RE: Audi A1 quattro vs. Toyota GR Yaris

[Baldchap]

I think being the last petrol homologation car ever made will count for something. They made squillions of Evos but they're fetching good money now.

[J4CKO]

nunpuncher said:

Nubiann said:

When the Toyota is crushed into a small square of recyclable gumph, it will be the A1 that will stand the test of posterity, and is preserved as an automotive Icon for what it stands for and how good it was a full decade before Toyota caught up. For that reason it gets my vote and my cash if I could buy either.

I'm going to buck the trend of slating this comment and say it's possibly a valid point. History looks favourably on limited production run cars. The GR Yaris will no doubt be a victim of it's own success when the world eventually corrects itself and the next shiny new thing comes along.

Yeah, give it ten years and The Yaris GR will be getting crushed

The Yaris is a limited run car in itself, go and try and get a new one, go and see how much second hand ones go for ?

The next "Shiny things" will typically be electric, do you really think a car as well regarded as the GRY will not retain its value ?

[fido]

Gio G said:

Nice review, however the GR vs the S1 would have been a better comparison, given the S1 had production numbers. We should praise both manufactures for sinking serious R&D money into making these models. S1 was a skunk works for Audi which was made at a big expense. No longer made, so GR would be a natural choice. I love my little S1, the only car I cannot seem to part with...
G

I miss my S1 as well. It replaced an MX-5 and then itself replaced by an MX-5 BBR Turbo so took some beating. The FWD-ness is not that much of an issue - however there is no doubting that the GR has 'proper' AWD.

[Olivera]

Baldchap said:

I think being the last petrol homologation car ever made will count for something.

Only it didn't homologate anything as the competition car was scrapped, and the 992 GT3 is still used to homologate the GT3 R race car.

[blade7]

BAMoFo said:

blade7 said:

4 cylinder 2.0 German v 3 cylinder 1.6 Japanese. Someone is having their pants pulled down...

Have you still got a 944? Now that is a car that would have been much nicer with more cylinders. I used to own a 944 turbo cabriolet and the smoothness of the four cylinder engine with its balancer shaft was completely at odds with the cylinder count. That, combined with a turbo made it sound pretty flat.

I do still have a 944, imagine what it would have been like with less cylinders? It's unlikely that I'm going to be convinced any time soon, that 3 cylinders and less capacity, work better than if Ford or Toyota had designed their engines with more capacity and 4 cylinders.

[Leon R]

blade7 said:

BAMoFo said:

blade7 said:

4 cylinder 2.0 German v 3 cylinder 1.6 Japanese. Someone is having their pants pulled down...

Have you still got a 944? Now that is a car that would have been much nicer with more cylinders. I used to own a 944 turbo cabriolet and the smoothness of the four cylinder engine with its balancer shaft was completely at odds with the cylinder count. That, combined with a turbo made it sound pretty flat.

I do still have a 944, imagine what it would have been like with less cylinders? It's unlikely that I'm going to be convinced any time soon, that 3 cylinders and less capacity, work better than if Ford or Toyota had designed their engines with more capacity and 4 cylinders.

Define 'work better'

Emissions? Packaging? Performance? Cost? Weight?

[EpsomJames]

J4CKO said:

The A1 is a nice car, and Audis are well made but the review points out how the Toyota is leagues ahead, it didnt take Toyota ten years to surpass it, they could have done it at any time as they know what they are doing, not that Audi dont, but sounds like the GR runs rings around it.

The A1 is pretty much a modified Audi A1 with 4wd and some bespoke bits, the GR Yaris is a whole, ground up design that happens to share a name with the other car called Yaris.

I haven't driven either, but doubt the GR Yaris is "leagues ahead" and "runs rings around" the A1 Quattro and I'm not sure the article alludes to that either. A better drive, yes I'm sure of it, but if t wasn't then Toyota would have missed their design objective.

Also, can it be a "ground up design" when it shares the same platform as the standard Yaris (plus likely many other parts), albeit with a back end from another shared platform to incorporate the 4WD system? I would think the amount of work that went into both A1 Quattro and GR Yaris over their standard counterparts are comparable.

[RSgeoff]

Loved My S1 competition, but "out of the box" they aren't a patch on the GR as a drivers car. Once lowered / remapped / clutch & pads uprated it was a different car, but alas we're comparing std for std here.
However im 6'4" and could have been on the list for one of the first GR's but after sitting in one the seating position was terrible and now way was I paying £40k for one.
Im just hoping some GR Corollas get into the UK via the Grey import scent in the future

[Trevor555]

blade7 said:

BAMoFo said:

blade7 said:

4 cylinder 2.0 German v 3 cylinder 1.6 Japanese. Someone is having their pants pulled down...

Have you still got a 944? Now that is a car that would have been much nicer with more cylinders. I used to own a 944 turbo cabriolet and the smoothness of the four cylinder engine with its balancer shaft was completely at odds with the cylinder count. That, combined with a turbo made it sound pretty flat.

