Timing belt failure just out of warranty
Discussion
Limpet said:
As a non-legal person, does a signed (by both parties) and dated receipt carrying the words "sold as seen, tried and approved" have any bearing on the legalities?
Seriously, I am never going to sell a car privately again if a buyer can later screw me in court for something I knew nothing about.
I think it takes a special kind of buyer, one that wants a new car for used car money, thinks they have every right under the sun and doesn't want to buy from a dealer because they are expensive, its usually the type of customer a trader will want to avoid.Seriously, I am never going to sell a car privately again if a buyer can later screw me in court for something I knew nothing about.
stevemcs said:
Limpet said:
As a non-legal person, does a signed (by both parties) and dated receipt carrying the words "sold as seen, tried and approved" have any bearing on the legalities?
Seriously, I am never going to sell a car privately again if a buyer can later screw me in court for something I knew nothing about.
I think it takes a special kind of buyer, one that wants a new car for used car money, thinks they have every right under the sun and doesn't want to buy from a dealer because they are expensive, its usually the type of customer a trader will want to avoid.Seriously, I am never going to sell a car privately again if a buyer can later screw me in court for something I knew nothing about.
There was the chap who didn't have a warranty on his C43 AMG bought from a dealer,, did 30k miles over 2-3 years in it without problem, then it spat a rod out and he went crying because he didn't have a warranty
I recall also, another chap who bought an Insignia privately I think it was? Paid money for it either unseen, or didn't look at it properly (can't remember) and it developed a death rattle on the drive home (but was fine on the test drive!!)
Because the private seller had used words to the effect of "a garage has given it a check over" (what this actually meant was never flushed out I believe, but no check covers inspection of rod bearings...) many posters also felt that he was entitled to a full refund from the private seller.
It's a very worrying time to be a private used car seller as you have so many entitled t
ts, frankly - think they can spend £2-5k on a Jupiter mile ex rep mobile and then get a full refund 3 months later when they get a check engine light.No wonder so many people sell direct to trade via Car buying services or in PX - I'd happily take £500 less to avoid dealing with the general public as well!
The other worrying thing is that a few judges do seem to be awarding costs to buyers in these cases. You have to be very careful when writing a for sale advert these days.
No mention of "everything works", even if it does. "Very reliable etc" - dangerous, when it breaks down 2 years after selling it, you get a LBA on your doorstep.
You can get away with "no known faults, But I'm not a mechanic, so if you want to bring your own inspection then please arrange"
RECr said:
I don't think sold as seen carries any weight in court.
For a private seller - yes.For a trade seller - no.
Which is why so many car traders like to pretend they are private individuals selling from home when in reality there's a constant stream of cars across their driveway.
You will similarly see cars for sale "spares and repairs" where a trader is hoping to sidestep liability when the reality is selling a cheap, used car.
It's very hard ever to win against a private seller unless there's been a gross mis-description of the vehicle or known faults have been deliberately concealed (e.g. applying fresh underseal to hide rust.)
Panamax said:
RECr said:
I don't think sold as seen carries any weight in court.
For a private seller - yes.For a trade seller - no.
Which is why so many car traders like to pretend they are private individuals selling from home when in reality there's a constant stream of cars across their driveway.
You will similarly see cars for sale "spares and repairs" where a trader is hoping to sidestep liability when the reality is selling a cheap, used car.
It's very hard ever to win against a private seller unless there's been a gross mis-description of the vehicle or known faults have been deliberately concealed (e.g. applying fresh underseal to hide rust.)
Bobton125 said:
I feel sorry for the seller too in a way, he didn’t mean to sell a dud car but one of us was going to be out of pocket by 3k here so i would rather that be him!
Wow.I thought maybe there was some background to this where you knew the seller was trying to pull a fast one and palm you off with a car they were aware was suspect, but no. You knew he was an innocent party and went after him anyway, because you could.
No wonder people don't want to sell stuff privately with people like you about.
InitialDave said:
Bobton125 said:
I feel sorry for the seller too in a way, he didn’t mean to sell a dud car but one of us was going to be out of pocket by 3k here so i would rather that be him!
Wow.I thought maybe there was some background to this where you knew the seller was trying to pull a fast one and palm you off with a car they were aware was suspect, but no. You knew he was an innocent party and went after him anyway, because you could.
No wonder people don't want to sell stuff privately with people like you about.
If the seller had deliberately hidden something, or mechanical inspection provided evidence of bodgery that the seller probably knew about, that's a different matter, but I don't think I could sleep at night if I'd done that to someone I genuinely believed thought they were selling a decent car. Or if it were a trader of course.
Stuff like this genuinely puts a dent in my already battered faith in humanity.
Limpet said:
InitialDave said:
Bobton125 said:
I feel sorry for the seller too in a way, he didn’t mean to sell a dud car but one of us was going to be out of pocket by 3k here so i would rather that be him!
Wow.I thought maybe there was some background to this where you knew the seller was trying to pull a fast one and palm you off with a car they were aware was suspect, but no. You knew he was an innocent party and went after him anyway, because you could.
