Motorway aquaplaning - an avoidable accident?
Discussion
Apologies if the gist of what I'm about to say has been said already. I read the first two pages of posts and felt like the general consensus was that aquaplaning was an entirely avoidable scenario - it just means going slower than the speed needed to separate rubber from tarmac. All of which is almost impossible to disagree with. I have seen stationary cars aquaplane, but it's caused by masses and masses of water unsticking the car and and sweeping it away. In which case we don't call it aquaplaning.
But nowhere in those first two pages did I see it mentioned that PHers like us are not typical drivers. The very fact that we're spending our own free time (or our employer's - naughty!) on an internet forum talking about aquaplaning, tells me that we are the sort of people who spend more time thinking about aquaplaning and its causes. In fact, I'd bet there is a significant proportion of driving licence holders in the UK who wouldn't know what aquaplaning was if they heard it mentioned, and even if you described it, would look at you blankly. And there will be another sizeable proportion who will have heard of it and maybe have an idea of what the term describes, but they wouldn't have ever experienced it or if they have, they didn't know what was happening.
I don't know whether things have changed since I passed my driving test in 1991, but there was certainly no actual practical training when it comes to aquaplaning. There may have been a mention of it by my driving instructor, and I'm sure it's mentioned in the highway code. But it was some time after passing my test that I drove too fast through a puddle of water on the road, lost any steering or braking authority, came out the other side, and had that "aha!" moment. In fact it was several years before I started pushing the envelope of my car's capabilities, deliberately trying to induce understeer, oversteer, finding empty car parks when it had snowed so that I could learn slow speed drifting, learning opposite lock which until then I'd only experienced in a go kart. And when it was safe, I tried driving through a flooded car park at ever increasing speeds so that I could learn exactly how the car reacts when it aquaplanes and whether there is any way to control it. My ability to react in various situations has become much improved over time and with practice. Which doesn't mean I don't have lots of learning to do. Last year I tried high speed drifting (or skidding as Chris Harris calls it) for the first time on an airfield circuit, and I got it wrong a lot more than I got it right. But I'm going to keep doing it until I can do it consistently well.
But most drivers don't do these things. They get in the car, they put it in gear, and they go to wherever they need to be. They are thinking about calling the plumber, and what to have for Sunday lunch. Or they're worrying about whether the project they are working on is going to be finished by the deadline. They certainly aren't thinking about tyre adhesion in wet conditions, and you can hardly blame them. The only thing that's been drummed into them is that speed kills, and that they mustn't break the speed limit. But I'd say that driver training should be better in the first instance and incorporate some low friction driving experience, and it should also be something that people keep up with over the course of their driving career. I'd quite like to see an advanced driving licence which you could only get through additional training and testing, without which you would not be able to drive cars over a certain power-to-weight ratio. That wouldn't directly address aquaplaning, but it would encourage drivers of all ages to undertake additional training.
The other night I was out in my Boxster in wet (but not torrential) conditions, and there was a large 4x4 SUV behind me clearly wanting to go much faster. As soon as he was able, he shot past me and proceeded to go halfway round the upcoming roundabout in to take the M25 southbound at J13. But his speed was far too fast for the wet conditions. If I had tried to match him in my Boxster, I can guarantee that the result would have been flashing blue lights and twisted metal. Yes, he had all wheel drive on his side, as well as more weight, and he likely didn't have his rear tyres worn close to the legal limit. But I'd guess he also had less experience of what can go wrong when it's wet - he was absolutely asking for trouble.
Yes, aquaplaning is nearly always avoidable, but it's much more avoidable if you have the skills and experience to know when it's likely to happen, and how to prevent it. And it also helps to know what to do about it when it does happen.
But nowhere in those first two pages did I see it mentioned that PHers like us are not typical drivers. The very fact that we're spending our own free time (or our employer's - naughty!) on an internet forum talking about aquaplaning, tells me that we are the sort of people who spend more time thinking about aquaplaning and its causes. In fact, I'd bet there is a significant proportion of driving licence holders in the UK who wouldn't know what aquaplaning was if they heard it mentioned, and even if you described it, would look at you blankly. And there will be another sizeable proportion who will have heard of it and maybe have an idea of what the term describes, but they wouldn't have ever experienced it or if they have, they didn't know what was happening.