I do still have a 944, imagine what it would have been like with less cylinders? It's unlikely that I'm going to be convinced any time soon, that 3 cylinders and less capacity, work better than if Ford or Toyota had designed their engines with more capacity and 4 cylinders.

I had a GR very briefly, and my missus has an ST Puma with a three pot.

Both great engines despite me being sceptical beforehand.

They don't really feel 3 cylinder like the old VW Up's, and Corsa's did.

[blade7]

Leon R said:

Define 'work better'

Emissions? Packaging? Performance? Cost? Weight?

Valve area.

[ecsrobin]

blade7 said:

Leon R said:

Define 'work better'

Emissions? Packaging? Performance? Cost? Weight?

Valve area.

Care to elaborate?

[nunpuncher]

J4CKO said:

nunpuncher said:

Nubiann said:

When the Toyota is crushed into a small square of recyclable gumph, it will be the A1 that will stand the test of posterity, and is preserved as an automotive Icon for what it stands for and how good it was a full decade before Toyota caught up. For that reason it gets my vote and my cash if I could buy either.

I'm going to buck the trend of slating this comment and say it's possibly a valid point. History looks favourably on limited production run cars. The GR Yaris will no doubt be a victim of it's own success when the world eventually corrects itself and the next shiny new thing comes along.

Yeah, give it ten years and The Yaris GR will be getting crushed

The Yaris is a limited run car in itself, go and try and get a new one, go and see how much second hand ones go for ?

The next "Shiny things" will typically be electric, do you really think a car as well regarded as the GRY will not retain its value ?

It will retain more of its value than most cars when it's 10 years old but I don't believe it will retain it's value as well as the Audi has done. The only A1 Quattro I can find for sale in the UK is £47k at 10 years old.

And it's not a limited run car. There was a 25k unit requirement for homologation but as it never raced that figure wasn't required. Toyota said they'll keep building them and haven't put a figure on your supposed limited run.

[Leon R]

nunpuncher said:

It will retain more of its value than most cars when it's 10 years old but I don't believe it will retain it's value as well as the Audi has done. The only A1 Quattro I can find for sale in the UK is £47k at 10 years old.

And it's not a limited run car. There was a 25k unit requirement for homologation but as it never raced that figure wasn't required. Toyota said they'll keep building them and haven't put a figure on your supposed limited run.

I actually quite like the A1 quattro but you have to admit that a HUGE part of why it holds that level of value is little to do with how good of a car it is and a lot to do with how rare it is.

[bencollins4]

EpsomJames said:

J4CKO said:

The A1 is a nice car, and Audis are well made but the review points out how the Toyota is leagues ahead, it didnt take Toyota ten years to surpass it, they could have done it at any time as they know what they are doing, not that Audi dont, but sounds like the GR runs rings around it.

The A1 is pretty much a modified Audi A1 with 4wd and some bespoke bits, the GR Yaris is a whole, ground up design that happens to share a name with the other car called Yaris.

I haven't driven either, but doubt the GR Yaris is "leagues ahead" and "runs rings around" the A1 Quattro and I'm not sure the article alludes to that either. A better drive, yes I'm sure of it, but if t wasn't then Toyota would have missed their design objective.

Also, can it be a "ground up design" when it shares the same platform as the standard Yaris (plus likely many other parts), albeit with a back end from another shared platform to incorporate the 4WD system? I would think the amount of work that went into both A1 Quattro and GR Yaris over their standard counterparts are comparable.

The GR Yaris does not share it’s platform with the standard Yaris, nor many other parts. But it looks like you’ve just guessed that without much knowledge at all. I’ll leave you to have a read if you’re interested.

[Court_S]

Leon R said:

I actually quite like the A1 quattro but you have to admit that a HUGE part of why it holds that level of value is little to do with how good of a car it is and a lot to do with how rare it is.

Exactly. The fact that there are so few worldwide, let alone in the UK is keeping values high. It’s a cool wee thing but I doubt many of the few will see much use for fear of damaging said value as a collectors item.

I like the GR Yaris. I’ve seen a few kicking about and agree they look much better in the flesh than in pictures. I think it’s very cool that Toyota went to so much effort especially with the supposed end of all out ICE cars in sight.

[Unreal]

EpsomJames said:

J4CKO said:

The A1 is a nice car, and Audis are well made but the review points out how the Toyota is leagues ahead, it didnt take Toyota ten years to surpass it, they could have done it at any time as they know what they are doing, not that Audi dont, but sounds like the GR runs rings around it.

The A1 is pretty much a modified Audi A1 with 4wd and some bespoke bits, the GR Yaris is a whole, ground up design that happens to share a name with the other car called Yaris.

Also, can it be a "ground up design" when it shares the same platform as the standard Yaris (plus likely many other parts), albeit with a back end from another shared platform to incorporate the 4WD system? I would think the amount of work that went into both A1 Quattro and GR Yaris over their standard counterparts are comparable.

