RE: McMurtry Spéirling takes FOS Hillclimb record
Discussion
Max_Torque said:
Sway said:
However, I don't think the fan is the USP. The size/weight is, in comparison to pretty much every other EV on the market - which are all huge and heavy.
But it's small and light because it has one seat, no luggage space, zero concesions to practicalities or useability. A Caterham is lighter and has TWO seats remember!Road EVs are huge and heavy because once you make an actual, practical road car, big enough for more than one small person and their luggage, and that passes crash tests, and has things like heating, a radio, ABS, and all the other stuff we now demand for our road cars, you end up with a bigger, heavier car. Take my i3s. Carbon body, ally subframes, small wheels/tyres, seats 4 in comfort with a bit of boot space and passes all crash tests and has a decent feature content, and it weighs 1,300kg and it itself is probably the lightest you could make such a car.
Alternatively, what about a Twizzy? 1 seat, tiny amount of space, 450kg. They didn't exactly fly off the shelves, especially in the cold,wet and dark UK (probably work better in the south of france than the south of london tbh)
The only really novel thing about this car is substituting the fan for draggy wings, which makes sense as a race car, but for a road car, you just delete the wings entirely because DF on a road car is stupid, dangerous and un-usable.
t about weight and usable 'fun' performance.Yet it's still a 4 seat hatch.
Why couldn't something that's not a tall, 4 seat practical hatch be made?
Yes, this one only has one seat, etc. - but there's a middle ground that's being completely ignored.
Sway said:
Yes, this one only has one seat, etc. - but there's a middle ground that's being completely ignored.
The "middle ground" is currently ignored because there is no serious volume there!Once the OEs have their drivetrains developed and paid for by the mass market models, the niches will appear.
The problem is that the middle ground is compromise city.
Realistically, fore/rear seating has never been made to work (compared to side-by-side) so your narrowness isn't possible, and once you have a car that meets all the necessary road regulation you end up with a certain mass.
I've looked closely at my i3 with regard to how much smaller / lighter a two seat sports car based on the same battery/subframes could be, and really the answer is "not much" unfortunately, especially with the i3 door arrangement than already means there is no heavy/bulky B pillar. The doors are already composite/plastic, the seats pretty thin and light weight. I'd take a decent guess at there being a maximum of 100kg of mass saving if you REALLY pushed the boat out in making such a car. So that leaves us at 1,200kg, and probably 80% of the frontal area at best.
Ok, those are not terrible figures, but they are nothing like the gains the Spurting sees from its non-road legal, single seat and no toys position.......
Pommy said:
Complaining about EV's and the Goodwood Hill run seems a bit silly given that literally was the most exciting hill run ever seen
Too add to that.Goodwood is very supportive of Green power. Which is a build your own electric race car challenge charity aimed at schools (though there is a 'work' class aimed at apprentices and early years careers). Promoting STEM, British innovation, manufacturing etc, all sorts of good things.
EV is at here to stay (till the next step change at least)
Max_Torque said:
Sway said:
Yes, this one only has one seat, etc. - but there's a middle ground that's being completely ignored.
The "middle ground" is currently ignored because there is no serious volume there!Once the OEs have their drivetrains developed and paid for by the mass market models, the niches will appear.
The problem is that the middle ground is compromise city.
Realistically, fore/rear seating has never been made to work (compared to side-by-side) so your narrowness isn't possible, and once you have a car that meets all the necessary road regulation you end up with a certain mass.
I've looked closely at my i3 with regard to how much smaller / lighter a two seat sports car based on the same battery/subframes could be, and really the answer is "not much" unfortunately, especially with the i3 door arrangement than already means there is no heavy/bulky B pillar. The doors are already composite/plastic, the seats pretty thin and light weight. I'd take a decent guess at there being a maximum of 100kg of mass saving if you REALLY pushed the boat out in making such a car. So that leaves us at 1,200kg, and probably 80% of the frontal area at best.
Ok, those are not terrible figures, but they are nothing like the gains the Spurting sees from its non-road legal, single seat and no toys position.......
