RE: The best used electric cars to buy right now
Discussion
Earthdweller said:
I’d imagine it will look a bit different in the middle of winter when everyone’s heating and lights are on and daylight hours are massively reduced
And we've got nearly 20GW of wind blowing through...There are huge issues with renewables regarding how we balance their increased usage against thermal and nuclear generation, and how/if we can scale storage to suitable levels.
But you can't ignore the huge strides that have been taken in renewable generation with much more in the development pipeline.
Maybe even get over the 20GW wind generation milestone by next spring.
DodgyGeezer said:
and there we have the bellend going at it. I am considering an EV for Mrs DG's next - however being associated with twunts who are virtually vegan in their desire to convert and show that they are right... sigh. Some people really do not make things easy
Given your very eloquent response, I assume you worked in an automotive sales role?What a very lucky woman your wife is. I bet she really misses you whilst you spend most of your retirement on your computer sharing your considerable life experience with those less enlightened than yourself.
Edited by Fastlane on Wednesday 3rd August 17:29
Fastlane said:
DodgyGeezer said:
and there we have the bellend going at it. I am considering an EV for Mrs DG's next - however being associated with twunts who are virtually vegan in their desire to convert and show that they are right... sigh. Some people really do not make things easy
Given your very eloquent response, I assume you worked in an automotive sales role?What a very lucky woman your wife is. I bet she really misses you whilst you spend most of your retirement on your computer sharing your considerable life experience with those less enlightened than yourself.
Edited by Fastlane on Wednesday 3rd August 17:29
Bryans69 said:
DodgyGeezer said:
GT9 said:
Given we only have 2% of the world's car population, all we can really do is to set a good example on the world stage.
There are two countries in the world where nearly half of all cars reside, so unless the collective choices there follow suit AND those countries invest heavily in decreasing their dependency on fossil fuels for electricity....
the thing is though that to listen to people you'd think that cars are THE 'big bad' with regard to climate change as opposed to a factor - putting my tinfoil hat on I do think that the car is despised by the marxist types and governments alike because it allows 'the plebs' freedom of movement with little to no control.There are two countries in the world where nearly half of all cars reside, so unless the collective choices there follow suit AND those countries invest heavily in decreasing their dependency on fossil fuels for electricity....
tFor reference, passenger cars contribute to about 10% of the world's carbon footprint.
UK has about 2% of the cars in the world making their contribution about 0.2% to the overall footprint.
It's understandable why some will say it's just not worth doing is you only consider the direct effect.
Charlie_1 said:
Well he has a point you EV boys are quite evangelical and totally convinced that they are are the answer to every ill in the world and how dare anyone say otherwise or be critical
'EV boys' are quite often also 'Aston boys', 'Ferrari boys' etc. Many of us have multiple cars, so find it odd to be grouped as only EV owners.GT9 said:
Note that average demand has fallen by 7 GW over the last 10 years.
That's enough power to keep 25 million EVs charged.
And there we were panicking that the grid can't cope....
It won't be able to cope. The uptake of EVs will outpace our ability to construct reliable (ie not solar or wind) generation.That's enough power to keep 25 million EVs charged.
And there we were panicking that the grid can't cope....
There was an uptick in demand of 4.5 Terrawatt hours between 2020 and 21.
I guess there'll be another 21 to 22.
NDA said:
Charlie_1 said:
Well he has a point you EV boys are quite evangelical and totally convinced that they are are the answer to every ill in the world and how dare anyone say otherwise or be critical
'EV boys' are quite often also 'Aston boys', 'Ferrari boys' etc. Many of us have multiple cars, so find it odd to be grouped as only EV owners.Cobnapint said:
It won't be able to cope. The uptake of EVs will outpace our ability to construct reliable (ie not solar or wind) generation.
There was an uptick in demand of 4.5 Terrawatt hours between 2020 and 21.
I guess there'll be another 21 to 22.
If wind power is so unreliable, why is it able to meet 25% of the current demand?There was an uptick in demand of 4.5 Terrawatt hours between 2020 and 21.
I guess there'll be another 21 to 22.
Relatively speaking, we have a very extensive coastline.
Is there not a point where enough offshore turbines distributed along it can satisfy you as being 'reliable'?
And regarding the uptick, this was bouncing back from the downtick of Covid, so I think you should ignore both.