I don't know whether things have changed since I passed my driving test in 1991, but there was certainly no actual practical training when it comes to aquaplaning. There may have been a mention of it by my driving instructor, and I'm sure it's mentioned in the highway code. But it was some time after passing my test that I drove too fast through a puddle of water on the road, lost any steering or braking authority, came out the other side, and had that "aha!" moment. In fact it was several years before I started pushing the envelope of my car's capabilities, deliberately trying to induce understeer, oversteer, finding empty car parks when it had snowed so that I could learn slow speed drifting, learning opposite lock which until then I'd only experienced in a go kart. And when it was safe, I tried driving through a flooded car park at ever increasing speeds so that I could learn exactly how the car reacts when it aquaplanes and whether there is any way to control it. My ability to react in various situations has become much improved over time and with practice. Which doesn't mean I don't have lots of learning to do. Last year I tried high speed drifting (or skidding as Chris Harris calls it) for the first time on an airfield circuit, and I got it wrong a lot more than I got it right. But I'm going to keep doing it until I can do it consistently well.
But most drivers don't do these things. They get in the car, they put it in gear, and they go to wherever they need to be. They are thinking about calling the plumber, and what to have for Sunday lunch. Or they're worrying about whether the project they are working on is going to be finished by the deadline. They certainly aren't thinking about tyre adhesion in wet conditions, and you can hardly blame them. The only thing that's been drummed into them is that speed kills, and that they mustn't break the speed limit. But I'd say that driver training should be better in the first instance and incorporate some low friction driving experience, and it should also be something that people keep up with over the course of their driving career. I'd quite like to see an advanced driving licence which you could only get through additional training and testing, without which you would not be able to drive cars over a certain power-to-weight ratio. That wouldn't directly address aquaplaning, but it would encourage drivers of all ages to undertake additional training.
The other night I was out in my Boxster in wet (but not torrential) conditions, and there was a large 4x4 SUV behind me clearly wanting to go much faster. As soon as he was able, he shot past me and proceeded to go halfway round the upcoming roundabout in to take the M25 southbound at J13. But his speed was far too fast for the wet conditions. If I had tried to match him in my Boxster, I can guarantee that the result would have been flashing blue lights and twisted metal. Yes, he had all wheel drive on his side, as well as more weight, and he likely didn't have his rear tyres worn close to the legal limit. But I'd guess he also had less experience of what can go wrong when it's wet - he was absolutely asking for trouble.
Yes, aquaplaning is nearly always avoidable, but it's much more avoidable if you have the skills and experience to know when it's likely to happen, and how to prevent it. And it also helps to know what to do about it when it does happen.
Some of the above responses feel to be going over the same ground again, so by way of a summary, here's what I personally think I've learned from our discussions:
- All aquaplaning incidents are avoidable by driving more slowly
- It's entirely possible to experience aquaplaning within the speed limit
- In most cases there is sufficient warning of a risk of standing water for the prudent driver to reduce speed sufficiently, but not always
- In the worst conditions it may be best to pull off a motorway and wait for the rain to relent
- Tyre choice and tread depth are significant factors
- Vehicle-specific factors such as weight, weight distribution and tyre width also affect the critical speed for aquaplaning
- Therefore just because the cars in front pass through an area of standing water safely, does not mean that you will
- Specifically, performance cars with light weight and wide tyres, which have superior roadholding in the dry, are at greater risk of losing control through aquaplaning in the wet.
- The best response to aquaplaning is to keep the controls neutral until grip returns, otherwise you increase the chance of losing control when some or all tyres abruptly regain grip
LunarOne said:
Yes, aquaplaning is nearly always avoidable, but it's much more avoidable if you have the skills and experience to know when it's likely to happen, and how to prevent it. And it also helps to know what to do about it when it does happen.
However, given how one handles aquaplaning do you not think that the average driver who has no understanding of it is already perfectly equipped to deal with it should it happen? By all accounts, on this thread there is a clear suggestion to me that people who like cars and know a bit about them have a clear tendency to crash due to lift off oversteer as a reaction to what was possibly a relatively benign aquaplaning event. I also suspect that many PHers would still be driving too fast for the conditions due to complete over confidence. It isn't exactly uncommon to see a PH sticker on a car being driven in a moronic manner 
Also, re Boxster v Macan on a sodden roundabout, it's about as different a game as you can get. One has nothing forcing the front wheels into the tarmac at that point and possibly is even lifting under throttle whereas the other has a shallowing diesel boat anchor sitting over the front wheels, wouldn't really be lifting under throttle and has an AWD computer system hacking away.
