RE: McMurtry Spéirling takes FOS Hillclimb record

[otolith]

Unreal said:

tr3a said:

Funk said:

Maybe one day they'll 'perfect' making EVs feel and sound like ICE cars, simulating gear-shifts, sounds and torque/power curves. But would that be enough, knowing it's all faked?

What's the point of wanting to hold on to last century's noises? They were the sounds of inefficiency, of wasting 75% fuel in heat and noise, of forever desperately trying to compensate for the ridiculously peaky torque curves of ICE's with boxes full of mechanical gears and clutches, of primitive mechanisms that were in essence still based on reciprocating steam engines, but noisier. It may 'feel' good, but when you think about it, in 2022, it's all rather ridiculous and antiquated, don't you think?

The same reason I hold on to a watch that's 60 years old? I'm sure there are more accurate watches available but I don't need a watch to be accurate within microseconds every year - or minutes for that matter - and I don't need or want a digital form of transport.

Several replies to this which appear to miss the context of Tr3a’s point - would you want a digital watch which fakes the quirks of a mechanical one? Needs winding, loses time?

He was talking about the suggestion that EVs could be made to fake ICE behaviour.

Still, plenty of contemporary ICE cars have fake electronic engine sound enhancement, so maybe people would go for it.

[CanAm]

CanAm said:

Funk said:

Maybe one day they'll 'perfect' making EVs feel and sound like ICE cars, simulating gear-shifts, sounds and torque/power curves. But would that be enough, knowing it's all faked?

There is one, mentioned in PH recently. Wish I could remember what it was.

It was the Everrati electric GT40. “Everrati has said that its GT40 will get a ‘Race Mode’ that among other things activates an augmented exhaust sound that uses tech from racing simulators to pump 110db of V8 sound into the cabin. Apparently in this mode the driver can also use the gear shifter to make fake shifts, with the sound generators and torque delivery from the e-motors making it feel like you’re actually changing gear.

[Cobnapint]

If this is their first attempt. Just imagine the results in 3 or 4 years time. The driver will probably have to wear a g-suit.

[Unreal]

otolith said:

Unreal said:

tr3a said:

Funk said:

Maybe one day they'll 'perfect' making EVs feel and sound like ICE cars, simulating gear-shifts, sounds and torque/power curves. But would that be enough, knowing it's all faked?

What's the point of wanting to hold on to last century's noises? They were the sounds of inefficiency, of wasting 75% fuel in heat and noise, of forever desperately trying to compensate for the ridiculously peaky torque curves of ICE's with boxes full of mechanical gears and clutches, of primitive mechanisms that were in essence still based on reciprocating steam engines, but noisier. It may 'feel' good, but when you think about it, in 2022, it's all rather ridiculous and antiquated, don't you think?

The same reason I hold on to a watch that's 60 years old? I'm sure there are more accurate watches available but I don't need a watch to be accurate within microseconds every year - or minutes for that matter - and I don't need or want a digital form of transport.

Several replies to this which appear to miss the context of Tr3a’s point - would you want a digital watch which fakes the quirks of a mechanical one? Needs winding, loses time?

He was talking about the suggestion that EVs could be made to fake ICE behaviour.

Still, plenty of contemporary ICE cars have fake electronic engine sound enhancement, so maybe people would go for it.

Perhaps he could clarify that then? He made reference to a lot of mechanical issues and referred to the basic principles as primitive. He also talked about feeling, which isn't the same as hearing afaik. I'm aware my Yaris has sound enhancement and I don't like that either but the car itself is nothing like an EV apart from the wheel at each corner. I suspect the sound enhancement is simply a way to counter noise regulations rather than a way to make the car sound like something it's not.

[anonymous-user]

Cobnapint said:

If this is their first attempt. Just imagine the results in 3 or 4 years time. The driver will probably have to wear a g-suit.

G suits dont work in a car, the load is in the wrong direction to be required or work.