As for EVs, 1 million cars will require less than 3 TWh or a 1% increase in demand.
Are you really thinking that sort of annual growth will cripple us?
Charlie_1 said:
NDA said:
Charlie_1 said:
Well he has a point you EV boys are quite evangelical and totally convinced that they are are the answer to every ill in the world and how dare anyone say otherwise or be critical
'EV boys' are quite often also 'Aston boys', 'Ferrari boys' etc. Many of us have multiple cars, so find it odd to be grouped as only EV owners.Charlie_1 said:
NDA said:
Charlie_1 said:
Well he has a point you EV boys are quite evangelical and totally convinced that they are are the answer to every ill in the world and how dare anyone say otherwise or be critical
'EV boys' are quite often also 'Aston boys', 'Ferrari boys' etc. Many of us have multiple cars, so find it odd to be grouped as only EV owners.So actually you don’t have to do anything really, or disagree or agree. Doesn’t really matter. The market and policies will sort the rest out.
GT9 said:
Cobnapint said:
It won't be able to cope. The uptake of EVs will outpace our ability to construct reliable (ie not solar or wind) generation.
There was an uptick in demand of 4.5 Terrawatt hours between 2020 and 21.
I guess there'll be another 21 to 22.
If wind power is so unreliable, why is it able to meet 25% of the current demand?There was an uptick in demand of 4.5 Terrawatt hours between 2020 and 21.
I guess there'll be another 21 to 22.
Relatively speaking, we have a very extensive coastline.
Is there not a point where enough offshore turbines distributed along it can satisfy you as being 'reliable'?
And regarding the uptick, this was bouncing back from the downtick of Covid, so I think you should ignore both.
As for EVs, 1 million cars will require less than 3 TWh or a 1% increase in demand.
Are you really thinking that sort of annual growth will cripple us?
Some of the time is no good if you want to run a modern economy, particularly one that'll be damn near full EV in 20 years time (plus lot's more houses with lots more EVs by then).
I’ve only skim read some of the comments, but there seems to be some pretty sensationalist stuff.
Newsflash, caring for the environment doesn’t mean buying a new shiny EV, you’re just caring for your consumer habits. I’m not here to argue against electric, but I’m also not convinced buying more stuff more often is the answer - subsidising >2 ton EV SUVs that will be replaced every 3-years certainly isn’t.
If people really cared about the environment you wouldn’t be driving around in the latest Tesla, you would be cycling your kids to school and campaigning for a for better cycle networks across U.K. suburbia. Instead the majority of U.K. residents insist on using their cars for the shortest of journeys.
What this article has reinforced is how ridiculously expensive EVs are. As a cash buyer, with the family car doing relatively low miles, but also used for some longer journeys, an EV is a total non starter. If my company had a half decent salary sacrifice scheme it might be another story.
Despite a relatively healthy disposable income, there’s no way I could spend 50-60k on a dull family wagon. Obviously I’m just stubborn. My Ebike will have to make do for the time being…
Newsflash, caring for the environment doesn’t mean buying a new shiny EV, you’re just caring for your consumer habits. I’m not here to argue against electric, but I’m also not convinced buying more stuff more often is the answer - subsidising >2 ton EV SUVs that will be replaced every 3-years certainly isn’t.
If people really cared about the environment you wouldn’t be driving around in the latest Tesla, you would be cycling your kids to school and campaigning for a for better cycle networks across U.K. suburbia. Instead the majority of U.K. residents insist on using their cars for the shortest of journeys.
What this article has reinforced is how ridiculously expensive EVs are. As a cash buyer, with the family car doing relatively low miles, but also used for some longer journeys, an EV is a total non starter. If my company had a half decent salary sacrifice scheme it might be another story.
Despite a relatively healthy disposable income, there’s no way I could spend 50-60k on a dull family wagon. Obviously I’m just stubborn. My Ebike will have to make do for the time being…
Edited by JAMSXR on Wednesday 3rd August 20:24
GT9 said:
Maccmike8 said:
Erm 50% of electricity production is from burning coal and natural gas. I can teach it to you but I cant understand it for you. Numpty.
Stop being a dick. You said coal. Coal is not the same as natural gas.In any case, what difference does it make if only 0.5% of the UK's electricity is currently being consumed by EVs.