As for J13, I'm envious of anyone who can get close to aqua plane or understeer risk there given that it seems to be in perpetual gridlock most of the time these days.
Lexington59 said:
“Believing my rubbish?”
What part of my suggestion to drive to the conditions is so contentious for you, apart from perhaps you obviously not doing so?
What part of my suggestion to drive to the conditions is so contentious for you, apart from perhaps you obviously not doing so?
Lexington59 earlier which I think is Rubbish said:
With reasonable tread in my view you’d have to be going quite fast (>70?) to have problems.
This doesnt say drive to the conditions. It says you need to drive quite fast to have problems if you have reasonable tread.I am trying to get readers here to understand that you can get into trouble at less than 70 with reasonable tyres. So the exact opposite of what you are saying.
Therefore I will use words like rubbish, pants, stupid, nonsense etc because I want people to get the message. I think you are wrong. Is this clear.
We cant all have new tyres all the time. We can get caught by surprise in a sudden down pour. We wont know our tread depth at this point. What we need to know is that speed is the only variable we can control at that moment.
Personally I dont believe pulling over onto the hard shoulder is a good idea - it is illegal for a start - and someone else spinning into you would be very bad.
Just drive painfully slow.
This message can not be simpler.
Dont get over confident thinking you have good tread or it wont happen to you.
Good thread this.
I want to add to what I said earlier on in this discussion where I had an incident on a wet M23 but got away with it…..At the time I had well used Pilot Sport 4’s with around 3.5 mm left on them.
I recently changed them to Eagle Supersports & 2 weeks ago found myself on a sopping wet M23 again. I subjectively felt safer with fresh tread but objectively and through experience, felt I was treading on eggshells. I slowed to 55’ish & suffered the spray in lane 1 whilst many vans/cars hammered past in the gloom.
Another option as others on here have said would be to pull off for a while. I’m definitely going to bank that one for the future.
I want to add to what I said earlier on in this discussion where I had an incident on a wet M23 but got away with it…..At the time I had well used Pilot Sport 4’s with around 3.5 mm left on them.
I recently changed them to Eagle Supersports & 2 weeks ago found myself on a sopping wet M23 again. I subjectively felt safer with fresh tread but objectively and through experience, felt I was treading on eggshells. I slowed to 55’ish & suffered the spray in lane 1 whilst many vans/cars hammered past in the gloom.
Another option as others on here have said would be to pull off for a while. I’m definitely going to bank that one for the future.
Portofino said:
Good thread this.
I want to add to what I said earlier on in this discussion where I had an incident on a wet M23 but got away with it…..At the time I had well used Pilot Sport 4’s with around 3.5 mm left on them.
I recently changed them to Eagle Supersports & 2 weeks ago found myself on a sopping wet M23 again. I subjectively felt safer with fresh tread but objectively and through experience, felt I was treading on eggshells. I slowed to 55’ish & suffered the spray in lane 1 whilst many vans/cars hammered past in the gloom.
Another option as others on here have said would be to pull off for a while. I’m definitely going to bank that one for the future.
I wouldn't advocate taking a hand off the wheel during such a situation, to be honest. I want to add to what I said earlier on in this discussion where I had an incident on a wet M23 but got away with it…..At the time I had well used Pilot Sport 4’s with around 3.5 mm left on them.
I recently changed them to Eagle Supersports & 2 weeks ago found myself on a sopping wet M23 again. I subjectively felt safer with fresh tread but objectively and through experience, felt I was treading on eggshells. I slowed to 55’ish & suffered the spray in lane 1 whilst many vans/cars hammered past in the gloom.
Another option as others on here have said would be to pull off for a while. I’m definitely going to bank that one for the future.
ATM said:
Lexington59 said:
“Believing my rubbish?”
What part of my suggestion to drive to the conditions is so contentious for you, apart from perhaps you obviously not doing so?
What part of my suggestion to drive to the conditions is so contentious for you, apart from perhaps you obviously not doing so?
Lexington59 earlier which I think is Rubbish said:
With reasonable tread in my view you’d have to be going quite fast (>70?) to have problems.
This doesnt say drive to the conditions. It says you need to drive quite fast to have problems if you have reasonable tread.I am trying to get readers here to understand that you can get into trouble at less than 70 with reasonable tyres. So the exact opposite of what you are saying.
Therefore I will use words like rubbish, pants, stupid, nonsense etc because I want people to get the message. I think you are wrong. Is this clear.
