RE: The best used electric cars to buy right now
Discussion
Cobnapint said:
Wind can only meet that sort of demand SOME OF THE TIME.
Some of the time is no good if you want to run a modern economy, particularly one that'll be damn near full EV in 20 years time (plus lot's more houses with lots more EVs by then).
Indeed- planning permission for a housing estate near london was recently declined due to fact national grid can’t supply electricity volumes required as there is a data centre nearby. Current system is not infallible.Some of the time is no good if you want to run a modern economy, particularly one that'll be damn near full EV in 20 years time (plus lot's more houses with lots more EVs by then).
Anyway, back on article Porsche or Audi e-tron GTRS is what I’d go for.
Charlie_1 said:
Fastlane said:
Maccmike8 said:
Coal/natural gas. Whats the difference? Theyre both bad for the environment, no? Just because my addition to a comment doesnt suit you doesnt make me a dick. Say this in a crybaby voice (thats you) ''Coal doesnt power power stations that run my ever so green electric car, Im going to save the world. Oh s
t hes added natural gas now, damn hes got us there!''
I dont mind electric cars, each to their own, I mind ignoramuses that drive them that believe they are green and good for the environment. Its absolutely laughable. The lack of self awareness makes those the dicks?
Just to be clear, you don't mind electric cars, but you don't like the owners of them. Is that right?t hes added natural gas now, damn hes got us there!''I dont mind electric cars, each to their own, I mind ignoramuses that drive them that believe they are green and good for the environment. Its absolutely laughable. The lack of self awareness makes those the dicks?
JAMSXR said:
Newsflash, caring for the environment doesn’t mean buying a new shiny EV, you’re just caring for your consumer habits. I’m not here to argue against electric, but I’m also not convinced buying more stuff more often is the answer - subsidising >2 ton EV SUVs that will be replaced every 3-years certainly isn’t.
New car sales are not on the increase, so we are not actually buying more new stuff, as far as cars are concerned.The point about 'replacing after three years' comes up time and time again, and so many people assume this is a bad thing.
And so I'll say it again.
The planet does not care how many times a car changes hands in its lifetime.
Every time someone chops in for a new car, there are 4 or 5 people buying a second hand car.
Which suggests that the used car market is 4 times larger than the new car market, which it is.
And broadly speaking, new car sales match 'retirements' at the opposite end of the market.
It's no surprise then that the average car is on the road for 14-15 years, during which time it will change hands, on average 4-5 times.
Even if it's the same people changing cars every three years, the number of new cars being produced hasn't changed, and the total number of cars on the road hasn't changed.
Therefore the total carbon footprint doesn't change.
Whether someone keeps a car for its entire life or buys a new car every three years, IT DOESN'T MATTER.
D4rez said:
Charlie_1 said:
Fastlane said:
Maccmike8 said:
Coal/natural gas. Whats the difference? Theyre both bad for the environment, no? Just because my addition to a comment doesnt suit you doesnt make me a dick. Say this in a crybaby voice (thats you) ''Coal doesnt power power stations that run my ever so green electric car, Im going to save the world. Oh st hes added natural gas now, damn hes got us there!''
I dont mind electric cars, each to their own, I mind ignoramuses that drive them that believe they are green and good for the environment. Its absolutely laughable. The lack of self awareness makes those the dicks?
Just to be clear, you don't mind electric cars, but you don't like the owners of them. Is that right?t hes added natural gas now, damn hes got us there!''I dont mind electric cars, each to their own, I mind ignoramuses that drive them that believe they are green and good for the environment. Its absolutely laughable. The lack of self awareness makes those the dicks?
GT9 said:
New car sales are not on the increase, so we are not actually buying more new stuff, as far as cars are concerned.
The point about 'replacing after three years' comes up time and time again, and so many people assume this is a bad thing.
And so I'll say it again.
The planet does not care how many times a car changes hands in its lifetime.
Every time someone chops in for a new car, there are 4 or 5 people buying a second hand car.
