RE: Steal or no steal | Mid-engined maestros

[Flanners]

I echo the lack of F/TF in this list a glaring omission; a well cared for example in eoither guise with decent tyres is an absolute hoot to drive, insurance is dirt cheap as are spares/maintenance both have aged well too in the 'right colours'; forget the down payment for a PCP loan car and get the whole shebang for £2K! I have a TF, an F, VX220 and an S1 Elise mid-engined cars. All offer fantastic open top analogue 'cheap' motoring. You don't need mega bhp and the latest electronic gizmos to have fun.....a twisty B road is where it's at for me.

Edited by Flanners on Monday 8th August 08:17

[Equus]

Critcism of the MGF was perhaps justified back in the days when they were nearly new and prices were comparable with the MX5 - in which case you'd have to be pretty brave to claim that the MG was the better car of the two (though they weren't that far apart).

These days, MGFs range from £1K-£6K, while the price range for Mk.1 MX5s puts equivalent vehicles at three times the price.

The MGF does beat the Lotus Elise in one respect - it actually has a better gearchange.

[daytonavrs]

otolith said:

You’re always into diminishing returns with cars, but personally I wouldn’t swap my Elise for 25k and a ropey old MGF.

Dunno about the other owners but my MG is far from ropey, also came with cash to make better i.e. do basic maintenance it may have missed from literally just being sat.....
Recently or in the last 5 years I have done to a VVC mk2 (143) with 20k miles
(alloy intake manifold, bigger air intake and alloy throttle body - it is hence much closer to the trophy or TF160)

Had full hydrolastic overhaul and re-nitrogen, new rubber boots, brakes, stainless steel pipes, going to get the new style SAIC head gasket and fit PRT and shelled out the known problem thermostat...Kmaps remap.....

Just getting timing and pump change, may as well do some mild port matching e.g. sorting internal downpipes welds for better flow whilst everything is off ( would get a good used stainless but there aren't any)

Also had full leather seats, steering wheel and gaitor replacement set to bling, as I didn't like the original part fabric personally.

Paintwork condition is pretty mint - rust free bodywork, its been covered by my father and carported by me, only rust is on some of the existing fasteners!
It would appear a jewel compared to many early other car models rusting away?

Probably at least as pampered as most older cars of this age, obviously there are always going to be some undesired cars rusting away unloved somewhere with no chance of MOT but they are the only ones you get going to get for circa £500 now.
Ones like this are more like appreciating to be sold be specialist dealers for at least 5k.

"Ropey" doesn't fit the bill on a large number of these club affiliated or loved cars.
The kind of maintenance done to them will be no doubt similar to what elise k series owners are doing to theirs to keep running ?

I've driven dozens of cars of different manufacturers and not a rover nut, but this is defininitely one of the top experience ownership cars to have within a budget. Many modern cars are fast but so, so dull to drive.

[thelostboy]

The Elise S1 was previously very undervalued, but even now hardly expensive compared to what you have to pay for just about anything today.

One of those "they'll never make 'em like that again" cars, oh so pretty, and an event at any speed. The only issue is you need a garage to put it in!

[otolith]

To be honest, with the car market the way it is at the moment, I'm sceptical that anything sub-2k as suggested would be other than "ropey". But if you can pick up a nice one for what has now become shed money, that's good.

[daytonavrs]

Fiat X1/9 gives me more Tr7 shudders than Ferrari, its not a Dino. Which is why you can even get direct comparisons with that.

https://www.hagerty.co.uk/articles/classic-car-rev...

.

[GrahamNorton]

I have been planning on getting a late NC MX5 with the strong intention of getting it tuned by BBR. Probably the 225 ITB setup. All in your looking at probably £20K (assuming you get a 3.75 mint MX5 base car).

I keep thinking that a S1 Elise could be a better purchase.....looks better, better steering feel, will hold its value.

Need to test drive one really to get a comparison. I test drove a standard MX5 earlier in the year. Still need to get down to BBR to get that comparison too.

[daytonavrs]

GrahamNorton said:

I have been planning on getting a late NC MX5 with the strong intention of getting it tuned by BBR. Probably the 225 ITB setup. All in your looking at probably £20K (assuming you get a 3.75 mint MX5 base car).

I keep thinking that a S1 Elise could be a better purchase.....looks better, better steering feel, will hold its value.

