RE: Incredible Prodrive P25 revealed ahead of debut
Discussion
Silvanus said:
In the light of day thats not remotely incredible to look at, sounds awful too (I normally love the sound of a scooby), you really must have everything else of be a complete Subaru nerd to want this over some other very special cars out there
Sound was not bad, but sounded not as a hungry Subaru engine indeed, this one does, listen, scrol to from 1 min.Max_Torque said:
take-good-care-of-the-forest-dewey said:
Max_Torque said:
The P2 was probably almost certainly the biggest heap of s**t i ever worked on at Prodrive.....
A load of poorly thought-through, last minute, cobbled together mish mash of WRC and std scooby parts very badly packaged into a body about 2/3rd too small to hold them. Nothing worked, everything was a bodge,basically a concept car, and a terrible one at that.
ATD never "caught on" for road cars because it could only control yaw under positive torque and the first thing any normal driver does when things go soouth is lift off meaning there is to torque to apportion! Manufacturers like Audi eventually did there own version and active diffs and torque apportioning became common place for high performance cars, whereas braking yaw control via ABS/DSC became near universal for most cars.
The biggest issue that wasn't solved for ATD that modern systems have eventually sorted is how faithfully to follow the handwheel input. The problem is, most drivers instinctively add opposite lock when oversteering, which ATD takes to mean "now turn the other way" which is generally not what is actually wanted......
So in the video, am I right in thinking the Evo was turned in off the throttle and the ATD car was steady state? A load of poorly thought-through, last minute, cobbled together mish mash of WRC and std scooby parts very badly packaged into a body about 2/3rd too small to hold them. Nothing worked, everything was a bodge,basically a concept car, and a terrible one at that.
ATD never "caught on" for road cars because it could only control yaw under positive torque and the first thing any normal driver does when things go soouth is lift off meaning there is to torque to apportion! Manufacturers like Audi eventually did there own version and active diffs and torque apportioning became common place for high performance cars, whereas braking yaw control via ABS/DSC became near universal for most cars.
The biggest issue that wasn't solved for ATD that modern systems have eventually sorted is how faithfully to follow the handwheel input. The problem is, most drivers instinctively add opposite lock when oversteering, which ATD takes to mean "now turn the other way" which is generally not what is actually wanted......
The fuundamental reason the EVO spins and the scoob doesn't is roll stiffness distribution and engine location. Scoobs broadly understeer because they were never very stiff across the back and because their engine is way up front, EVO's pretty much oversteer fundamentally for the opposite reasons.
ATD vs non ATD in a scood did make a difference, and one that could be fetl and measured, but the cost and complexity of the system made that a non starter for production. Std scoobs obviously got the DCCD centre diff, but with their fundamental layout as mentioned, that really was never going to make that much difference (front tyres are always going to overload first).
My fav handling scoob was actually a SpecC which had had its front drive shafts removed, making it rwd only.......... Basically a forerunner to a GT-86 turbo by about 20 years :-)
Harrypop said:
To be fair when I watched the video last night it didn't look like he was trying his hardest to correct the Evo's course anyhow (in comparison to his efforts with the non ATD Scooby), was there any intentional bias being exibited?
It ldid look like he was over-dramatising the slide, which he knew was about to take place...aaron_2000 said:
Why would they use V1-3 interiors on a 22B tribute? Surely a V4-6 interior would've been more fitting than the god awful pre facelift interior. Even if it wasn't fitting, surely for £550k you'd at least want the nicer interior design?
it's not a 22B tribute though is it? ...i thought it was an S3 WRC tribute (so based on a 97 Type R shell which it uses as a donor)Edited by aaron_2000 on Friday 24th June 14:49
although for £550k you'd have thought they could have come up with a decent bespoke rally inspired dash
soundtrack is also a bit uninspired too, considering it's one of the most iconic things on a classic Impreza
Max_Torque said:
ATD can "lock" the cross axle diffs to provide yaw damping, but under extreme dynamics this doesn't make a lot of difference because the cross axle loading is also masively biased, meaning the lightly loaded tyre can't actually do anything with that tractive effort.
The fuundamental reason the EVO spins and the scoob doesn't is roll stiffness distribution and engine location. Scoobs broadly understeer because they were never very stiff across the back and because their engine is way up front, EVO's pretty much oversteer fundamentally for the opposite reasons.
ATD vs non ATD in a scood did make a difference, and one that could be fetl and measured, but the cost and complexity of the system made that a non starter for production. Std scoobs obviously got the DCCD centre diff, but with their fundamental layout as mentioned, that really was never going to make that much difference (front tyres are always going to overload first).
My fav handling scoob was actually a SpecC which had had its front drive shafts removed, making it rwd only.......... Basically a forerunner to a GT-86 turbo by about 20 years :-)
Thanks for the explanation. The fuundamental reason the EVO spins and the scoob doesn't is roll stiffness distribution and engine location. Scoobs broadly understeer because they were never very stiff across the back and because their engine is way up front, EVO's pretty much oversteer fundamentally for the opposite reasons.