Which suggests that the used car market is 4 times larger than the new car market, which it is.
And broadly speaking, new car sales match 'retirements' at the opposite end of the market.
It's no surprise then that the average car is on the road for 14-15 years, during which time it will change hands, on average 4-5 times.
Even if it's the same people changing cars every three years, the number of new cars being produced hasn't changed, and the total number of cars on the road hasn't changed.
Therefore the total carbon footprint doesn't change.
Whether someone keeps a car for its entire life or buys a new car every three years, IT DOESN'T MATTER.
It does actually, the person keeping the car it’s entire life will have less of an impact on the environment, but never mind that. If more people adopted that mentality, well, you work it out. The point about 'replacing after three years' comes up time and time again, and so many people assume this is a bad thing.
And so I'll say it again.
The planet does not care how many times a car changes hands in its lifetime.
Every time someone chops in for a new car, there are 4 or 5 people buying a second hand car.
Which suggests that the used car market is 4 times larger than the new car market, which it is.
And broadly speaking, new car sales match 'retirements' at the opposite end of the market.
It's no surprise then that the average car is on the road for 14-15 years, during which time it will change hands, on average 4-5 times.
Even if it's the same people changing cars every three years, the number of new cars being produced hasn't changed, and the total number of cars on the road hasn't changed.
Therefore the total carbon footprint doesn't change.
Whether someone keeps a car for its entire life or buys a new car every three years, IT DOESN'T MATTER.
My point that I go on to make in my previous post, is that, in my view, there are better ways to reduce our environmental impact other than incentivising the public to buy more stuff.
Condemning anyone (I’m not sure you are) running an ICE over and EV is ridiculous.
Charlie_1 said:
D4rez said:
Charlie_1 said:
Fastlane said:
Maccmike8 said:
Coal/natural gas. Whats the difference? Theyre both bad for the environment, no? Just because my addition to a comment doesnt suit you doesnt make me a dick. Say this in a crybaby voice (thats you) ''Coal doesnt power power stations that run my ever so green electric car, Im going to save the world. Oh st hes added natural gas now, damn hes got us there!''
I dont mind electric cars, each to their own, I mind ignoramuses that drive them that believe they are green and good for the environment. Its absolutely laughable. The lack of self awareness makes those the dicks?
Just to be clear, you don't mind electric cars, but you don't like the owners of them. Is that right?t hes added natural gas now, damn hes got us there!''I dont mind electric cars, each to their own, I mind ignoramuses that drive them that believe they are green and good for the environment. Its absolutely laughable. The lack of self awareness makes those the dicks?
D4rez said:
Charlie_1 said:
D4rez said:
Charlie_1 said:
Fastlane said:
Maccmike8 said:
Coal/natural gas. Whats the difference? Theyre both bad for the environment, no? Just because my addition to a comment doesnt suit you doesnt make me a dick. Say this in a crybaby voice (thats you) ''Coal doesnt power power stations that run my ever so green electric car, Im going to save the world. Oh st hes added natural gas now, damn hes got us there!''
I dont mind electric cars, each to their own, I mind ignoramuses that drive them that believe they are green and good for the environment. Its absolutely laughable. The lack of self awareness makes those the dicks?
Just to be clear, you don't mind electric cars, but you don't like the owners of them. Is that right?t hes added natural gas now, damn hes got us there!''I dont mind electric cars, each to their own, I mind ignoramuses that drive them that believe they are green and good for the environment. Its absolutely laughable. The lack of self awareness makes those the dicks?
JAMSXR said:
It does actually, the person keeping the car it’s entire life will have less of an impact on the environment, but never mind that. If more people adopted that mentality, well, you work it out.
My point that I go on to make in my previous post, is that, in my view, there are better ways to reduce our environmental impact other than incentivising the public to buy more stuff.
Condemning anyone (I’m not sure you are) running an ICE over and EV is ridiculous.