You look at these things purely from an objective perspective. That's OK, and means you're very happy with your i3 (and still ignore that it's the only one close to the principle on the market - it simply shouldn't be 'niche' to focus on light weight).
Whereas I don't. I don't care that you get four seats/doors essentially for 'free' from a performance perspective. I don't care that the objective benefits of making it a two seater with a lower roofline and less practically designed body shape are small.
The subjective benefits are huge. I simply do not want a 'fun' car that looks like a tall, skinny, shopping hatchback.
The i3 might be an incredible drive - but it leaves me completely cold almost solely down to the looks/format. It's pretty much the ugliest hatchback on the market with horrifically awkward proportions which it gets away with from a dynamics perspective due to having the skateboard of batteries lowering it's CoG. That's about the last thing I want for a fun commuter (where it's me and a bag) or weekend fun car.
Discombobulate said:
Pommy said:
Complaining about EV's and the Goodwood Hill run seems a bit silly given that literally was the most exciting hill run ever seen
Sums it up.Minds blown. Gasps and cheers. Whether on TV or live at the event.
THE spectacle of the event whatever you think of EVs.
We might as well have a competition comparing the noises made by microwave ovens, or power drills.
EVs are clearly the future, but it seems to be a bit soul less, in the same way as asking people what they find most soul stirring. The sight, smell, and sounds of a steam locomotive, or an electric rail car?
Pan Pan Pan said:
Discombobulate said:
Pommy said:
Complaining about EV's and the Goodwood Hill run seems a bit silly given that literally was the most exciting hill run ever seen
Sums it up.Minds blown. Gasps and cheers. Whether on TV or live at the event.
THE spectacle of the event whatever you think of EVs.
We might as well have a competition comparing the noises made by microwave ovens, or power drills.
EVs are clearly the future, but it seems to be a bit soul less, in the same way as asking people what they find most soul stirring. The sight, smell, and sounds of a steam locomotive, or an electric rail car?
Pan Pan Pan said:
To be as objective as possible, Yes, it could quite easily be the most exciting hill run ever seen, But heard?, Absolutely not..
We might as well have a competition comparing the noises made by microwave ovens, or power drills.
EVs are clearly the future, but it seems to be a bit soul less, in the same way as asking people what they find most soul stirring. The sight, smell, and sounds of a steam locomotive, or an electric rail car?
That's quite literally the opposite of "objective".We might as well have a competition comparing the noises made by microwave ovens, or power drills.
EVs are clearly the future, but it seems to be a bit soul less, in the same way as asking people what they find most soul stirring. The sight, smell, and sounds of a steam locomotive, or an electric rail car?
Perhaps FOS need to look at introducing a class system, including bikes... then the EV’s can then play on their own.
It would have the overall Hill record, but others would have the distinction of achieving the record in their class.
A bit old fashioned I know, but surely that is the spirit of Goodwood.
It would have the overall Hill record, but others would have the distinction of achieving the record in their class.
A bit old fashioned I know, but surely that is the spirit of Goodwood.
Edited by Milkyway on Thursday 30th June 13:07
Milkyway said:
Perhaps FOS need to look at introducing a class system, including bikes... then the EV’s can then play on their own.
It would have the overall Hill record, but others would have the distinction of achieving the record in their class.
A bit old fashioned I know, but surely that is the spirit of Goodwood.
They don't need to. It's not really a competitive hillclimb, and there are no 'fair' categories.It would have the overall Hill record, but others would have the distinction of achieving the record in their class.
A bit old fashioned I know, but surely that is the spirit of Goodwood.
Edited by Milkyway on Thursday 30th June 13:07
In a way, it's like Revival. There's a pretence of a fair grid in the classes, the reality even at face value demonstrates the lie there with several years development between the cars.
That's ignoring some of the 'post period' development in certain classes/cars. I'm pretty sure sticking a D-Type engine was never allowed in a Mk7 Jag in period - yet that's what Rowan Atkinson's car is running...
big_rob_sydney said:
Pan Pan Pan said:
Discombobulate said:
Pommy said:
Complaining about EV's and the Goodwood Hill run seems a bit silly given that literally was the most exciting hill run ever seen
Sums it up.Minds blown. Gasps and cheers. Whether on TV or live at the event.
