Large capacity engines. Very sought after or hot potato?
Discussion
Mr E said:
Well, the merc is for sale in a couple of months. So I expect the trough to be about then.
Did you see that low mileage Japanese import that was up for £20k? Edward Hall put in on eBay a couple of weeks ago and it was gone in a few days. Presumably someone paid close to that.https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/384874943232?mkevt=1&am...
The spinner of plates said:
I think weekender / hobby stuff ie Porsche Boxster 4.0 manual - yes.
Big engined everyday stuff ie auto C63 / RS6 estate just isn’t emotive enough to run as a weekender for most and will be taxed to the heavens to run daily - hot potato.
This.Big engined everyday stuff ie auto C63 / RS6 estate just isn’t emotive enough to run as a weekender for most and will be taxed to the heavens to run daily - hot potato.
It always amuses me how someone on PH, who represents 0.01% of all car buyers, seems to think their opinions will become a wider trend/pattern.
Good topic.
To me I think the upper echelon of performance cars with large engines should be fine, its the step below where I think there will be issues. And suvs....
So V8 S4, 550i, almost any of the 4.4v8 bmws, the 4.2 audis that aren't RS etc etc
The running costs and taxes will not be congruent with the 'specialness' of the engine.
To me I think the upper echelon of performance cars with large engines should be fine, its the step below where I think there will be issues. And suvs....
So V8 S4, 550i, almost any of the 4.4v8 bmws, the 4.2 audis that aren't RS etc etc
The running costs and taxes will not be congruent with the 'specialness' of the engine.
FaustF said:
Good topic.
To me I think the upper echelon of performance cars with large engines should be fine, its the step below where I think there will be issues. And suvs....
So V8 S4, 550i, almost any of the 4.4v8 bmws, the 4.2 audis that aren't RS etc etc
The running costs and taxes will not be congruent with the 'specialness' of the engine.
As was always the case - see V6 Lagunas, 406 etc My Dad bought old Jags when he was a teenager as they were cheapTo me I think the upper echelon of performance cars with large engines should be fine, its the step below where I think there will be issues. And suvs....
So V8 S4, 550i, almost any of the 4.4v8 bmws, the 4.2 audis that aren't RS etc etc
The running costs and taxes will not be congruent with the 'specialness' of the engine.
We also need to consider the tax on EV cars after the honeymoon period. At the moment, the VED, BIK, mileage/usage expense, no tax on the electricity is most favourable...it won't always be.
Alternative sustainable and synthetic fuels, could have an impact on maintaining older ICE cars.
My advice is, if you have that itch to scratch, just do it. Live it.
Alternative sustainable and synthetic fuels, could have an impact on maintaining older ICE cars.
My advice is, if you have that itch to scratch, just do it. Live it.
I must admit, it would have to be something very special for me to spend loads on tax. A big engined car is a wonderful thing but I would likely use one high days and holidays, so I'd be paying best part of a grand including insurance to have a car sit outside for 4 days out of 7. Always felt tax should go on fuel, then it becomes pay as you go, which seems fairer?
EVs only worry me because I tend to run cars that are over 10 years old.
I read are about fields full of Renault Zoes that have been dumped less than 10 years old because the price of a new battery is more than the car is worthn then there is that story about the guy who thought he was clever buying a high mileage early Tesla model S for £23k, only to have a fault develop shortly after he bought it that required the battery to be replaced......at a cost of £25k.
Battery technology stories also suggest that these lithium batteries have about an 8 year life, which means you buy a 2014 Tesla with everything crossed.
I read are about fields full of Renault Zoes that have been dumped less than 10 years old because the price of a new battery is more than the car is worthn then there is that story about the guy who thought he was clever buying a high mileage early Tesla model S for £23k, only to have a fault develop shortly after he bought it that required the battery to be replaced......at a cost of £25k.
Battery technology stories also suggest that these lithium batteries have about an 8 year life, which means you buy a 2014 Tesla with everything crossed.
QBee said:
EVs only worry me because I tend to run cars that are over 10 years old.
I read are about fields full of Renault Zoes that have been dumped less than 10 years old because the price of a new battery is more than the car is worthn then there is that story about the guy who thought he was clever buying a high mileage early Tesla model S for 23k, only to have a fault develop shortly after he bought it that required the battery to be replaced......at a cost of 25k.