ATD vs non ATD in a scood did make a difference, and one that could be fetl and measured, but the cost and complexity of the system made that a non starter for production. Std scoobs obviously got the DCCD centre diff, but with their fundamental layout as mentioned, that really was never going to make that much difference (front tyres are always going to overload first).
My fav handling scoob was actually a SpecC which had had its front drive shafts removed, making it rwd only.......... Basically a forerunner to a GT-86 turbo by about 20 years :-)
PAUL.S. said:
I believe Dave Richards started out as a quantity surveyor, and being one myself I know how tight they are with money! its no doubt how he made the business thrive all these years
There's no mention of that in his book Driven Man. Five years accountancy, then straight into being a professional co-driver.thegreenhell said:
Henry's view of it
Watched the videoDoes not make me feel any better
Some body lines and fitment is awful
They obviously buy the gearbox components else where, as they do not mention it's an in-house unit (I suspect it's the one linked previously) - if it was an in-house designed and built unit I could understand it but it's obviously bought in
They don't really talk about the suspension other than "it's WRC" - again makes me think it's nothing special
AP Racing brakes made "to specification" - again, off the shelf basically with custom request for piston sizes or leading / trailing configuration I would suspect
interior looks very low rent, good for a Subaru of that era, but not enough
450hp - Enough , if it's reliable, with roller bearing turbos and able to be abused all day, fair enough
On the body, about carbon fibre they only mention bonnet, wings and roof (Not wings or rear quarters or doors) - So not the whole car in carbon fibre, if it was the full body they'd be really proud and state this surely?
Henry says "it's basically a WRC car but backed off just enough to be usable on the road" or words to that effect at the end of the video
Sorry, I completely disagree, a properly built, active WRC & competitive WRC car is literally 1/2 the price, I appreciate those are not as nice for the road, but the beauty of those are they are fully adjustable to your requirements by means of their proper race suspension - It's a road car that's been given the facade of a WRC car to rich investors.
I liked the car, but not for the price , I was obviously not a fan from the beginning - the more I view of it, from further pictures and walk arounds, it's an obvious cash grab which is built by competent engineers using parts which are nowhere near as expensive or rare as they make it out to be
It will be a very brave journalist that says it though, most are unfortunately afraid to say anything negative for fear of being struck off being featured in the past, or mauled online by fans
Flame away
CarCrazyDad said:
thegreenhell said:
Henry's view of it
Watched the videoDoes not make me feel any better
Some body lines with door shut are awful
They obviously buy the gearbox components else where, as they do not mention it's an in-house unit (I suspect it's the one linked previously)
They don't really talk about the suspension other than "it's WRC" - again makes me think it's nothing special
AP Racing brakes made "to specification" - again, off the shelf basically with custom request for piston sizes or leading / trailing configuration I would suspect
interior looks very low rent, good for a Subaru of that era, but not enough
On the body about carbon fibre they only mention bonnet, wings and roof (Not wings or rear quarters or doors) - So not the whole car in carbon fibre
Henry says "it's basically a WRC car but backed off just enough to be usable on the road" or words to that effect at the end of the video
Sorry, I completely disagree, a properly built, active WRC & competitive WRC car is literally 1/2 the price, I appreciate those are not as nice for the road, but the beauty of those are they are fully adjustable to your requirements by means of their proper race suspension
I liked the car, but not for the price , I was obviously not a fan from the beginning - the more I view of it, from further pictures and walk arounds, it's an obvious cash grab which is built by competent engineers using parts which are nowhere near as expensive or rare as they make it out to be
It will be a very brave journalist that says it though, most are unfortunately afraid to say anything negative for fear of being struck off being featured in the past, or mauled online by fans
Flame away
Whilst I appreciate The Festival of Greed is a great shop window, but if all 25 cars were effectively sold prior to this week, I'd have thought they'd have been better off organising demonstration days at a closed event so the purchasers could experience the car and what it's capable of with someone like Mark Higgins behind the wheel, then they'd get the opportunity to get behind the wheel themselves. One they'd experienced the car, they'd then be shown the various options available and decide on their chosen spec.
Turning up at the FoG with a prototype that features an interior that's not representative along with shonky shutlines seems a strange decision ... unless of course they've plans to offer an upgrade service to individuals wanting a similar car but who've missed out on this batch of 25 cars ... (which would make sense if they wanted to amortise/further profit from the investment they made for the "initial" limited edition P25 cars ...)
CarCrazyDad said:
It will be a very brave journalist that says it though, most are unfortunately afraid to say anything negative for fear of being struck off being featured in the past, or mauled online by fans
Flame away
didn't stop EVO from giving their honest opinion about the new lotus Flame away
It seems that rather than selling 25 cars, they have actually sold 25 slots at circa £500k and it is up to each customer as to how their car is speced, based on the modified bodyshell shown being the starting point.
The Demo car just shows it running and driving in a civilised spec as an example of what can be done.