No wonder people don't want to sell stuff privately with people like you about.
If the seller had deliberately hidden something, or mechanical inspection provided evidence of bodgery that the seller probably knew about, that's a different matter, but I don't think I could sleep at night if I'd done that to someone I genuinely believed thought they were selling a decent car. Or if it were a trader of course.
Stuff like this genuinely puts a dent in my already battered faith in humanity.
Baldchap said:
105.4 said:
W201_190e said:
105.4 said:
littleruss said:
Official belt change is 120k / 5 years according to the dealer today, so nowhere even close.
120’000 miles on the same cam belt !
For the sake of a couple of hundred quid for a belt kit, I think I’d be changing it every 25’000 miles.
LuS1fer said:
I'm wondering if the seller thought that it would be thrown out and so didn't enter a defence or attend court ie judgement in default.
I agree. There's definitely something missing from the story. Either the seller didn't turn up, or gave a poor defence. I think a poor defence is possible. Maybe the seller said something stupid and gave away that he was aware of the fault and this was used against him. Or maybe he didn't turn up. Put it this way, if the buyer couldn't pick up on the fault whilst test driving/looking round the vehicle how could the seller pick up on this? I guarantee you that something is missing from the story. I don't know why everyone is panicking so much over this one example. If you had the rights to sell a car, the car was roadworthy, you didn't misrepresent it and you provide a solid defence there's no way you can lose the court case. This example is missing an important piece of information or it would be the most outrageous court case ever.
Besides, I think it's best to just stick to facts anyway in a car ad. I just put that everything seems to be work as far as I know and how the vehicle is sold as seen with no warranty. I think putting 'everything works' or 'no rust' or 'will pass it's next MOT with no advisories' is much easier to be used against you. Just stick to the facts and you'll be ok.
Also, I agree that private sale = no comeback whatsoever is nonsense.
105.4 said:
W201_190e said:
105.4 said:
littleruss said:
Official belt change is 120k / 5 years according to the dealer today, so nowhere even close.
120’000 miles on the same cam belt !
For the sake of a couple of hundred quid for a belt kit, I think I’d be changing it every 25’000 miles.
dhutch said:
Yeah I don't know, I know a lot of people with newish leased cars that might, but otherwise I don't know many people with a warranty of any sort on an older car.
That's possibly because often the only warranties available on older cars are third party ones, which people don't trust.My car is 12 years old/100k+ miles and worth somewhere between £10-13k, and I have an extended warranty on it, but only because it's a manufacturers one. If that wasn't available to me I'd do without rather than go third party.
Draxindustries1 said:
Something not right with this. No way can anyone tell if a belt is about to snap.
The seller likely sold the car in good faith and it had to be in ' good running order' for the buyer to test drive it and drive it away.
Everything is in good running order until it breaks/ blows up / sts itself.
Someone selling a used washing machine could give a buyer a demo, the next day the motor could implode , its the way of used mechanical items.
The incident with the A3 should have been laughed out of court..
I agree timing belts snapping are sudden and even if it did snap a day later there is no way the seller would know this unless he got his palm read! It’s just bad luck and selling it in “good working order” well it was in good working order when it was bought.. very strange story and if true the judge is shocking and has no knowledge about cars and shouldn’t be judging without any understanding. A 150k mile car Jesus surely there would be grounds to appeal that decision. The seller likely sold the car in good faith and it had to be in ' good running order' for the buyer to test drive it and drive it away.
Everything is in good running order until it breaks/ blows up / s
ts itself.Someone selling a used washing machine could give a buyer a demo, the next day the motor could implode , its the way of used mechanical items.
The incident with the A3 should have been laughed out of court..
BAMoFo said:
Age is as much, if not more, of a factor in timing belt failure than mileage.
Ships, aircraft, generators and agricultural machinery measure engine hours and not distance travelled. In the case of a car used in a city it might have massive engine hours with a pretty low mileage. Hence the either/or of age/mileage. One of my "things" is that if you have a good understanding of your car's use cycle you can vary appropriately from the manufacturer's service schedule with very little risk. BAMoFo said:
Also, if you do reasonably involved maintenance too often you are more likely to suffer from what is known as maintenance induced failures. It is a known condition and occurs despite the fact that mechanics should know what they are doing.
That's 100% true and manufacturers have known for decades that the best way to keep a car reliable is to keep it away from blokes with spanners. It's definitely one of the reasons why extended service intervals and sealed-for-life items are attractive. It's also one of the reasons why any modification at all is likely to adversely affect your warranty experience.CarCrazyDad said:
Worryingly, from what I've seen recently, they walk among us!!
There was the chap who didn't have a warranty on his C43 AMG bought from a dealer,, did 30k miles over 2-3 years in it without problem, then it spat a rod out and he went crying because he didn't have a warranty
I recall also, another chap who bought an Insignia privately I think it was? Paid money for it either unseen, or didn't look at it properly (can't remember) and it developed a death rattle on the drive home (but was fine on the test drive!!)
