Motorway aquaplaning - an avoidable accident?
Discussion
donkmeister said:
The catch-all is to assume the drainage has always failed when it rains, and that there is always black ice when it's cold, so do 30-40mph whenever it rains and 10mph when it's cold. But that would be silly.
sure, but I'd wager that the vast majority of incidents are caused by ego and bad judgement. sports cars drivers often overestimate their ability and the tyres will often be less appropriate to the conditions, often by a considerable margin."bad luck" will account for 10% of aquaplaning crashes I suspect.
guilty myself, but I'm a lot wiser now!
kambites said:
Indeed. Which is why your speed should reflect the worst that conditions are realistically going to change to in the time in which you can react. Aquaplaning is the classic example of this; if you're not pretty damned sure the road isn't flooded in front of you, you have to assume that it is.
Obviously there are situations where this isn't realistic (black ice, oil spills, etc.) but aquaplaning really isn't one of them.
Agree again.Obviously there are situations where this isn't realistic (black ice, oil spills, etc.) but aquaplaning really isn't one of them.
We all know you should be able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear. But how many of us barrel around at night assuming that the motorway is probably clear beyond our dipped headlights?*
If you hit a stationary hazard, whether that's a puddle, pothole, branch etc, then that's on you. At least the likelihood of a puddle is easier to predict.
*It isn't just me is it??
vikingaero said:
Three instances from me:
(1) Driving along the M25 near J6 at 55mph, a speed where my tyres where occasionally being overwhelmed by the rain/water. Got overtaken by a Sprinter travelling at 85-90mph. About 2 junctions on I encountered him stuffed into a barrier. He was dazed, and I helped him out of the van to a safe place behind the barrier. He then blamed the Sprinter for losing grip.
(2) Driving home from Scotland in the new Shed in Storm Katie and the fastest I went was 55mph - most of the time I was travelling at 40mph.
(3) Gym Dad arrives in a hire car one evening. Explains that he was in Lane 3 and the car spun. Obviously not his fault as there was "too much water on the road."
In (2) I'm in full control of my right foot. What the hell do (1) & (3) think they are doing? What happens when it snows and they can't do 90mph in Lane 3?
For most drivers, you get that horrible sound in the wheel arches when the tread is overwhelmed and you back off. There's part of me that thinks that drivers in premium cars, with premium tyres think they should perform "premiumly" in all situations. And lease car bashing alert: Most lease companies won't change tyres until they hit the 1.6mm limit. I routinely bin mine at 2-3mm. Could it be non-maintenance leases on Wan King ditchfinders making up a significant %?
(1) Driving along the M25 near J6 at 55mph, a speed where my tyres where occasionally being overwhelmed by the rain/water. Got overtaken by a Sprinter travelling at 85-90mph. About 2 junctions on I encountered him stuffed into a barrier. He was dazed, and I helped him out of the van to a safe place behind the barrier. He then blamed the Sprinter for losing grip.
(2) Driving home from Scotland in the new Shed in Storm Katie and the fastest I went was 55mph - most of the time I was travelling at 40mph.
(3) Gym Dad arrives in a hire car one evening. Explains that he was in Lane 3 and the car spun. Obviously not his fault as there was "too much water on the road."
In (2) I'm in full control of my right foot. What the hell do (1) & (3) think they are doing? What happens when it snows and they can't do 90mph in Lane 3?
For most drivers, you get that horrible sound in the wheel arches when the tread is overwhelmed and you back off. There's part of me that thinks that drivers in premium cars, with premium tyres think they should perform "premiumly" in all situations. And lease car bashing alert: Most lease companies won't change tyres until they hit the 1.6mm limit. I routinely bin mine at 2-3mm. Could it be non-maintenance leases on Wan King ditchfinders making up a significant %?
I didn't want my comments to be specifically about aquaplaning on the original thread, more to be about taking responsibility for your driving, particularly if you have had two crashes, of the exact same nature. I saw no comments from the OP acknowledging this, only a mention of using skinnier tyres to negate aquaplaning.
The original post has taken a bizarre twist, I'm still the only one who's commented about looking at your driving (to the OP), and according Slippydiff, everything I've said is pretty much wrong - to the point that I won't continue commenting on it. The CSR is bloody lovely though, and I wish the OP all the best.
My uncle lost control on black ice, and ended up in a ditch. Not his fault he said, 100% unavoidable. Would have happened to me, or anyone. So I asked him, when he went into the ditch, how many cars were already in there that he landed on top of, and how many cars landed on top of him afterwards? Strangely, the answer was none!!!
kambites said:
Yup. I'm sure the people doing 60 past me in 1.5 tonne family cars had more aquaplaning resistance than I did in my Elise, despite the fact I was going 20mph slower.