If/when ever get to the point where a substantial proportion of electricity is being consumed by EVs, then there is a high probability that will coincide with a much higher proportion of renewables.
And if is stays at 50% renewables forever , then the carbon footprint numbers are still in favour of EVs anyway, maybe have a go at reading the 60 page 2021 Ricardo report I linked to.
From the company that produces plenty of high-end engines, including for Mclaren...
t hes added natural gas now, damn hes got us there!''I dont mind electric cars, each to their own, I mind ignoramuses that drive them that believe they are green and good for the environment. Its absolutely laughable. The lack of self awareness makes those the dicks?
Charlie_1 said:
Well he has a point you EV boys are quite evangelical and totally convinced that they are are the answer to every ill in the world and how dare anyone say otherwise or be critical
I'm just a car enthusiastic, not an "EV boy" and as such appreciate all types of cars (my other car is an Ariel Atom) and don't feel threatened by what fuels my cars or for that matter, yours.However, like a lot of engineers in the automotive world who are actually involved in designing cars for a living (many of whom seem to patiently post their actual experiences on here) the future is undoubtedly challenging.
However, with challenge, generally comes innovation. We are pretty early on in the electrification of transport and I believe we are currently living through the genesis of the car and transport in general.
For those willing to embrace the change, I believe the future is exciting.
Edited by Fastlane on Wednesday 3rd August 19:44
Edited by Fastlane on Wednesday 3rd August 20:00
Maccmike8 said:
Coal/natural gas. Whats the difference? Theyre both bad for the environment, no? Just because my addition to a comment doesnt suit you doesnt make me a dick. Say this in a crybaby voice (thats you) ''Coal doesnt power power stations that run my ever so green electric car, Im going to save the world. Oh st hes added natural gas now, damn hes got us there!''
I dont mind electric cars, each to their own, I mind ignoramuses that drive them that believe they are green and good for the environment. Its absolutely laughable. The lack of self awareness makes those the dicks?
Natural gas produces half the CO2 of coal, the rest is renewable. Then the car is much more efficient. The net lifetime impact is 60% lower CO2. You either not able to understand the data or you haven’t read it. Or you’re trolling. t hes added natural gas now, damn hes got us there!''I dont mind electric cars, each to their own, I mind ignoramuses that drive them that believe they are green and good for the environment. Its absolutely laughable. The lack of self awareness makes those the dicks?
Maccmike8 said:
Coal/natural gas. Whats the difference? Theyre both bad for the environment, no? Just because my addition to a comment doesnt suit you doesnt make me a dick. Say this in a crybaby voice (thats you) ''Coal doesnt power power stations that run my ever so green electric car, Im going to save the world. Oh st hes added natural gas now, damn hes got us there!''
I dont mind electric cars, each to their own, I mind ignoramuses that drive them that believe they are green and good for the environment. Its absolutely laughable. The lack of self awareness makes those the dicks?
Just to be clear, you don't mind electric cars, but you don't like the owners of them. Is that right?t hes added natural gas now, damn hes got us there!''I dont mind electric cars, each to their own, I mind ignoramuses that drive them that believe they are green and good for the environment. Its absolutely laughable. The lack of self awareness makes those the dicks?
Cobnapint said:
Wind can only meet that sort of demand SOME OF THE TIME.
Some of the time is no good if you want to run a modern economy, particularly one that'll be damn near full EV in 20 years time (plus lot's more houses with lots more EVs by then).
It's obvious that there are days when the wind doesn't blow in the existing locations. Increasing the numbers of turbines and distributing them more widely not only increases capacity but should also increase availability.Some of the time is no good if you want to run a modern economy, particularly one that'll be damn near full EV in 20 years time (plus lot's more houses with lots more EVs by then).
It's far from a perfect solution, and will require some form of support. That doesn't mean it's 'no good'. I really don't think the planet cares if carbon is distributed over the whole year or in a few discrete hits.
Obviously net zero would require an alternative means of support, possibly green hydrogen import and/or storage, possibly nuclear, possibly solar or biofuels.
The National Grid have recently released the 2022 Future Energy Scenarios document. This is now 250 pages long and covers future energy scenarios in significant detail. The study looks at the entirety of energy consumption in the UK, including transportation, and how we might proceed towards net zero.
There are 4 different pathways towards 2050, the main differences between the four scenarios is the mix between natural gas, renewables and hydrogen, yet all of them assume we reach 30 million EVs, but along slightly different timelines.
