RE: Toyota reveals hydrogen-powered GR Yaris

RE: Toyota reveals hydrogen-powered GR Yaris

Friday 3rd December 2021

Toyota reveals hydrogen-powered GR Yaris

A great engine with almost zero emissions sounds too good to be true; Toyota thinks otherwise...



Traditional car enthusiasts are in a bind at the moment. We all know that the days of internal combustion are numbered in new cars, but we're also immensely reluctant to give up the sensory enjoyment of suck-squeeze-bang-blow. Because engines are a large part of why we all like cars. Now into that existential crisis walks Toyota - frequently the saviour of car enthusiasts in recent times - with a hydrogen powered GR Yaris.

Yes, really. Not a car that looks like the Gazoo Racing icon but uses a hydrogen fuel cell (like Toyota's own Mirai), but an adapted Yaris that keeps the 1.6-litre turbo triple - only runs on hydrogen rather than petrol. It's a powertrain evolution that Toyota is already examining in Japanese Super Taikyu with a Corolla Sport, testing its validity in the "harsh conditions of motorsport in Japan."

Though ostensibly identical, the Yaris engine has been fitted with a modified injection system and fuel supply to account for the more explosive nature of hydrogen compared to petrol. It's refuelled as a Mirai would be, and while performance details haven't been released, Toyota suggests that the faster combustion rate of hydrogen delivers "good responsiveness", so hopefully none of the GR's effervescent nature has been lost.



Even without knowing specifics, the appeal is obvious, combining the thrill of a great engine - and the Yaris's G16E-GTS 1.6 really is a thrummy gem - with the ecological benefits of hydrogen as fuel. Or, as Toyota would put it: "Hydrogen combustion engine technology delivers almost zero emissions while retaining the acoustic and sensory sensations typical for combustion engines." Toyota President Akio Toyoda has suggested the Yaris GR H2 is a "first step" towards a hydrogen-powered reality - assuming, of course, that commercialised hydrogen production catches up to where combustion engines are.

What is ready for sale, though, if a slight tangent can be excused, is the GR86. After so much anticipation, the car has made its European debut today; when it goes on sale in the spring, customers will be offered the '86 for just two years. Presumably as 2.4-litre, naturally aspirated sports cars will be even less viable come 2024. "When it's gone, it's gone", says Toyota, and if first impressions are anything to go by the GR86 should absolutely be worth rushing for.

Still, after that point, what an exciting future something like the Yaris presents. To Toyota's credit, the manufacturing giant has always pursued alternative future powertrains and fuels beyond pure BEV - however pricey and odd the Mirai has looked - a strategy that now looks to be paying dividends from an enthusiast perspective as well. Because however good an electric or plug in Yaris GR might be, a hydrogen powered one sounds pretty awesome as well - not least for those 'sensory sensations'. Testing will continue in the Corolla Sport race car as Toyota continues to promote the use of hydrogen and work towards carbon neutrality. Certainly converting a Yaris GR is one way of winning over the doubters - perhaps the future of fast cars doesn't look so bad after all.







Author
Discussion

BSSBMW

Original Poster:

543 posts

114 months

Thursday 2nd December 2021
quotequote all
I sincerely hope other manufacturers put more effort into hydrogen technology.


VanquishRider

509 posts

153 months

Thursday 2nd December 2021
quotequote all
If we could have V12 Hydrogen I'd live to hear it. Might be a great opportunity to keep some charisma in cars. But most hydrogen cars will be fuel cell only. Which means silent electric power.

kambites

67,593 posts

222 months

Thursday 2nd December 2021
quotequote all
VanquishRider said:
If we could have V12 Hydrogen I'd live to hear it.
Here you go:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_Hydrogen_7

Hydrogen in internal combustion engines is rather a "worst of all worlds" for actual transportation though.

Edited by kambites on Thursday 2nd December 20:32

Jim the Sunderer

3,239 posts

183 months

Thursday 2nd December 2021
quotequote all
I assume this is a dodge to use up some free government grant money.

GT9

6,678 posts

173 months

Thursday 2nd December 2021
quotequote all
I’m probably one of the most vocal when it comes to hydrogen as a passenger car fuel. This is because I think it is widely misrepresented as some sort of mainstream saviour.
The financial and energy balance numbers game is so far out of whack compared with the obvious alternative, by several multiples. Overlay that with the engineering, recycling and safety challenges it presents as a everyday consumer commodity, and well, I think it’s a terrible idea for mass utilisation on cars.

Conversely, I have no problem with the idea that it might have a role to play for niche/special purpose applications. I like the idea of the H2 Yaris as a concept, to show how far the hydrogen recip can be pushed. And to get a feel for how real the near zero emissions (i.e. NOx) claim is, both at the beginning and end of life of the engine.

Good luck to Toyota I say.


RobDickinson

31,343 posts

255 months

Thursday 2nd December 2021
quotequote all
Toyota, literal gaslighting.

Piston Ted

242 posts

61 months

Thursday 2nd December 2021
quotequote all
Cue a load of EV fanaticals shouting that it’s never going to happen.

kambites

67,593 posts

222 months

Thursday 2nd December 2021
quotequote all
Are hydrogen internal combustion cars ULEZ exempt?