I floated down the inside lane of a duel carriageway in the elise for what felt like about 3 miles (probably less than 50m). The normal traffic to my right travelling 20mins faster appeared not to notice. The Elise I used to have would be awful in the rain. on the motorway I'd pootling along at 58mph in the rain just so I wouldn't get overtaken by lorries.
Whenever I did have to overtake anything the spray would be ridiculously blinding to its pathetic single windscreen wiper.
I now daily in a citroen cactus, up to 72k miles now and the rear tyres are the same as they left the factory... Recent storm conditions have made driving interesting to say the least.
Whenever I did have to overtake anything the spray would be ridiculously blinding to its pathetic single windscreen wiper.
I now daily in a citroen cactus, up to 72k miles now and the rear tyres are the same as they left the factory... Recent storm conditions have made driving interesting to say the least.
Perhaps it's worse in mid-engined cars?
Worst I've experienced was where I was driving an RX8 with Federal 595's semi slicks on the M25, the heavens opened and it was aquaplaning below 50mph but I had to go faster due to the amount of lorry's behind being aggrieved.
I found if I was gentle on the steering inputs then I could keep it under control even though the car felt like it was on ice, I doubt this would be possible in a normal car with extra weight distribution past the axles due to the yawing effect.
Worst I've experienced was where I was driving an RX8 with Federal 595's semi slicks on the M25, the heavens opened and it was aquaplaning below 50mph but I had to go faster due to the amount of lorry's behind being aggrieved.
I found if I was gentle on the steering inputs then I could keep it under control even though the car felt like it was on ice, I doubt this would be possible in a normal car with extra weight distribution past the axles due to the yawing effect.
CABC said:
donkmeister said:
The catch-all is to assume the drainage has always failed when it rains, and that there is always black ice when it's cold, so do 30-40mph whenever it rains and 10mph when it's cold. But that would be silly.
sure, but I'd wager that the vast majority of incidents are caused by ego and bad judgement. sports cars drivers often overestimate their ability and the tyres will often be less appropriate to the conditions, often by a considerable margin."bad luck" will account for 10% of aquaplaning crashes I suspect.
guilty myself, but I'm a lot wiser now!
Driving home on the completely unsalted, unploughed A1, anything over 25-30mph resulted in the rear-end wanting to overtake the front. Eminently catchable but a silly game to play just to do a few more mph so I kept to a speed where I wasn't having to countersteer. Obviously I was unpopular with the FWD crowd who wanted to go 5-10mph faster and were tailgating me in L1 instead of venturing into the virgin snow of L2 to overtake me, but I got home safely.
It drove home just how a low moment of polar inertia (mid-engine and short wheelbase) can work against you when grip is in short supply. Suspect Porsche driver didn't learn his lesson the first time!
untakenname said:
Perhaps it's worse in mid-engined cars?
Worst I've experienced was where I was driving an RX8 with Federal 595's semi slicks on the M25, the heavens opened and it was aquaplaning below 50mph but I had to go faster due to the amount of lorry's behind being aggrieved.
I found if I was gentle on the steering inputs then I could keep it under control even though the car felt like it was on ice, I doubt this would be possible in a normal car with extra weight distribution past the axles due to the yawing effect.
Just let the lorries overtake rather than driving at an unsafe speed?Worst I've experienced was where I was driving an RX8 with Federal 595's semi slicks on the M25, the heavens opened and it was aquaplaning below 50mph but I had to go faster due to the amount of lorry's behind being aggrieved.
I found if I was gentle on the steering inputs then I could keep it under control even though the car felt like it was on ice, I doubt this would be possible in a normal car with extra weight distribution past the axles due to the yawing effect.
I drove my 2003 RS6 to Liverpool a few weeks ago in very heavy rain. I was doing a steady 50mph on the M74 and still managed to aquaplane twice, so I have some sympathy with the OP on the other thread. My tyres are getting close to being replaced so that was a contributing factor, but fat tyres and heavy surface water is not something I enjoy and I am very aware that losing control is easily done with too much speed.
All incidents of aquaplaning could be avoided by driving more slowly.
Many (most?) aquaplaning incidents could reasonably be avoided by driving more slowly.
However, it's not IMHO reasonable or safer to be doing 35mph on a motorway any time it's wet, or emergency braking if you see what might look like standing water ahead, so there's always a remaining risk that you might encounter an unexpected puddle that is deeper than the critical depth for your vehicle tyres at the speed you're doing, and aquaplane.