Need to test drive one really to get a comparison. I test drove a standard MX5 earlier in the year. Still need to get down to BBR to get that comparison too.

Isn't that a front engined car ?

[GrahamNorton]

daytonavrs said:

GrahamNorton said:

I have been planning on getting a late NC MX5 with the strong intention of getting it tuned by BBR. Probably the 225 ITB setup. All in your looking at probably £20K (assuming you get a 3.75 mint MX5 base car).

I keep thinking that a S1 Elise could be a better purchase.....looks better, better steering feel, will hold its value.

Need to test drive one really to get a comparison. I test drove a standard MX5 earlier in the year. Still need to get down to BBR to get that comparison too.

Isn't that a front engined car ?

Of course. I wasnt suggesting it should have featured in the article.

In the real world I expect that most people would have a budget and be looking for a convertible sports car and not be restricted to looking purely at those where the engine sits in the middle. I imagine that it being rear driven would be a more likely differentiator. Of course removing the 'mid-engined' categorization opens it up to LOTS of alternatives although few that I feel would be as compelling as an alternative.

Some may have experience of both so it's always interesting to see peoples views/

[donkmeister]

Equus said:

Critcism of the MGF was perhaps justified back in the days when they were nearly new and prices were comparable with the MX5 - in which case you'd have to be pretty brave to claim that the MG was the better car of the two (though they weren't that far apart).

The F was faster than the MX5 in both straight lines and corners, and neither is exactly a refined car. Both are a lot of fun.

I had a TF160 and an NB SVT at the same time, and have always been bemused by those who haven't owned an F/TF assuming the Mazda must magically be better. The only two areas I would say the Mazda wins are 1) predictable tail-out at relatively low speed (but remember the SVT has an LSD so no idea about lesser MX5s) Vs mid-engine "look how much grip you have... aha! Surprise, bh!" handling and 2) the somewhat industrial engine is more reliable than the K-series (despite the cosseting even mine blew its HG around 40k miles).

[kambites]

donkmeister said:

I had a TF160 and an NB SVT at the same time, and have always been bemused by those who haven't owned an F/TF assuming the Mazda must magically be better. The only two areas I would say the Mazda wins are 1) predictable tail-out at relatively low speed (but remember the SVT has an LSD so no idea about lesser MX5s) Vs mid-engine "look how much grip you have... aha! Surprise, bh!" handling and 2) the somewhat industrial engine is more reliable than the K-series (despite the cosseting even mine blew its HG around 40k miles).

Driving position is the other place the MX5 beats the MGF hands-down. At least if you're my shape! Whatever I do with seat position, I can't get myself far enough from the pedals for my legs to be comfortable without being too far from the wheel for my arms to be comfortable. Mind you I couldn't in my Elise either until I fitted a spacer to the wheel.

Edited by kambites on Monday 8th August 13:55

[donkmeister]

GrahamNorton said:

daytonavrs said:

GrahamNorton said:

I have been planning on getting a late NC MX5 with the strong intention of getting it tuned by BBR. Probably the 225 ITB setup. All in your looking at probably £20K (assuming you get a 3.75 mint MX5 base car).

I keep thinking that a S1 Elise could be a better purchase.....looks better, better steering feel, will hold its value.

Need to test drive one really to get a comparison. I test drove a standard MX5 earlier in the year. Still need to get down to BBR to get that comparison too.

Isn't that a front engined car ?

Of course. I wasnt suggesting it should have featured in the article.

In the real world I expect that most people would have a budget and be looking for a convertible sports car and not be restricted to looking purely at those where the engine sits in the middle. I imagine that it being rear driven would be a more likely differentiator. Of course removing the 'mid-engined' categorization opens it up to LOTS of alternatives although few that I feel would be as compelling as an alternative.

Some may have experience of both so it's always interesting to see peoples views/

Ooh, me!!! Me!!! I have experience of the TF, the NB SVT and the NC!!!
They're all a lot of fun. If you can comfortably fit in the NB then you'll be fine in all three. If you can't fit in the TF you won't fit in the NB or NC.
The mid-engine moment of inertia really does give you a bit more nimbleness if you want to have a quick point to point car without the rawness of a Lotus. However, and this might be due to my 160 having the sports pack suspension, exceptionally undulating country roads are not your friend... There's one such road that mine really didn't like.
The MX5s have handling that's a bit more playful and forgiving. Hence their popularity with people who aren't very good drivers

[donkmeister]

kambites said:

donkmeister said:

I had a TF160 and an NB SVT at the same time, and have always been bemused by those who haven't owned an F/TF assuming the Mazda must magically be better. The only two areas I would say the Mazda wins are 1) predictable tail-out at relatively low speed (but remember the SVT has an LSD so no idea about lesser MX5s) Vs mid-engine "look how much grip you have... aha! Surprise, bh!" handling and 2) the somewhat industrial engine is more reliable than the K-series (despite the cosseting even mine blew its HG around 40k miles).