Because the private seller had used words to the effect of "a garage has given it a check over" (what this actually meant was never flushed out I believe, but no check covers inspection of rod bearings...) many posters also felt that he was entitled to a full refund from the private seller.
It's a very worrying time to be a private used car seller as you have so many entitled tts, frankly - think they can spend £2-5k on a Jupiter mile ex rep mobile and then get a full refund 3 months later when they get a check engine light.
No wonder so many people sell direct to trade via Car buying services or in PX - I'd happily take £500 less to avoid dealing with the general public as well!
The other worrying thing is that a few judges do seem to be awarding costs to buyers in these cases. You have to be very careful when writing a for sale advert these days.
No mention of "everything works", even if it does. "Very reliable etc" - dangerous, when it breaks down 2 years after selling it, you get a LBA on your doorstep.
You can get away with "no known faults, But I'm not a mechanic, so if you want to bring your own inspection then please arrange"
It’s shocking to be honest put me off selling privately! If people are truly like this I might just buy a M3 or M5 not pay to get rod bearings done then hammer it until they finally go and claim against the seller! That’s how ridiculous it soundsThere was the chap who didn't have a warranty on his C43 AMG bought from a dealer,, did 30k miles over 2-3 years in it without problem, then it spat a rod out and he went crying because he didn't have a warranty
I recall also, another chap who bought an Insignia privately I think it was? Paid money for it either unseen, or didn't look at it properly (can't remember) and it developed a death rattle on the drive home (but was fine on the test drive!!)
Because the private seller had used words to the effect of "a garage has given it a check over" (what this actually meant was never flushed out I believe, but no check covers inspection of rod bearings...) many posters also felt that he was entitled to a full refund from the private seller.
It's a very worrying time to be a private used car seller as you have so many entitled t
ts, frankly - think they can spend £2-5k on a Jupiter mile ex rep mobile and then get a full refund 3 months later when they get a check engine light.No wonder so many people sell direct to trade via Car buying services or in PX - I'd happily take £500 less to avoid dealing with the general public as well!
The other worrying thing is that a few judges do seem to be awarding costs to buyers in these cases. You have to be very careful when writing a for sale advert these days.
No mention of "everything works", even if it does. "Very reliable etc" - dangerous, when it breaks down 2 years after selling it, you get a LBA on your doorstep.
You can get away with "no known faults, But I'm not a mechanic, so if you want to bring your own inspection then please arrange"
QJumper said:
dhutch said:
Yeah I don't know, I know a lot of people with newish leased cars that might, but otherwise I don't know many people with a warranty of any sort on an older car.
That's possibly because often the only warranties available on older cars are third party ones, which people don't trust.My car is 12 years old/100k+ miles and worth somewhere between £10-13k, and I have an extended warranty on it, but only because it's a manufacturers one. If that wasn't available to me I'd do without rather than go third party.
I've got a 21yo 3 series I've had six years, all service intervals stamped by a mixed of indys, and only done 185k, hasn't wanted for anything in my ownership, but obviously also a country mile from full dealer service history.
Panamax said:
BAMoFo said:
Age is as much, if not more, of a factor in timing belt failure than mileage.
Ships, aircraft, generators and agricultural machinery measure engine hours and not distance travelled. In the case of a car used in a city it might have massive engine hours with a pretty low mileage. Hence the either/or of age/mileage. One of my "things" is that if you have a good understanding of your car's use cycle you can vary appropriately from the manufacturer's service schedule with very little risk. However age in calendar years is also very valid for rubber components, which includes the cambelt and was I think the other posters comment.
dhutch said:
Would be interested to know what your extended warranty costs, what it covers, what you need to uphold it, and if the car's been in your ownership long term.
I've got a 21yo 3 series I've had six years, all service intervals stamped by a mixed of indys, and only done 185k, hasn't wanted for anything in my ownership, but obviously also a country mile from full dealer service history.
No problem. The warranty is provided direct from Lexus (10yr plus extended warranty) for cars over 10yrs/100k miles up to 15yrs/150k miles. Cost varies by model, mine's an RX 450h and costs around £550 a year, which includes UK and European breakdown cover (AA provided).I've got a 21yo 3 series I've had six years, all service intervals stamped by a mixed of indys, and only done 185k, hasn't wanted for anything in my ownership, but obviously also a country mile from full dealer service history.
I've had the car a year and warranty was approved following inspection/authorisation from dealer. You need to have it serviced by Lexus during the warranty period as a condition. I've had a quick look and here's what it covers:
Obviously it doesn't cover corrosion or collison damage, nor wear and tear items/consumables such as brake pads, tyres, battery, fluids etc. It doesn't cover the multimedia system unless it affects the operation of anything else like aircon, parking assist etc. It seems to cover everything else though, engine, transmission, suspension, electrics, lights (excluding bulbs) brake components (excluding pads), and covers for replacement of non excluded parts/consumables that cause an MOT failure.
It seems pretty comprehensive and good value to me, and worth it for the peace of mind.
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