Therefore personally if someone reports aquaplaning, I don't necessarily assume that they were driving poorly or even that they could necessarily reasonably have avoided it. It's certainly a possibility that they were driving inadvisably, but IMO not definite.
Many (most?) aquaplaning incidents could reasonably be avoided by driving more slowly.
However, it's not IMHO reasonable or safer to be doing 35mph on a motorway any time it's wet, or emergency braking if you see what might look like standing water ahead, so there's always a remaining risk that you might encounter an unexpected puddle that is deeper than the critical depth for your vehicle tyres at the speed you're doing, and aquaplane.
Therefore personally if someone reports aquaplaning, I don't necessarily assume that they were driving poorly or even that they could necessarily reasonably have avoided it. It's certainly a possibility that they were driving inadvisably, but IMO not definite.
I had an aquaplaning moment a couple of weeks ago in the work VW caddy van, skinny tyres, low power and 50mph weren’t enough to prevent it when I hit deeper water on the dual carriageway.
The weather was pretty bad, road was soaked and I didn’t even see the deeper bit until I was in it. Thankfully the van went reasonably straight and I had room to correct once I got steering back!
I do think anyone can be caught out given the right circumstances, I was driving to what I thought was a safe speed in horrible conditions and had driven 35 of the 40 miles back to the office. One blocked drain was enough for me to have a close call.
The weather was pretty bad, road was soaked and I didn’t even see the deeper bit until I was in it. Thankfully the van went reasonably straight and I had room to correct once I got steering back!
I do think anyone can be caught out given the right circumstances, I was driving to what I thought was a safe speed in horrible conditions and had driven 35 of the 40 miles back to the office. One blocked drain was enough for me to have a close call.
I aquaplaned once; coming down the M74 in March 2019, the day I'd gone up there and collected my previous Jap import E39 touring
The rain was absolutely dropping; it was the first storm of that year IIRC and I was doing around 50mph, foot off accelerator, going downhill following a HGV that was a good hundred yards or so ahead of me, and my car just let go. Steering went horribly light & I felt like I was gliding across the lanes
5mins before that, a brand new Porsche had passed me, doing a speed way too fast for the conditions; at the bottom of the hill on the M74, he was facing uphill with both bumpers hanging off...
If I wasn't still papping myself I'd have slowed down, applauded, gloated and driven off, but I didn't as I was still pulling my fingers out of the steering wheel...
Never again have I experienced that and nor do I want to
The rain was absolutely dropping; it was the first storm of that year IIRC and I was doing around 50mph, foot off accelerator, going downhill following a HGV that was a good hundred yards or so ahead of me, and my car just let go. Steering went horribly light & I felt like I was gliding across the lanes
5mins before that, a brand new Porsche had passed me, doing a speed way too fast for the conditions; at the bottom of the hill on the M74, he was facing uphill with both bumpers hanging off...
If I wasn't still papping myself I'd have slowed down, applauded, gloated and driven off, but I didn't as I was still pulling my fingers out of the steering wheel...
Never again have I experienced that and nor do I want to
I've only experienced it once. I was driving too fast for the conditions.
A car in front of me his a flooded section of the motorway and disappeared. I hit it and aquaplaned, and was hoping quite a lot that the car in front did not hit his brakes as soon as he got some back, as I was just along for the ride.
Fortunately, he did not, although we both saw sense, slowed down and moved well away from the floody lane 3.
A car in front of me his a flooded section of the motorway and disappeared. I hit it and aquaplaned, and was hoping quite a lot that the car in front did not hit his brakes as soon as he got some back, as I was just along for the ride.
Fortunately, he did not, although we both saw sense, slowed down and moved well away from the floody lane 3.
In my max power days I had an rs1800 fiesta and of course ditched the tiny standard wheels for much fatter ones, this resulted in regular aquaplaning on a section of poorly drained dual carriageway on my commute. In the end i went back to narrower tyres and it never happened again.
Less pressure on the contact patch means more likely to aqua plane in my opinion. Rear engined and oversized tyres would certainly make this more likely, again imo.
Less pressure on the contact patch means more likely to aqua plane in my opinion. Rear engined and oversized tyres would certainly make this more likely, again imo.
Last week around the M60 on the tight bits I was overtaken by three random vans doing in excess of 80 in extreme rain.
I was doing c40.
The problem is when such drivers lose it they tend to swerve round all the other lanes first.
That Porsche in the OP, I'm glad he didn't take anyone innocent out
I was doing c40.
The problem is when such drivers lose it they tend to swerve round all the other lanes first.
That Porsche in the OP, I'm glad he didn't take anyone innocent out
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