It doesn't share many parts at all. I'm surprised you don't know that because just about any review highlights it.

[EpsomJames]

bencollins4 said:

EpsomJames said:

J4CKO said:

The A1 is a nice car, and Audis are well made but the review points out how the Toyota is leagues ahead, it didnt take Toyota ten years to surpass it, they could have done it at any time as they know what they are doing, not that Audi dont, but sounds like the GR runs rings around it.

The A1 is pretty much a modified Audi A1 with 4wd and some bespoke bits, the GR Yaris is a whole, ground up design that happens to share a name with the other car called Yaris.

I haven't driven either, but doubt the GR Yaris is "leagues ahead" and "runs rings around" the A1 Quattro and I'm not sure the article alludes to that either. A better drive, yes I'm sure of it, but if t wasn't then Toyota would have missed their design objective.

Also, can it be a "ground up design" when it shares the same platform as the standard Yaris (plus likely many other parts), albeit with a back end from another shared platform to incorporate the 4WD system? I would think the amount of work that went into both A1 Quattro and GR Yaris over their standard counterparts are comparable.

The GR Yaris does not share it’s platform with the standard Yaris, nor many other parts. But it looks like you’ve just guessed that without much knowledge at all. I’ll leave you to have a read if you’re interested.

You could be right. I've only seen this page on Wikipedia (which I freely agree have been wrong in the past).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_New_Global_Ar...

Suggest you get them to alter it if it's wrong and the platform isn't the GA-B (which is the same as standard Yaris) with the rear being the GA-C.

[ecsrobin]

EpsomJames said:

You could be right. I've only seen this page on Wikipedia (which I freely agree have been wrong in the past).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_New_Global_Ar...

Suggest you get them to alter it if it's wrong and the platform isn't the GA-B (which is the same as standard Yaris) with the rear being the GA-C.

From Toyota “ GR Yaris is built on a unique platform, combining Toyota’s new GA-B platform (which debuted on the new generation Yaris hatchback) and a rear section adapted from the GA-C platform used for the Corolla and C-HR models.”

https://media.toyota.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/site...

[rodericb]

"platform" can be a bit of an ambiguous term. The only bits which supposedly fit on both the normal Yaris and the GR Yaris is the headlights and mirrors. I don't know if anything is interchangeable from the GR Yaris to the CH-R (ie. rear suspension bits, rear diff). How much is transferable between the A1 Quattro and other PQ25 VAG cars?

[Jon_S_Rally]

Olivera said:

Only it didn't homologate anything as the competition car was scrapped, and the 992 GT3 is still used to homologate the GT3 R race car.

nunpuncher said:

It will retain more of its value than most cars when it's 10 years old but I don't believe it will retain it's value as well as the Audi has done. The only A1 Quattro I can find for sale in the UK is £47k at 10 years old.

And it's not a limited run car. There was a 25k unit requirement for homologation but as it never raced that figure wasn't required. Toyota said they'll keep building them and haven't put a figure on your supposed limited run.

I think a little caution is required around the homologation issue. It was an obvious selling point for Toyota, but the reality of modern rallying is that they're actually homologating little more than a body shell. All of the mechanical components are thrown in a skip, and all of the floor would have been thrown away. If you look at a 2017-21 World Rally Car (which is what the GR was supposed to become), it shares basically nothing with a road car. Even the doors are thicker to allow for sufficient side impact protection. Essentially, the only advantage to come from the GR Yaris body was the lower roofline. As I understand, Toyota are also producing a low-spec version of the GR Yaris that uses the same body shell, but has a much simpler drivetrain. That would allow them to hit the 25,000 car target without building all of the more expensive 4WD models, though demand may have shifted that balance to an extent.

Where the GR Yaris might prove useful is if (when) Toyota build a car for one of the lower categories. There have been rumours some time about them building a car for the Rally2 or Rally3 category. In terms of Rally2, again, the roof line would be the main benefit, though they would probably use the engine too. The rest of the car would be bespoke though. If they do a Rally3 version they might use more carry-over parts. It depends on how quickly they go ahead with either project though, as a 4WD road car isn't required for either category, and we don't yet know when the current Yaris will be replaced. It might make more marketing sense to base it on the standard five-door, or on a newer model that comes along.

In short, people made a lot of the homologation thing, but it wasn't as big a deal as Toyota would like you to believe in my view. It's great that they've built the car regardless though.

blade7 said:

I do still have a 944, imagine what it would have been like with less cylinders? It's unlikely that I'm going to be convinced any time soon, that 3 cylinders and less capacity, work better than if Ford or Toyota had designed their engines with more capacity and 4 cylinders.

Are you American? It's not the 1950s anymore. Cars don't need loads of cylinders and capacity to go fast anymore. It just means more weight and less efficiency.

Edited by Jon_S_Rally on Tuesday 9th August 08:18