Note also that hydrogen does not feature in any of the scenarios as a means of directly fuelling passenger cars.
See pages 68-72 for the passenger car section. https://www.nationalgrideso.com/document/263951/do...
What do you make of this document?
Which scenario do you consider most realistic, or have the missed a trick somewhere and there's a fifth scenario that you can shed some light on?
Maccmike8 said:
Coal/natural gas. Whats the difference? Theyre both bad for the environment, no? Just because my addition to a comment doesnt suit you doesnt make me a dick. Say this in a crybaby voice (thats you) ''Coal doesnt power power stations that run my ever so green electric car, Im going to save the world. Oh st hes added natural gas now, damn hes got us there!''
I dont mind electric cars, each to their own, I mind ignoramuses that drive them that believe they are green and good for the environment. Its absolutely laughable. The lack of self awareness makes those the dicks?
Sorry, I though just about everyone knew that coal is far worse environmentally than natural gas and that we hardly use any coal in the UK. t hes added natural gas now, damn hes got us there!''I dont mind electric cars, each to their own, I mind ignoramuses that drive them that believe they are green and good for the environment. Its absolutely laughable. The lack of self awareness makes those the dicks?
If you didn't know this, then I will retract the comment, but I'd also suggest that throwing around the ignoramus comment might not be such a good idea.
Coal is much worse, not just in terms of carbon, but also other harmful pollutants such as soot, nitrous oxides and sulphur.
Yes, we are currently dependent on natural gas. This is not a revelation.
The proportion of that dependency, and the much higher efficiency of natural gas fuelled engines in centralised power stations (compared to an ICE in a car) means that EVs already have a lower lifetime carbon footprint, by a factor of 2. Today. Even with the natural gas taken into account.
Additionally, centralised natural gas generation to charge EVs also removes car tailpipe emissions from urban environments, so goes a long way towards improving urban air quality.
I've already linked to the 60 page Ricardo Engineering study from last year that shows in extensive detail how the carbon footprint for UK EVs is calculated (taking the natural gas into account). Maybe read the study and then point out where their incorrect assumptions are if you think the statement above is wrong.
The study also shows the EVs can achieve a fivefold reduction in lifetime footprint if all electricity used to manufacture and charge them is renewable. There would have to be some sort of monumental error in the report (there isn't btw) for it not to be conclusive that EVs are in fact better on carbon footprint both today, and many time better in there future (when it actually matters).
BTW, I don't own an EV but I have worked in a senior engineering position in this field since the last millennium, which is why I might come across as "having an answer for everything", as another poster put it.
Fastlane said:
Charlie_1 said:
Well he has a point you EV boys are quite evangelical and totally convinced that they are are the answer to every ill in the world and how dare anyone say otherwise or be critical
I'm just a car enthusiastic, not an "EV boy" and as such appreciate all types of cars (my other car is an Ariel Atom) and don't feel threatened by what fuels my cars or for that matter, yours.However, like a lot of engineers in the automotive world who are actually involved in designing cars for a living (many of whom seem to patiently post their actual experiences on here) the future is undoubtedly challenging.
However, with challenge, generally comes innovation. We are pretty early on in the electrification of transport and I believe we are currently living through the genesis of the car and transport in general.
For those willing to embrace the change, I believe the future is exciting.
Edited by Fastlane on Wednesday 3rd August 19:44
Edited by Fastlane on Wednesday 3rd August 20:00
Fastlane said:
Maccmike8 said:
Coal/natural gas. Whats the difference? Theyre both bad for the environment, no? Just because my addition to a comment doesnt suit you doesnt make me a dick. Say this in a crybaby voice (thats you) ''Coal doesnt power power stations that run my ever so green electric car, Im going to save the world. Oh st hes added natural gas now, damn hes got us there!''
I dont mind electric cars, each to their own, I mind ignoramuses that drive them that believe they are green and good for the environment. Its absolutely laughable. The lack of self awareness makes those the dicks?
Just to be clear, you don't mind electric cars, but you don't like the owners of them. Is that right?t hes added natural gas now, damn hes got us there!''I dont mind electric cars, each to their own, I mind ignoramuses that drive them that believe they are green and good for the environment. Its absolutely laughable. The lack of self awareness makes those the dicks?
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