RobDickinson

31,343 posts

255 months

Thursday 2nd December 2021
quotequote all
kambites said:
Are hydrogen internal combustion cars ULEZ exempt?
They can still produce NOx, probably at similar levels to todays petrol cars

kambites

67,593 posts

222 months

Thursday 2nd December 2021
quotequote all
RobDickinson said:
kambites said:
Are hydrogen internal combustion cars ULEZ exempt?
They can still produce NOx, probably at similar levels to todays petrol cars
I know, which is why I wondered if they were ULEZ exempt.

Augustus Windsock

3,371 posts

156 months

Thursday 2nd December 2021
quotequote all
Some people won’t be happy until they see us back using Dobbin in front of a cart…

RobDickinson

31,343 posts

255 months

Thursday 2nd December 2021
quotequote all
Augustus Windsock said:
Some people won’t be happy until they see us back using Dobbin in front of a cart…
So you're an advocate for cars that will have much higher fuel costs, dubious sourced hydrogen that likely comes from gas, still have emissions and about half the power of current petrol models?

GTRene

16,604 posts

225 months

Thursday 2nd December 2021
quotequote all
hydrogen bomb on wheels, Toyota GR kamikaze Yaris. angel

_ppan

453 posts

70 months

Thursday 2nd December 2021
quotequote all
I hope this will be equivalent in power and character and will also be very clean. I would be through the roof of humanity finds a solution so enthusiasts can keep using an ICE but then a very clean one.

However, a lot of hydrogen is produced without green energy thuis emitting a lot of CO2. And creating hydrogen only has an efficiency of 25%. Assuming efficiency in the engine won't be much higher than fossil fuels (most energy is lost in heat - I don't see why hydrogen powered would stay cold), say 20%. That's 5% efficiency. That might pose a problem as that can lead to high CO2 emissions due to the amounts of energy needed to get the car move a certain distance. 95% of the energy put into transforming energy stored in electricity to energy stored in hydrogen is not used to move the car. Not taking into account storage and transport losses and other efficiency problems. And then CO2 emissions for other logistic stuff. And from here on I think you know where I'm going...

I hope they will prove me wrong so I can drive a K20 Lotus if there ever comes a time when I could afford it.

Edited by _ppan on Thursday 2nd December 22:21

85Carrera

3,503 posts

238 months

Thursday 2nd December 2021
quotequote all
Jim the Sunderer said:
I assume this is a dodge to use up some free government grant money.
Only applies to EVs, which have sold in the numbers they have over here because they’ve been subsidised by the taxpayer.

RobDickinson

31,343 posts

255 months

Thursday 2nd December 2021
quotequote all
85Carrera said:
Only applies to EVs, which have sold in the numbers they have over here because they’ve been subsidised by the taxpayer.
No, theres quite a nice of gov grant money for doing hydrogen vehicle research and development.

romac

598 posts

147 months

Thursday 2nd December 2021
quotequote all
kambites said:
RobDickinson said:
kambites said:
Are hydrogen internal combustion cars ULEZ exempt?
They can still produce NOx, probably at similar levels to todays petrol cars
I know, which is why I wondered if they were ULEZ exempt.
The range of ULEZ-exempt cars is pretty wide. For example: a 2003 K-series Elise is exempt. So I think this would be, too. As most will know, JCB are working on this concept too. At very lean mixtures, the combustion temperature is lower, which reduces the NOx. And of course, there is no Carbon or particulate coming from the tailpipe.

Fastdruid

8,651 posts

153 months

Thursday 2nd December 2021
quotequote all
The main issue with hydrogen is the storage, the energy density is crap.

Now sure, on paper Hydrogen gives three times the energy content of petrol per Kg but that's reversed when you consider the volume, with hydrogen giving roughly a 1/4 of the energy of petrol for the same volume (and petrol is about 100 times the energy density of a lithium ion battery!)

In the batteries favour however, ICE is pretty crap at turning that theoretical energy into usable energy while a battery is pretty damn good.

Now I'm not sure about the Yaris but when Mazda made a hydrogen powered RX-8 the already terrible range was slashed to 62 mi out of a 110 litre tank (which took up pretty much all of the boot) and power roughly halved to 107hp on hydrogen vs 206hp from running on petrol. In comparison even at a fairly terrible 15mpg you could get 214Mi out of the 65l petrol tank on it (and driving sensibly on the motorway might see as high as 350Mi or so).

I'd really hope the Yaris is better but I'll not be holding my breath.

Matt_T

398 posts

75 months

Thursday 2nd December 2021
quotequote all
romac said:
kambites said:
RobDickinson said:
kambites said:
Are hydrogen internal combustion cars ULEZ exempt?
They can still produce NOx, probably at similar levels to todays petrol cars
I know, which is why I wondered if they were ULEZ exempt.
The range of ULEZ-exempt cars is pretty wide. For example: a 2003 K-series Elise is exempt. So I think this would be, too. As most will know, JCB are working on this concept too. At very lean mixtures, the combustion temperature is lower, which reduces the NOx. And of course, there is no Carbon or particulate coming from the tailpipe.
I know... my Civic Type-S track day car (160 bhp) is LEZ and ULEZ exempt which is why we take it into Central London to visit my mum, leaving the family car at home! Makes no sense...

BVB

1,104 posts

154 months

Thursday 2nd December 2021
quotequote all
The internal combustion engine is not going to disappear, just petrol and diesel engines will. Hyfrogen powered combustion engineas are the future. Electric vehicles are merely a gimmicky stopgap. UK infrastructure could not support charging many electric vehicles for starters.