The Demo car just shows it running and driving in a civilised spec as an example of what can be done.
Slippydiff said:
Not David Lapworth's finest interview. Should have left it to DR, he's much more adept in such situations.
Whilst I appreciate The Festival of Greed is a great shop window, but if all 25 cars were effectively sold prior to this week, I'd have thought they'd have been better off organising demonstration days at a closed event so the purchasers could experience the car and what it's capable of with someone like Mark Higgins behind the wheel, then they'd get the opportunity to get behind the wheel themselves. One they'd experienced the car, they'd then be shown the various options available and decide on their chosen spec.
Turning up at the FoG with a prototype that features an interior that's not representative along with shonky shutlines seems a strange decision ... unless of course they've plans to offer an upgrade service to individuals wanting a similar car but who've missed out on this batch of 25 cars ... (which would make sense if they wanted to amortise/further profit from the investment they made for the "initial" limited edition P25 cars ...)
I think you are on the money there, no been driven in the wet, body and interior not finalised…but still sold all of them at half a million each. Bragging rights for the super rich petrol head is a good hook.Whilst I appreciate The Festival of Greed is a great shop window, but if all 25 cars were effectively sold prior to this week, I'd have thought they'd have been better off organising demonstration days at a closed event so the purchasers could experience the car and what it's capable of with someone like Mark Higgins behind the wheel, then they'd get the opportunity to get behind the wheel themselves. One they'd experienced the car, they'd then be shown the various options available and decide on their chosen spec.
Turning up at the FoG with a prototype that features an interior that's not representative along with shonky shutlines seems a strange decision ... unless of course they've plans to offer an upgrade service to individuals wanting a similar car but who've missed out on this batch of 25 cars ... (which would make sense if they wanted to amortise/further profit from the investment they made for the "initial" limited edition P25 cars ...)
I’m not sure if I missed something along the way but TVR still cannot even show a factory roof to the taxpayers of Wales, or punters at @ Goodwood.
Yet some posters are queuing up to kick Prodrive for selling all their projected cars production prior to the car spending a full 12 months or longer in development, and all this without a penny contribution from the government, if only one car is eventually exported then that looks like a good news story in my book?
Seems to me that their only crime is to sell all 25 cars over some fantasy 100k price point that only exists in the mind of demon tweaks subscribers, who never have or never will drop 100k on a toy of any description?
Or am I over simplifying things ?
Yet some posters are queuing up to kick Prodrive for selling all their projected cars production prior to the car spending a full 12 months or longer in development, and all this without a penny contribution from the government, if only one car is eventually exported then that looks like a good news story in my book?
Seems to me that their only crime is to sell all 25 cars over some fantasy 100k price point that only exists in the mind of demon tweaks subscribers, who never have or never will drop 100k on a toy of any description?
Or am I over simplifying things ?
blue al said:
I’m not sure if I missed something along the way but TVR still cannot even show a factory roof to the taxpayers of Wales, or punters at @ Goodwood.
Yet some posters are queuing up to kick Prodrive for selling all their projected cars production prior to the car spending a full 12 months or longer in development, and all this without a penny contribution from the government, if only one car is eventually exported then that looks like a good news story in my book?
Seems to me that their only crime is to sell all 25 cars over some fantasy 100k price point that only exists in the mind of demon tweaks subscribers, who never have or never will drop 100k on a toy of any description?
Or am I over simplifying things ?
I’d say that all that proves is the Welsh government are more gullible then they’ve been given credit for ...Yet some posters are queuing up to kick Prodrive for selling all their projected cars production prior to the car spending a full 12 months or longer in development, and all this without a penny contribution from the government, if only one car is eventually exported then that looks like a good news story in my book?
Seems to me that their only crime is to sell all 25 cars over some fantasy 100k price point that only exists in the mind of demon tweaks subscribers, who never have or never will drop 100k on a toy of any description?
Or am I over simplifying things ?
I’d also suggest that Prodrive’s coffers are suitably deep as to nor require any up front funding of a project such as this. But that’s not always been the case, as I can attest ...
The whole time I’ve been looking at it I’ve been thinking there is something off about it, and having watched the Carfection vid on big telly I’ve finally twigged.
It has standard V3+ side bonnet vents, the 22B and rally cars had different chunkier ones.
It is making the P25 look like a bodykitted STI not a proper rally car.
I am a bit more positive about the car as a whole having seen that vid, I still can’t get on board with the price but it seems it very much isn’t a finalised concept especially interior wise. Don’t like the wheels either, something like the old tarmac rally wheels would be much better, think it is also the wheels adding to the kitted STI vibe
It has standard V3+ side bonnet vents, the 22B and rally cars had different chunkier ones.
It is making the P25 look like a bodykitted STI not a proper rally car.
I am a bit more positive about the car as a whole having seen that vid, I still can’t get on board with the price but it seems it very much isn’t a finalised concept especially interior wise. Don’t like the wheels either, something like the old tarmac rally wheels would be much better, think it is also the wheels adding to the kitted STI vibe
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