F1 cars pull over 5G, you wont be seeing that at goodwood or on the road.

[millen]

jsf said:

Max_Torque said:

Measuring the inlet pressure to the extract fan is also going to give you a very good idea of the DF created by that fan!

I don't think it had much fan DF, because otherwise he could have been later and harder on the brakes and unlike a conventional aero car where you must relieve brake pressure as the speed scrubs off, he should have been able to brake at a consitently high G right down to zero speed if necessary.

0.9 of a second faster than the IDR, most of which i suspect was in the first 100m says this car hasn't got any more DF than that one (especially as it meant to also have a significantly higher (33%) Power to Mass ratio).

My suspicion is that the porousity of the road surface is a major problem at speed........

There isnt much braking required on that run, the only heavy braking point is a bh of a road surface so you tend to give more progression there anyway.

A proper circuit should be bonkers in the slow speed compared to a conventional car.

This makes sense to me. Just to quote from Top Gear yesterday ''It’s so tiny, yet so loud. I’ve never seen anything go round a corner like that.'' Hard to imagine that McMurtry would put in all that fan development just to get a 1-sec advantage on initial acceleration. It's a pity Goodwood don't position speed cameras at a few strategic points, like Ski Sunday. That would demonstrate whether or not it's faster in bends. But I guess that would start to dilute the ethos of the Shootout. Maybe a clever techie could do a frame by frame video analysis to estimate cornering speeds?

[GroundEffect]

millen said:

jsf said:

Max_Torque said:

Measuring the inlet pressure to the extract fan is also going to give you a very good idea of the DF created by that fan!

I don't think it had much fan DF, because otherwise he could have been later and harder on the brakes and unlike a conventional aero car where you must relieve brake pressure as the speed scrubs off, he should have been able to brake at a consitently high G right down to zero speed if necessary.

0.9 of a second faster than the IDR, most of which i suspect was in the first 100m says this car hasn't got any more DF than that one (especially as it meant to also have a significantly higher (33%) Power to Mass ratio).

My suspicion is that the porousity of the road surface is a major problem at speed........

There isnt much braking required on that run, the only heavy braking point is a bh of a road surface so you tend to give more progression there anyway.

A proper circuit should be bonkers in the slow speed compared to a conventional car.

This makes sense to me. Just to quote from Top Gear yesterday ''It’s so tiny, yet so loud. I’ve never seen anything go round a corner like that.'' Hard to imagine that McMurtry would put in all that fan development just to get a 1-sec advantage on initial acceleration. It's a pity Goodwood don't position speed cameras at a few strategic points, like Ski Sunday. That would demonstrate whether or not it's faster in bends. But I guess that would start to dilute the ethos of the Shootout. Maybe a clever techie could do a frame by frame video analysis to estimate cornering speeds?

They used to have speeds at the entry to Molecomb and over the finish. This year the timing didn't seem right - a lot of runs were without a timer at all, and when they were, the elapsing time didn't match the final.

[bigmowley]

Gary C said:

So what do we think it could do on the IOM TT course ? (if its batteries would last long enough)

Too many bumps for the fan to be effective ?, but its width and acceleration would also make an impact.

The TT course is an interesting proposition. In its favour the size of the thing and it’s PtW ratio. Against that the TT course is proper bumpy with off camber sections and lots of yumps, all of which must cause big fluctuations in the downforce and hence grip. Ballaugh Bridge anyone? Also it’s not much use if it’s top speed is limited to 150mph, the big bikes average well over 130mph with lots of long sections run at over 150mph, the TT course is properly quick when you can straighten out all the bends! It will need to push 200mph in some places.

[Deckert]

GroundEffect said:

They used to have speeds at the entry to Molecomb and over the finish. This year the timing didn't seem right - a lot of runs were without a timer at all, and when they were, the elapsing time didn't match the final.

I missed that too, always used to have splits times and speeds but none of that this year.