We cant all have new tyres all the time. We can get caught by surprise in a sudden down pour. We wont know our tread depth at this point. What we need to know is that speed is the only variable we can control at that moment.
Personally I dont believe pulling over onto the hard shoulder is a good idea - it is illegal for a start - and someone else spinning into you would be very bad.
Just drive painfully slow.
This message can not be simpler.
Dont get over confident thinking you have good tread or it wont happen to you.
These cars are not inherently unsafe and don’t just spin out for no reason.
What I am saying is a bit of additional training on a skid pan say could be a good idea, cars can lose traction for a variety of reasons and the novice driver may panic and end up in the barrier. Building some confidence to handle these situations may help you to avoid another mishap.
Cold said:
You missed off the important one. Don't be driving a Porsche when it rains. They appear to be absolutely useless in the wet. 
Not at all. Like a lot of people I've daily driven one for years and obviously that includes plenty of heavy rain being the UK. I probably wouldn't want to do that on Cup2's (although you definitely could) but with PS4S tyres they are great in the wet.DonkeyApple said:
Portofino said:
Good thread this.
I want to add to what I said earlier on in this discussion where I had an incident on a wet M23 but got away with it…..At the time I had well used Pilot Sport 4’s with around 3.5 mm left on them.
I recently changed them to Eagle Supersports & 2 weeks ago found myself on a sopping wet M23 again. I subjectively felt safer with fresh tread but objectively and through experience, felt I was treading on eggshells. I slowed to 55’ish & suffered the spray in lane 1 whilst many vans/cars hammered past in the gloom.
Another option as others on here have said would be to pull off for a while. I’m definitely going to bank that one for the future.
I wouldn't advocate taking a hand off the wheel during such a situation, to be honest. I want to add to what I said earlier on in this discussion where I had an incident on a wet M23 but got away with it…..At the time I had well used Pilot Sport 4’s with around 3.5 mm left on them.
I recently changed them to Eagle Supersports & 2 weeks ago found myself on a sopping wet M23 again. I subjectively felt safer with fresh tread but objectively and through experience, felt I was treading on eggshells. I slowed to 55’ish & suffered the spray in lane 1 whilst many vans/cars hammered past in the gloom.
Another option as others on here have said would be to pull off for a while. I’m definitely going to bank that one for the future.
LunarOne said:
But it was some time after passing my test that I drove too fast through a puddle of water on the road, lost any steering or braking authority, came out the other side, and had that "aha!" moment. In fact it was several years before I started pushing the envelope of my car's capabilities, deliberately trying to induce understeer, oversteer, finding empty car parks when it had snowed so that I could learn slow speed drifting, learning opposite lock which until then I'd only experienced in a go kart. And when it was safe, I tried driving through a flooded car park at ever increasing speeds so that I could learn exactly how the car reacts when it aquaplanes and whether there is any way to control it. My ability to react in various situations has become much improved over time and with practice. Which doesn't mean I don't have lots of learning to do. Last year I tried high speed drifting (or skidding as Chris Harris calls it) for the first time on an airfield circuit, and I got it wrong a lot more than I got it right. But I'm going to keep doing it until I can do it consistently well.
Several years?!?! 
I agree that the people who are interested enough to seek out opportunities to find out what happens at/beyond "the limits" in a vehicle (not necessarily entirely for road safety reasons, to be fair....) and how to catch/recover it will often have a much better understanding of vehicle dynamics and behaviour in adverse conditions than the vast majority of Joe/Jo Public -who are mostly just about capable of driving about in good conditions.
There is something to be said for driving a shed in your early (and later, to be honest) years of driving (not an expensive, immaculate car with big alloy wheels and ultra low profile tyres) that can take a knock and not cause you too much anguish.
Edited by MC Bodge on Thursday 13th January 10:26
DuncanM said:
DonkeyApple said:
Portofino said:
Good thread this.
I want to add to what I said earlier on in this discussion where I had an incident on a wet M23 but got away with it…..At the time I had well used Pilot Sport 4’s with around 3.5 mm left on them.
I recently changed them to Eagle Supersports & 2 weeks ago found myself on a sopping wet M23 again. I subjectively felt safer with fresh tread but objectively and through experience, felt I was treading on eggshells. I slowed to 55’ish & suffered the spray in lane 1 whilst many vans/cars hammered past in the gloom.
Another option as others on here have said would be to pull off for a while. I’m definitely going to bank that one for the future.