I have worked it out and so have all of the professionals around me.My point that I go on to make in my previous post, is that, in my view, there are better ways to reduce our environmental impact other than incentivising the public to buy more stuff.
Condemning anyone (I’m not sure you are) running an ICE over and EV is ridiculous.
In fact I worked it out 20 years ago.
It's a zero sum game.
YOUR ANNUAL SCENARIO:
Everyone keeps a car for 15 years, they will then have to buy new every 15 years as there are no used cars at all.
30 million cars on the road, on average 2 million cars a year will have to be bought new.
And on average, 2 million will be scrapped.
Total annual mileage 250 billion.
ACTUAL ANNUAL SCENARIO:
2 million car bought new.
2 million cars bought at 3 years old.
2 million cars bought at 6 years old.
2 million cars bought at 9 years old.
2 million cars bought at 12 years old.
2 million cars scrapped at 15 years old.
Total annual mileage 250 billion.
Essentially identical carbon footprints.....
And no I'm not condemning anyone.
But if you are buying a new car today, a new 2 ton SUV EV will do less harm over its subsequent 15 year life than buying a new ICE Golf.
The only way you can change the total footprint of all the cars on the road in a future scenario is to influence new car choice today.
Once the first buyer has chosen the car type, the subsequent used car buyers, for the entire life of the car, cannot undo that choice.
I get that what I'm saying might seem counter-intuitive to some, but I can assure you that it's correct.
The fact that many people will be unable to grasp this explains exactly why new car buyer behaviour needs to be enforced by legislation.
Charlie_1 said:
D4rez said:
Charlie_1 said:
D4rez said:
Charlie_1 said:
Fastlane said:
Maccmike8 said:
Coal/natural gas. Whats the difference? Theyre both bad for the environment, no? Just because my addition to a comment doesnt suit you doesnt make me a dick. Say this in a crybaby voice (thats you) ''Coal doesnt power power stations that run my ever so green electric car, Im going to save the world. Oh st hes added natural gas now, damn hes got us there!''
I dont mind electric cars, each to their own, I mind ignoramuses that drive them that believe they are green and good for the environment. Its absolutely laughable. The lack of self awareness makes those the dicks?
Just to be clear, you don't mind electric cars, but you don't like the owners of them. Is that right?t hes added natural gas now, damn hes got us there!''I dont mind electric cars, each to their own, I mind ignoramuses that drive them that believe they are green and good for the environment. Its absolutely laughable. The lack of self awareness makes those the dicks?
1) No-one is claiming EV's will save the planet, but they can reduce, by a small amount, the damage we are doing. And that's before we look at local air quality.
2) You clearly have no idea what scientists do, or science is.
GT9 said:
JAMSXR said:
It does actually, the person keeping the car it’s entire life will have less of an impact on the environment, but never mind that. If more people adopted that mentality, well, you work it out.
My point that I go on to make in my previous post, is that, in my view, there are better ways to reduce our environmental impact other than incentivising the public to buy more stuff.
Condemning anyone (I’m not sure you are) running an ICE over and EV is ridiculous.
I have worked it out and so have all of the professionals around me.My point that I go on to make in my previous post, is that, in my view, there are better ways to reduce our environmental impact other than incentivising the public to buy more stuff.
Condemning anyone (I’m not sure you are) running an ICE over and EV is ridiculous.
In fact I worked it out 20 years ago.
It's a zero sum game.
YOUR ANNUAL SCENARIO:
Everyone keeps a car for 15 years, they will then have to buy new every 15 years as there are no used cars at all.
30 million cars on the road, on average 2 million cars a year will have to be bought new.
And on average, 2 million will be scrapped.
Total annual mileage 250 billion.
ACTUAL ANNUAL SCENARIO:
2 million car bought new.
2 million cars bought at 3 years old.
2 million cars bought at 6 years old.
2 million cars bought at 9 years old.
2 million cars bought at 12 years old.
2 million cars scrapped at 15 years old.
Total annual mileage 250 billion.
Essentially identical carbon footprints.....
And no I'm not condemning anyone.
But if you are buying a new car today, a new 2 ton SUV EV will do less harm over its subsequent 15 year life than buying a new ICE Golf.
The only way you can change the total footprint of all the cars on the road in a future scenario is to influence new car choice today.
Once the first buyer has chosen the car type, the subsequent used car buyers, for the entire life of the car, cannot undo that choice.
I get that what I'm saying might seem counter-intuitive to some, but I can assure you that it's correct.
The fact that many people will be unable to grasp this explains exactly why new car buyer behaviour needs to be enforced by legislation.
My point still stands, if we all look after our stuff a little better and make it last longer, it will have a bigger impact on the environment than throwing your money at something new that’s meant to solve a problem. Your churn rate above just assumes everything stays the same.
Edited by JAMSXR on Thursday 4th August 07:45
Bryans69 said:
Charlie_1 said:
D4rez said:
Charlie_1 said:
D4rez said:
Charlie_1 said:
Fastlane said:
Maccmike8 said:
Coal/natural gas. Whats the difference? Theyre both bad for the environment, no? Just because my addition to a comment doesnt suit you doesnt make me a dick. Say this in a crybaby voice (thats you) ''Coal doesnt power power stations that run my ever so green electric car, Im going to save the world. Oh st hes added natural gas now, damn hes got us there!''
I dont mind electric cars, each to their own, I mind ignoramuses that drive them that believe they are green and good for the environment. Its absolutely laughable. The lack of self awareness makes those the dicks?
Just to be clear, you don't mind electric cars, but you don't like the owners of them. Is that right?t hes added natural gas now, damn hes got us there!''I dont mind electric cars, each to their own, I mind ignoramuses that drive them that believe they are green and good for the environment. Its absolutely laughable. The lack of self awareness makes those the dicks?
1) No-one is claiming EV's will save the planet, but they can reduce, by a small amount, the damage we are doing. And that's before we look at local air quality.
2) You clearly have no idea what scientists do, or science is.
1) I politely pointed out that I dont think EVs are a good thing or least not any better than ICE and then got subjected to a torrent of abuse hence my current attitude , as regards the other stuff you think that I may not agree
2) Science I know I didnt enjoy it at school , however all the pro stuff I read / hear from scientists pretty much says because this has happened this will happen and although you EV boys like to present it as fact it really isnt , the last time I got involved in a discussion like this the poster a scientist apparently said when he presented a 'conclusion' the data had been thoroughly investigated and tested which I imagine is what you are alluding to , yes this may true but that is balanced I think by the fact those conclusions turn out to be incorrect sometimes
question what is it with you EV boys and scientists , its just a job title ,
Edited by Charlie_1 on Thursday 4th August 08:21
Edited by Charlie_1 on Thursday 4th August 08:22
Edited by Charlie_1 on Thursday 4th August 09:53
Edited by Charlie_1 on Thursday 4th August 09:54
JAMSXR said:
My point still stands, if we all look after our stuff a little better and make it last longer, it will have a bigger impact on the environment than throwing your money at something new that’s meant to solve a problem. Your churn rate above just assumes everything stays the same.
In order to make existing ICEs last longer by looking after them better, you would need to ‘throw money at them’. ICEs are complex machines that wear out. The reason they are scrapped or recycled after 15 years, on average, is because it is not economical to keep them going.It’s really got nothing to do with the behaviour of new car buyers at the other end of the market. In any case, the vast majority of the carbon footprint of an ICE is from operating them.
Which makes the attempt at keeping them going longer somewhat futile from a carbon perspective. If EVs didn’t exist, there would still be a case for replacing old with new when it is economically prudent to do do.
Whilst your point about excessive consumption is entirely correct in principle, when it comes to ICE cars, the uncomfortable truth is that unless we become less dependent on them, you cannot make a meaningful difference by making them last longer.