[ajprice]

I've found a picture of the prototypes

[cidered77]

Deckert said:

GroundEffect said:

They used to have speeds at the entry to Molecomb and over the finish. This year the timing didn't seem right - a lot of runs were without a timer at all, and when they were, the elapsing time didn't match the final.

I missed that too, always used to have splits times and speeds but none of that this year.

they had split times on the comms - watched all of it this year all days whilst in the garage.

And not all runs are timed, same as it's always been. it's about 50/50 usually- think you have to specifically say "this is a timed run"

On this car - i am an absolute fanboy (as it were); absolutely love it. Also had similar thoughts (but articulated in less detail in my head) than Max_torque... shouldn't that much instant downforce make it even quicker than that? Suspect a lot more to come from that car...

In the paddock interviews Max reckons they might have a crack at Silverstone, and that 1:35 could be possible. OK that's not quite F1 (though is F1 racepace!), but this thing has a licence plate!! It's absolutely staggering, and way beyond even the Valkiyre's claims - which I note havent been backed up after many years talking.

There has not been a single car with a licence plate sold able to break 2:05 at Silverstone before - please someone correct me if i'm wrong, but if there is - i haven't seen it. To even talk about 30 seconds quicker is just amazing.

And - it's both possible to simultaneous be blown away by this, but also not seen it as a threat to your ICE car. You can celebrate the future without having it compromise your appreciation of the past...

[CO2000]

Deckert said:

Skylinecrazy said:

Still think Alex Summers would be on pace if he took the firestorm up the hill.

Alex unfortunately is now going to be overlooked. Faster than max after one run.

Possibly, GW Jr did a 42 secs in 2003 with 450hp and the top cars now have around 700hp.
Would be interesting to hear Alex's view on it.
The McMurtry will be at Prescott in September which should be enlightening.

I think any of the current top 3 BHC would have pushed it close up there, nothing else did (by design? amazing you can have a hillclimb without proper hillclimb cars for nearly 20 years!)

[otolith]

Unreal said:

Perhaps he could clarify that then? He made reference to a lot of mechanical issues and referred to the basic principles as primitive. He also talked about feeling, which isn't the same as hearing afaik. I'm aware my Yaris has sound enhancement and I don't like that either but the car itself is nothing like an EV apart from the wheel at each corner. I suspect the sound enhancement is simply a way to counter noise regulations rather than a way to make the car sound like something it's not.

I read it not as saying "you shouldn't love those old mechanical things" so much as "it's pointless to hold onto those attributes when using an objectively better technology which doesn't have them". He's right that those things we like about ICE are largely the result of the powertrain's deficiencies and our workarounds for them.

The artificial sound enhancement these days is about noise regs making it harder to arrange intake and exhaust to make nice noises but also about compensating for down-sizing, down-speeding, reduced cylinder count, turbocharging, catalysts, particulate filters. There is some similar work being done with EVs to make the whine they naturally make more appealing.

[otolith]

Isn't the point of the fan car only partly that it can maintain downforce down to 0mph but also that it avoids the downforce/drag trade-off?

[cidered77]

CO2000 said:

Deckert said:

Skylinecrazy said:

Still think Alex Summers would be on pace if he took the firestorm up the hill.

Alex unfortunately is now going to be overlooked. Faster than max after one run.

Possibly, GW Jr did a 42 secs in 2003 with 450hp and the top cars now have around 700hp.
Would be interesting to hear Alex's view on it.
The McMurtry will be at Prescott in September which should be enlightening.

I think any of the current top 3 BHC would have pushed it close up there, nothing else did (by design? amazing you can have a hillclimb without proper hillclimb cars for nearly 20 years!)

Knowing someone who knows him, and has asked .,, he reckons his car would be quicker, high 37s/low 38s, but also the McMurty has a lot more in it too.

That’s still unbelievable considering one is the absolute pinnacle of automotive development for going up a hill very quickly ., and the other has a licence plate. And we talk about range for EVs a lot but don’t be kidding yourselves a hill climb has the range to do a lap of the ring either !