I wouldn't advocate taking a hand off the wheel during such a situation, to be honest. I want to add to what I said earlier on in this discussion where I had an incident on a wet M23 but got away with it…..At the time I had well used Pilot Sport 4’s with around 3.5 mm left on them.
I recently changed them to Eagle Supersports & 2 weeks ago found myself on a sopping wet M23 again. I subjectively felt safer with fresh tread but objectively and through experience, felt I was treading on eggshells. I slowed to 55’ish & suffered the spray in lane 1 whilst many vans/cars hammered past in the gloom.
Another option as others on here have said would be to pull off for a while. I’m definitely going to bank that one for the future.
DuncanM said:
DonkeyApple said:
Portofino said:
Good thread this.
I want to add to what I said earlier on in this discussion where I had an incident on a wet M23 but got away with it…..At the time I had well used Pilot Sport 4’s with around 3.5 mm left on them.
I recently changed them to Eagle Supersports & 2 weeks ago found myself on a sopping wet M23 again. I subjectively felt safer with fresh tread but objectively and through experience, felt I was treading on eggshells. I slowed to 55’ish & suffered the spray in lane 1 whilst many vans/cars hammered past in the gloom.
Another option as others on here have said would be to pull off for a while. I’m definitely going to bank that one for the future.
I wouldn't advocate taking a hand off the wheel during such a situation, to be honest. I want to add to what I said earlier on in this discussion where I had an incident on a wet M23 but got away with it…..At the time I had well used Pilot Sport 4’s with around 3.5 mm left on them.
I recently changed them to Eagle Supersports & 2 weeks ago found myself on a sopping wet M23 again. I subjectively felt safer with fresh tread but objectively and through experience, felt I was treading on eggshells. I slowed to 55’ish & suffered the spray in lane 1 whilst many vans/cars hammered past in the gloom.
Another option as others on here have said would be to pull off for a while. I’m definitely going to bank that one for the future.
(Can’t think of a funny way of combining the two.)
Lexington59 said:
What I am saying is a bit of additional training on a skid pan say could be a good idea, cars can lose traction for a variety of reasons and the novice driver may panic and end up in the barrier. Building some confidence to handle these situations may help you to avoid another mishap.
Passive-aggressive additional training not required here 
trails said:
Lexington59 said:
What I am saying is a bit of additional training on a skid pan say could be a good idea, cars can lose traction for a variety of reasons and the novice driver may panic and end up in the barrier. Building some confidence to handle these situations may help you to avoid another mishap.
Passive-aggressive additional training not required here The dude has trashed two Boxsters. Some may say that's unlucky but I'm not sure he has much to lose from a bit of tuition on car control...
Lexington59 said:
You seem to have omitted the first part of my quote which clearly references conditions. Anyway, do you have any dashcam footage of your “accident”? I’d wager you were going a lot faster than 70. Surely after trashing one Boxster you’d learn to slow down?
These cars are not inherently unsafe and don’t just spin out for no reason.
What I am saying is a bit of additional training on a skid pan say could be a good idea, cars can lose traction for a variety of reasons and the novice driver may panic and end up in the barrier. Building some confidence to handle these situations may help you to avoid another mishap.
I had a girlfriend like you. She always wanted to expand an argument towards other subjects in a hope to prove some other point. These cars are not inherently unsafe and don’t just spin out for no reason.
What I am saying is a bit of additional training on a skid pan say could be a good idea, cars can lose traction for a variety of reasons and the novice driver may panic and end up in the barrier. Building some confidence to handle these situations may help you to avoid another mishap.
You still want to believe I was going a lot faster than 70 because these things just cant happen if you are gong less than 70. Dog with a Bone. Perhaps if I trash another Boxster at 75 with dashcam footage you will be happy. Or do you need me to measure the tread depth too. What about the depth of water on the motorway.
At this point I give up. Lexington59 knows more than Me. He knows how everyone should drive. He has never trashed or binned or crashed a Boxster as a result of Aquaplaning and therefore this proves he knows best.
Lexington59 said:
Passive aggressive?
The dude has trashed two Boxsters. Some may say that's unlucky but I'm not sure he has much to lose from a bit of tuition on car control...
I'm out. There's so much sThe dude has trashed two Boxsters. Some may say that's unlucky but I'm not sure he has much to lose from a bit of tuition on car control...
t being expressed by people who clearly don't really understand the issues. There's f
k all car control you can exercise if you're aquaplaning - you just need to drive appropriately to the conditions. Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff