am not sure that the government has any real interest in worrying about bob down the road changing the exhaust on his bike / car / scooter / little tikes car - they are though very interested in data / control / pricing / etc. and that is where this is aimed... it will just catch a lot of other stuff in the same legislation
I agree totally, it’s just that a lot of the comments of opposition here are talking about non-OEM but to spec parts and other modifications like motability which wouldn’t appear to be affected - at least in this proposal. If you do the survey they also talk about security (nothing to do with safety or emissions)
This will have come about from the exercise of moving EU law into UK law - and the increasing trend towards control systems in cars (e.g. eCall etc.)
I am not sure that the government has any real interest in worrying about bob down the road changing the exhaust on his bike / car / scooter / little tikes car - they are though very interested in data / control / pricing / etc. and that is where this is aimed... it will just catch a lot of other stuff in the same legislation
If we want to oppose it, which is a very legitimate view, then I just think it’s important we are clear in the reasons for opposition in terms of what is being proposed to avoid the opinion of enthusiasts being lost in the noise and ultimately disregarded in the consultation
TarquinMX5 said:
No requirement for anybody to enforce. It can be left to people to 'do the right thing'. Problem solved.
Move on. Build Back Better.
What makes you think most of them would 'do the right thing'? Move on. Build Back Better.
There's no moral issue here (beyond a potential environmental one in the case of decat / GPF delete) and it's an entirely victimless 'crime', so it simply becomes about the likelihood of being caught and facing consequences. If that likelihood is trivial (which it will be), the rules will be ignored.
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