Battery technology stories also suggest that these lithium batteries have about an 8 year life, which means you buy a 2014 Tesla with everything crossed.
The trend will move to buying the car, and renting the battery.I read are about fields full of Renault Zoes that have been dumped less than 10 years old because the price of a new battery is more than the car is worthn then there is that story about the guy who thought he was clever buying a high mileage early Tesla model S for 23k, only to have a fault develop shortly after he bought it that required the battery to be replaced......at a cost of 25k.
Battery technology stories also suggest that these lithium batteries have about an 8 year life, which means you buy a 2014 Tesla with everything crossed.
QBee said:
EVs only worry me because I tend to run cars that are over 10 years old.
I read are about fields full of Renault Zoes that have been dumped less than 10 years old because the price of a new battery is more than the car is worthn then there is that story about the guy who thought he was clever buying a high mileage early Tesla model S for 23k, only to have a fault develop shortly after he bought it that required the battery to be replaced......at a cost of 25k.
Battery technology stories also suggest that these lithium batteries have about an 8 year life, which means you buy a 2014 Tesla with everything crossed.
That's like a throwback to petrol cars of the 50s/60s/70s when engines were usually clapped out by 100K miles. I read are about fields full of Renault Zoes that have been dumped less than 10 years old because the price of a new battery is more than the car is worthn then there is that story about the guy who thought he was clever buying a high mileage early Tesla model S for 23k, only to have a fault develop shortly after he bought it that required the battery to be replaced......at a cost of 25k.
Battery technology stories also suggest that these lithium batteries have about an 8 year life, which means you buy a 2014 Tesla with everything crossed.
Given the cost of battery packs for EVs I'll stick with my 2005 and 2006 petrol cars - even high road tax looks cheap by comparison!
QBee said:
EVs only worry me because I tend to run cars that are over 10 years old.
I read are about fields full of Renault Zoes that have been dumped less than 10 years old because the price of a new battery is more than the car is worthn then there is that story about the guy who thought he was clever buying a high mileage early Tesla model S for 23k, only to have a fault develop shortly after he bought it that required the battery to be replaced......at a cost of 25k.
Battery technology stories also suggest that these lithium batteries have about an 8 year life, which means you buy a 2014 Tesla with everything crossed.
How many stories have you read regarding people running older/very high mileage EVs without battery issues? Or are you choosing selectively to focus on the stories of people who have EV issues, thus reconfirming the bias you already have?I read are about fields full of Renault Zoes that have been dumped less than 10 years old because the price of a new battery is more than the car is worthn then there is that story about the guy who thought he was clever buying a high mileage early Tesla model S for 23k, only to have a fault develop shortly after he bought it that required the battery to be replaced......at a cost of 25k.
Battery technology stories also suggest that these lithium batteries have about an 8 year life, which means you buy a 2014 Tesla with everything crossed.
raspy said:
QBee said:
EVs only worry me because I tend to run cars that are over 10 years old.
I read are about fields full of Renault Zoes that have been dumped less than 10 years old because the price of a new battery is more than the car is worthn then there is that story about the guy who thought he was clever buying a high mileage early Tesla model S for 23k, only to have a fault develop shortly after he bought it that required the battery to be replaced......at a cost of 25k.
Battery technology stories also suggest that these lithium batteries have about an 8 year life, which means you buy a 2014 Tesla with everything crossed.
How many stories have you read regarding people running older/very high mileage EVs without battery issues? Or are you choosing selectively to focus on the stories of people who have EV issues, thus reconfirming the bias you already have?I read are about fields full of Renault Zoes that have been dumped less than 10 years old because the price of a new battery is more than the car is worthn then there is that story about the guy who thought he was clever buying a high mileage early Tesla model S for 23k, only to have a fault develop shortly after he bought it that required the battery to be replaced......at a cost of 25k.
Battery technology stories also suggest that these lithium batteries have about an 8 year life, which means you buy a 2014 Tesla with everything crossed.
But then people only report problems, not success stories. So yes, I am reacting to incomplete information.
The only "problem" that is not anecdotal is that my sister-in-law had a fairly minor accident in her Tesla Model S and reported that the repair cost was "eye-watering".