This is particularly uncomfortable for owners/buyers at the bottom end of the used car market who want to believe that they are doing the planet a favour by hanging onto old cars and that new car buyers are the bad boys.
The crux of the issue is that it’s the consumption of fossil fuel that is the root cause of the carbon problem, not the consumption of new cars.
If you want to reduce the carbon footprint of an ICE that is already in use, you either have to reduce your annual mileage and/or reduce your average speed.
Plenty of restrictions/changes to legislation is already happening to force this behaviour upon us. Forcing new car buyers to choose EVs over ICEs is just another step along that road.
As usual some very comprehensive comments showing that PHers in general are an intelligent bunch.
There is one small elephant in the room though- the UK is responsible for only 1% of world CO2, so in the great scheme of things is as about as worrying as the state of your ashtray in your Rolls Royce.
There is one small elephant in the room though- the UK is responsible for only 1% of world CO2, so in the great scheme of things is as about as worrying as the state of your ashtray in your Rolls Royce.
burman said:
As usual some very comprehensive comments showing that PHers in general are an intelligent bunch.
There is one small elephant in the room though- the UK is responsible for only 1% of world CO2, so in the great scheme of things is as about as worrying as the state of your ashtray in your Rolls Royce.
Pfft amateur- if everyone in north london drives a tesla to Waitrose the world is saved- we all know that. There is one small elephant in the room though- the UK is responsible for only 1% of world CO2, so in the great scheme of things is as about as worrying as the state of your ashtray in your Rolls Royce.
Court_S said:
Billy_Whizzzz said:
BMW i3 still looks brilliant. The Hyundai looks good too. But most of my journeys are 300 miles + with a lot of motorways and given that I do 30000 miles a year that would mean a lot of time sitting in a motorway services. I’d rather do almost anything than visit a British services. So unfortunately means keeping the daily ICE for a while yet.
Agree re the i3.It’s a far more interesting little car than any of the EV’s that BMW are churning out at the mo. I think they’re fun to drive too. I’d like one for my other half but prices are really strong still.
burman said:
There is one small elephant in the room though- the UK is responsible for only 1% of world CO2, so in the great scheme of things is as about as worrying as the state of your ashtray in your Rolls Royce.
Should we just be cheering on the Americans and Chinese then?This is one of the reasons why I try not to get drawn into debate about whether to decarbonise or not.
I'm much more interested in debating how to go about it.
burman said:
As usual some very comprehensive comments showing that PHers in general are an intelligent bunch.
There is one small elephant in the room though- the UK is responsible for only 1% of world CO2, so in the great scheme of things is as about as worrying as the state of your ashtray in your Rolls Royce.
But what we do in the UK helps to fund innovation that can be applied globally. Every EV bought here brings down the unit cost of EVs for everywhere, bearing in mind car manufacturers tend to look and try to operate globally.There is one small elephant in the room though- the UK is responsible for only 1% of world CO2, so in the great scheme of things is as about as worrying as the state of your ashtray in your Rolls Royce.
For example, without the early adopters of the mobile phone in Europe and the US, people in Africa wouldn't have access to cheap mobile phones. The same applies to solar panels and many other innovations, including ICE cars.
Edited by Fastlane on Thursday 4th August 12:19
burman said:
There is one small elephant in the room though- the UK is responsible for only 1% of world CO2, so in the great scheme of things is as about as worrying as the state of your ashtray in your Rolls Royce.
The trouble with this logic is that there are over 200 countries in the world. If only those who are responsible for more than 4% of emissions need to do anything about it then everyone except China, The USA, India and Russia can say it's someone else's problem. But all of them combined are only 55% of emissions. And most of China's emissions is from manufacturing all the stuff that everyone else buys.When there are 7bn people on the planet each and every one of them can reasonably make the argument that their own personal contribution is so infinitesimally small that they don't need to do anything. Even someone who has a private jet will be a tiny fraction of a percent. But if everyone things like that then nobody will do anything.
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