Think Goodwood isn’t really a competitive event, it’s a fun event. The general public they figure needs to impressed with various exotic prototypes and exotic racecars, they don’t need to know a proper BHC car is faster …

[Olivera]

cidered77 said:

Knowing someone who knows him, and has asked .,, he reckons his car would be quicker, high 37s/low 38s, but also the McMurty has a lot more in it too.

Indeed, and then there's the fact that a hillclimb car was developed to meet a set of motorsport rules and regulations, whereas the McMurty is a pure prototype that has to adhere to nothing. If the motorsport regs were tossed out for an ICE car and someone were so inclined and had the budget, what could an ICE car do up the hill - 30 seconds flat? The top hillclimb cars are 450kg and 700bhp, so with a turbo engine on nitrous plus a fan design it should be possible to get 1000bhp (more than the McMurty) at half the weight (500kg).

[cidered77]

Olivera said:

cidered77 said:

Knowing someone who knows him, and has asked .,, he reckons his car would be quicker, high 37s/low 38s, but also the McMurty has a lot more in it too.

Indeed, and then there's the fact that a hillclimb car was developed to meet a set of motorsport rules and regulations, whereas the McMurty is a pure prototype that has to adhere to nothing. If the motorsport regs were tossed out for an ICE car and someone were so inclined, what could an ICE car do up the hill - 30 seconds flat? The top hillclimb cars are 450kg and 700bhp, so with a turbo engine on nitrous plus a fan design it should be possible to get 1000bhp (more than the McMurty) at half the weight (500kg).

This is an interesting one for me … if you removed the rules, and wanted the single fastest way up the hill, which powertain would you pick.

Conventional wisdom is EVs are heavy.,. But the motors aren’t, the batteries are. And you only need enough energy for going up a hill.

Then throw in the fact with a much shorter course you spend a higher percentage of it accelerating from rest than a circuit, and EVs will always win there , then I think you’d pick EV and a fan…

The McMurtry wasn’t built to a ruleset, but is road registered and was can reasonably assume has more range than one trip up the hill….

[Sandpit Steve]

CO2000 said:

Deckert said:

Skylinecrazy said:

Still think Alex Summers would be on pace if he took the firestorm up the hill.

Alex unfortunately is now going to be overlooked. Faster than max after one run.

Possibly, GW Jr did a 42 secs in 2003 with 450hp and the top cars now have around 700hp.
Would be interesting to hear Alex's view on it.
The McMurtry will be at Prescott in September which should be enlightening.

I think any of the current top 3 BHC would have pushed it close up there, nothing else did (by design? amazing you can have a hillclimb without proper hillclimb cars for nearly 20 years!)

It would have been great to see the McMurtry, George Russell in the 2019 Mercedes F1, and Wallace Menzies in his Gould hillclimb special, all go for the ultimate time.

Probably not an awful lot to choose between them, despite being three very different cars.

[cidered77]

Sandpit Steve said:

CO2000 said:

Deckert said:

Skylinecrazy said:

Still think Alex Summers would be on pace if he took the firestorm up the hill.

Alex unfortunately is now going to be overlooked. Faster than max after one run.

Possibly, GW Jr did a 42 secs in 2003 with 450hp and the top cars now have around 700hp.
Would be interesting to hear Alex's view on it.
The McMurtry will be at Prescott in September which should be enlightening.

I think any of the current top 3 BHC would have pushed it close up there, nothing else did (by design? amazing you can have a hillclimb without proper hillclimb cars for nearly 20 years!)

It would have been great to see the McMurtry, George Russell in the 2019 Mercedes F1, and Wallace Menzies in his Gould hillclimb special, all go for the ultimate time.

Probably not an awful lot to choose between them, despite being three very different cars.

Not sure a modern F1 car would be competitive as the other two … too physically big, and quite heavy. Really poorly suited to the hill , even vs the V10 20 years ago

[Byker28i]

Love the engineering though - what a sucess