I manage a small company car fleet, and am very aware of the plusses and minuses of EVs.
Ultra low benefits in kind draw people in, and then the charging network spits them out again.
My happiest driver was persuaded by me to go for a Tesla with extended range battery, rather than the Audi equivalent he fancied. He covers the M62 corridor and so passes a number of available Tesla chargers every day he is on the road. Quick coffee and deal with his emails and he is on the road again.
My least happy is my Managing director, who went for a Mercedes EQC without doing any research - he was in the Merc showroom collecting his hybrid C350e from a service, and in the space of ten minutes decided to buy their demonstrator because it was shiny, the interior was familiar and it was available.
He has regretted it ever since, because it has a 203 mile range, he lives out on the Suffolk coast, but has customers all over the country. After a number of miserable 8 hour, 250+ mile journeys, searching on his way home for chargers that actually worked and didn't have someone already parked on them, he finally has admitted defeat and now uses his wife's 2016 BMW 330e hybrid when he needs to travel over 200 miles in one go. Which is frequently.
As soon as we have a decent charging network I might consider an EV, but I am not far off retirement, and am already aware that I will need to retain my Nissan Xtrail for towing, as towing anything serious (car trailer, caravan etc) reduces range by over 50%. To be fair it reduces my Nissan's mpg from 40 to 30 too, but that only has fuel bill consequences.
My dilemma is that none of them are actually at the bottom of the market price-wise, and the older, low-range cars represent a risk I am not willing to take vis a vis battery life. Where an older car like a Zoe or a Leaf would make sense is for our local use. We plan to move to rural southern France, so weekly trips to the shops/market etc would be perfect for such a car. It can sit attached to the solar panels at home when it is not in use.
The majority will embrace EV’s soon enough. Most will prefer it, and even if they don't they will be nudged towards it through taxation regardless. Over the next 10 years we will have an ever more electrified fleet and ICE cars will be increasingly heavily taxed (because of climate change targets). This will accelerate the usual trend for older gas guzzling cars to depreciate like stones, in my view. Not only will they be expensive to run, they will generally seem old hat to most people compared to EVs, and many ICE cars could be scrapped sooner than is currently the norm (possibly with government incentives to do so).
Right now it might seem like EVs have little to offer enthusiasts, but I reckon that many will have their heads turned by new, interesting EV sports cars in the next few years. A silent Elise could be fun. There may be a pool of hardcore petrolheads who will hold out, but not enough to support the values of ICE cars from the 2010s/20s, which could plummet (as cars at that 10-20 year age so often do anyway). I am sceptical that the “it’s one of the last manual ICE 2 series” type arguments will sustain values in the short to medium term. I suspect that some people are being fooled by the current short term blip in values into thinking their new-ish semi-interesting car will defy financial gravity indefinitely.
Longer term, as is so often the case with all sorts of objects, those few ICE cars that people have kept will no doubt end up being highly valuable. The few who could be bothered to mothball cars or even keep running them in the face of high taxation will find they have highly-prized examples of our motoring heritage - heritage that we were initially so quick to throw away in the rush to electrification. But it could be 20-30 years before we get to that point.
Right now it might seem like EVs have little to offer enthusiasts, but I reckon that many will have their heads turned by new, interesting EV sports cars in the next few years. A silent Elise could be fun. There may be a pool of hardcore petrolheads who will hold out, but not enough to support the values of ICE cars from the 2010s/20s, which could plummet (as cars at that 10-20 year age so often do anyway). I am sceptical that the “it’s one of the last manual ICE 2 series” type arguments will sustain values in the short to medium term. I suspect that some people are being fooled by the current short term blip in values into thinking their new-ish semi-interesting car will defy financial gravity indefinitely.
Longer term, as is so often the case with all sorts of objects, those few ICE cars that people have kept will no doubt end up being highly valuable. The few who could be bothered to mothball cars or even keep running them in the face of high taxation will find they have highly-prized examples of our motoring heritage - heritage that we were initially so quick to throw away in the rush to electrification. But it could be 20-30 years before we get to that point.