THE spectacle of the event whatever you think of EVs.
We might as well have a competition comparing the noises made by microwave ovens, or power drills.
EVs are clearly the future, but it seems to be a bit soul less, in the same way as asking people what they find most soul stirring. The sight, smell, and sounds of a steam locomotive, or an electric rail car?
Sandpit Steve said:
Chris Harris did a back-to-back with the McLaren Senna and the 650s GT3 at Silverstone, recording 2:09 and 2:03 respectively on a one-lap shootout.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-kK2cWDcWU
What’s faster than the Senna and has type approval, 991 GT2 RS MR maybe?
If they can get the McMurty well under two minutes on road-legal tyres, that in itself would be mighty impressive - even if it’s unlikely to be produced for the road with the big fans underneath!
For reference, the Formula 2 lap record at Silverstone is 1:38.
Didnt an F2 car go up the hill and was like 45 seconds ?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-kK2cWDcWU
What’s faster than the Senna and has type approval, 991 GT2 RS MR maybe?
If they can get the McMurty well under two minutes on road-legal tyres, that in itself would be mighty impressive - even if it’s unlikely to be produced for the road with the big fans underneath!
For reference, the Formula 2 lap record at Silverstone is 1:38.
Edit, found it,
https://youtu.be/L6YJi9ul_pY?t=441
45.64 seconds
Quite a bit slower, looked fairly brisk to be fai but not comically so like the McMurtry, which is the only car that warrants being overdubbed with the Benny Hill music
That Subaru was cool with its funny aero stuff, which put me in mind of the Dilophosaurus in Jurassic Park, the little ones with the frilly thing on its neck that comes out before they shred the fat fella in the Jeep.
Sway said:
I'm not looking for the 'gains' the McMurtry achieves.
You look at these things purely from an objective perspective. That's OK, and means you're very happy with your i3 (and still ignore that it's the only one close to the principle on the market - it simply shouldn't be 'niche' to focus on light weight).
Whereas I don't. I don't care that you get four seats/doors essentially for 'free' from a performance perspective. I don't care that the objective benefits of making it a two seater with a lower roofline and less practically designed body shape are small.
The subjective benefits are huge. I simply do not want a 'fun' car that looks like a tall, skinny, shopping hatchback.
The i3 might be an incredible drive - but it leaves me completely cold almost solely down to the looks/format. It's pretty much the ugliest hatchback on the market with horrifically awkward proportions which it gets away with from a dynamics perspective due to having the skateboard of batteries lowering it's CoG. That's about the last thing I want for a fun commuter (where it's me and a bag) or weekend fun car.
Then you'll need to wait until the technology moves on and there is enough of a market for such a car that manufacturers are interested in providing it? ICE options will be available for a long time yet and how many manufacturers focus on light weight?You look at these things purely from an objective perspective. That's OK, and means you're very happy with your i3 (and still ignore that it's the only one close to the principle on the market - it simply shouldn't be 'niche' to focus on light weight).
Whereas I don't. I don't care that you get four seats/doors essentially for 'free' from a performance perspective. I don't care that the objective benefits of making it a two seater with a lower roofline and less practically designed body shape are small.
The subjective benefits are huge. I simply do not want a 'fun' car that looks like a tall, skinny, shopping hatchback.
The i3 might be an incredible drive - but it leaves me completely cold almost solely down to the looks/format. It's pretty much the ugliest hatchback on the market with horrifically awkward proportions which it gets away with from a dynamics perspective due to having the skateboard of batteries lowering it's CoG. That's about the last thing I want for a fun commuter (where it's me and a bag) or weekend fun car.
Still very early days in the world of EV's and as with charging I'm not sure why everyone seems to expect to get everything immediately as surely common sense will tell you that's not the way things work. When mobile phones first appeared I imagine people similarly complained that they were useless as far too big and expensive, reception was lousy due to poor infrastructure and the battery only lasted 20 minutes.