Driving position is the other place the MX5 beats the MGF hands-down. At least if you're my shape!

Ha, as you allude that is subjective - I can only get into the driver's seat of an NB if I put the roof down first. But I am 6'2.

[kambites]

donkmeister said:

Ha, as you allude that is subjective - I can only get into the driver's seat of an NB if I put the roof down first. But I am 6'2.

I'm six foot and I can't drive a standard MGF/TF for more than about ten minutes.

I'm OK, although not perfect in an MX5. The one car I've owned which I could get a perfect driving position in was my MGB.

[GTRene]

daytonavrs said:

Fiat X1/9 gives me more Tr7 shudders than Ferrari, its not a Dino. Which is why you can even get direct comparisons with that.

https://www.hagerty.co.uk/articles/classic-car-rev...

.

thanks for sharing, enjoyed that, sadly they used a 1500, I think the 1300 was 'better' better looking, although you can change the bumpers, but also better driving somehow, felt more nimble?

maybe one they built a few restomod Fiat X1/9 or with carbon body and 2.0 with 200+ engine and great gearbox and a bit wider flares.

had 5 of those in the past, one such 1500 bertone, first 3 times a 1300 then wanted to try the 1500 because more hp and newr... but a disappointment, so sold it and after a few other cars I bought again a 1300, great days, not fast, but felt faster then it was by feel, a great little car.

[donkmeister]

kambites said:

donkmeister said:

Ha, as you allude that is subjective - I can only get into the driver's seat of an NB if I put the roof down first. But I am 6'2.

I'm six foot and I can't drive a standard MGF/TF for more than about ten minutes.

I'm OK, although not perfect in an MX5. The one car I've owned which I could get a perfect driving position in was my MGB.

Shows the fun that automotive designers must have designing a car to fit 95% of the adult population from 4'10 to 6'6 if two people of similar height have such different experiences!

[kambites]

donkmeister said:

Shows the fun that automotive designers must have designing a car to fit 95% of the adult population from 4'10 to 6'6 if two people of similar height have such different experiences!

Yup. The only thing they can really do is put lots of adjustability into the driving position, which no cars of this era have. Even modern cars very rarely have enough reach adjustment in the steering column for me to get really comfortable; I have the choice between "can't reach the top of the steering wheel with my legs comfortable" and "can't reach any part of the steering wheel with my legs comfortable".

[otolith]

Yep, overall height isn't a great indicator of whether you'll fit in a given car because people vary in proportions.

[Fastdruid]

GTRene said:

It also had gaspedal lag, not turbo lag :-) I mean when you stept of the pedal, it slowly went down in rpm, it was because enviroments or something? I hated that, did not made it feel connected, but on the throttle it did.

100% for emissions reasons. It's to reduce NOx. To steal a quote from elsewhere.

Douglas Skorupsk said:

“As you pull your foot off the throttle, what we are trying to prevent is a big hunk of air getting into the chamber without any fuel. If air gets in that way, when you do reapply throttle, it creates a lean condition (a higher than 14.7:1 air-to-fuel ratio), which generates nitrous oxides or NOx. By delaying the fuel cut-off in the cylinder, we get some fuel in there with the air to keep the mixture correct and avoid the lean condition and prevent the NOx from occurring.”

[Fastdruid]

Bencolem said:

Mid-engined sports cars under £20,000 seems a shallow pool to swim in; apart from the Boxster, Elise/VX220 twin, MR2, MGF and the X1/9 what other options are there really to choose from?!

Imported Pontiac Fiero? Ropey Porsche 914? Honda Beat / Autozam AZ-1 Kei car type curios? Kit cars?…

Technically we're talking here about rear wheel drive with mid-rear mounted engines, there are mid-front mounted engines as well.. For example the RX-8.

Really depends on if you want it to actually be about the engine being between the axles....or between the axles *AND* behind the driver.