Lil_Red_GTV said:
The majority will embrace EV’s soon enough. Most will prefer it, and even if they don't they will be nudged towards it through taxation regardless. Over the next 10 years we will have an ever more electrified fleet and ICE cars will be increasingly heavily taxed (because of climate change targets). This will accelerate the usual trend for older gas guzzling cars to depreciate like stones, in my view. Not only will they be expensive to run, they will generally seem old hat to most people compared to EVs, and many ICE cars could be scrapped sooner than is currently the norm (possibly with government incentives to do so).
Right now it might seem like EVs have little to offer enthusiasts, but I reckon that many will have their heads turned by new, interesting EV sports cars in the next few years. A silent Elise could be fun. There may be a pool of hardcore petrolheads who will hold out, but not enough to support the values of ICE cars from the 2010s/20s, which could plummet (as cars at that 10-20 year age so often do anyway). I am sceptical that the “it’s one of the last manual ICE 2 series” type arguments will sustain values in the short to medium term. I suspect that some people are being fooled by the current short term blip in values into thinking their new-ish semi-interesting car will defy financial gravity indefinitely.
Longer term, as is so often the case with all sorts of objects, those few ICE cars that people have kept will no doubt end up being highly valuable. The few who could be bothered to mothball cars or even keep running them in the face of high taxation will find they have highly-prized examples of our motoring heritage - heritage that we were initially so quick to throw away in the rush to electrification. But it could be 20-30 years before we get to that point.
Pretty good summary. Right now it might seem like EVs have little to offer enthusiasts, but I reckon that many will have their heads turned by new, interesting EV sports cars in the next few years. A silent Elise could be fun. There may be a pool of hardcore petrolheads who will hold out, but not enough to support the values of ICE cars from the 2010s/20s, which could plummet (as cars at that 10-20 year age so often do anyway). I am sceptical that the “it’s one of the last manual ICE 2 series” type arguments will sustain values in the short to medium term. I suspect that some people are being fooled by the current short term blip in values into thinking their new-ish semi-interesting car will defy financial gravity indefinitely.
Longer term, as is so often the case with all sorts of objects, those few ICE cars that people have kept will no doubt end up being highly valuable. The few who could be bothered to mothball cars or even keep running them in the face of high taxation will find they have highly-prized examples of our motoring heritage - heritage that we were initially so quick to throw away in the rush to electrification. But it could be 20-30 years before we get to that point.
But “a silent Elise could be fun”… ?
Nah.
Be like having sex with your partner yet they climax in silence.
The screams and the real time feedback is all part of going fast and slow.
The spinner of plates said:
Pretty good summary.
But “a silent Elise could be fun”… ?
Nah.
Be like having sex with your partner yet they climax in silence.
The screams and the real time feedback is all part of going fast and slow.
Swiss Toni "driving a car is like making love to a beautiful woman"But “a silent Elise could be fun”… ?
Nah.
Be like having sex with your partner yet they climax in silence.
The screams and the real time feedback is all part of going fast and slow.
Sold my Grand Cherokee 4.0L last week. (sub 20mpg)
Selling my Audi S8 4.2L next week. (sub 20mpg)
Driving about in a little 1.6L (over 60mpg)
I'm done with cars.. they are now just a vehicle to me and I have no interest in them or paying to keep them on the road.
EV will be here soon and then I can properly close the box on "interesting" cars and my near life long passion and hobby and it'll be the first time in 25 years that I don't have a V8 engine in the fleet......
Selling my Audi S8 4.2L next week. (sub 20mpg)
Driving about in a little 1.6L (over 60mpg)
I'm done with cars.. they are now just a vehicle to me and I have no interest in them or paying to keep them on the road.
EV will be here soon and then I can properly close the box on "interesting" cars and my near life long passion and hobby and it'll be the first time in 25 years that I don't have a V8 engine in the fleet......
Iamnotkloot said:
The spinner of plates said:
Pretty good summary.
But “a silent Elise could be fun”… ?
Nah.
Be like having sex with your partner yet they climax in silence.
The screams and the real time feedback is all part of going fast and slow.
Swiss Toni "driving a car is like making love to a beautiful woman"But “a silent Elise could be fun”… ?
Nah.
Be like having sex with your partner yet they climax in silence.
The screams and the real time feedback is all part of going fast and slow.
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