In under a decade we went from this
to this
Edited by SWoll on Thursday 30th June 14:05
SWoll said:
Sway said:
I'm not looking for the 'gains' the McMurtry achieves.
You look at these things purely from an objective perspective. That's OK, and means you're very happy with your i3 (and still ignore that it's the only one close to the principle on the market - it simply shouldn't be 'niche' to focus on light weight).
Whereas I don't. I don't care that you get four seats/doors essentially for 'free' from a performance perspective. I don't care that the objective benefits of making it a two seater with a lower roofline and less practically designed body shape are small.
The subjective benefits are huge. I simply do not want a 'fun' car that looks like a tall, skinny, shopping hatchback.
The i3 might be an incredible drive - but it leaves me completely cold almost solely down to the looks/format. It's pretty much the ugliest hatchback on the market with horrifically awkward proportions which it gets away with from a dynamics perspective due to having the skateboard of batteries lowering it's CoG. That's about the last thing I want for a fun commuter (where it's me and a bag) or weekend fun car.
Then you'll need to wait until the technology moves on and there is enough of a market for such a car that manufacturers are interested in providing it? ICE options will be available for a long time yet and how many manufacturers focus on light weight?You look at these things purely from an objective perspective. That's OK, and means you're very happy with your i3 (and still ignore that it's the only one close to the principle on the market - it simply shouldn't be 'niche' to focus on light weight).
Whereas I don't. I don't care that you get four seats/doors essentially for 'free' from a performance perspective. I don't care that the objective benefits of making it a two seater with a lower roofline and less practically designed body shape are small.
The subjective benefits are huge. I simply do not want a 'fun' car that looks like a tall, skinny, shopping hatchback.
The i3 might be an incredible drive - but it leaves me completely cold almost solely down to the looks/format. It's pretty much the ugliest hatchback on the market with horrifically awkward proportions which it gets away with from a dynamics perspective due to having the skateboard of batteries lowering it's CoG. That's about the last thing I want for a fun commuter (where it's me and a bag) or weekend fun car.
Still very early days in the world of EV's and as with charging I'm not sure why everyone seems to expect to get everything immediately as surely common sense will tell you that's not the way things work. When mobile phones first appeared I imagine people similarly complained that they were useless as far too big and expensive, reception was lousy due to poor infrastructure and the battery only lasted 20 minutes.
In under a decade we went from this
to this
Edited by SWoll on Thursday 30th June 14:05
If Max is to be believed (and I don't doubt him) - technically everything I'd like is already available in the i3.
I just want it in a sexy, appealing and impractical body...
Sway said:
I don't need to wait, and I don't need a tonne of novel development.
If Max is to be believed (and I don't doubt him) - technically everything I'd like is already available in the i3.
I just want it in a sexy, appealing and impractical body...
Are you sure you wouldn’t rather have a lovely SUV or crossover? That’s what the market research and focus groups have established that you should want.If Max is to be believed (and I don't doubt him) - technically everything I'd like is already available in the i3.
I just want it in a sexy, appealing and impractical body...
If the i3 could fly to the moon and back in 10 minutes...I still wouldn't want one, and it is the same for me with this too. Speed isn't everything(and that is difficult for me to say to be fair), but I would genuinely rather walk than have an electric car of any kind in all honesty.
What upsets me the most though, is that we are on a site for petrolheads(or at least it is called PistonHeads), yet it seems to be almost totally dominated now with electric cars sadly.
What upsets me the most though, is that we are on a site for petrolheads(or at least it is called PistonHeads), yet it seems to be almost totally dominated now with electric cars sadly.
big_rob_sydney said:
Just while you're on the point o sound, there are plenty of ICE vehicles that are obnoxiously loud. And you can hear them reverberating through your sense of calm, trespassing on your peace and quiet. Why they feel they can selfishly inflict their noise on others is a mystery to me.
Because the drivers don't care about you.They are having too much fun.
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