RE: Audi A8 LWB W12 | The Brave Pill
Discussion
AmyRichardson said:
VAG in that era wasn't anything like as commonality-crazy/brand-engineered as they became through the 2000s, they loved developing kooky niche models. And that makes their unbending commitment to FWD-style drivetrains seen very odd; the whole W12 story just seems like engineering compromise covering for engineering compromise, rather than something clever of itself.
With the resources to hand, and the brands they could have extended it to, they could have made a proper, big-car RWD platform to underpin everything from the A6 upwards.
Agree completely. “Engineering compromise covering for engineering compromise” nails it.With the resources to hand, and the brands they could have extended it to, they could have made a proper, big-car RWD platform to underpin everything from the A6 upwards.
Very odd indeed that they crippled so many cars with that ridiculous layout given the resources they pissed away on nonsense like W8 engines for Passats.
AmyRichardson said:
stickleback123 said:
Interesting engine that W12; it only exists in that odd format because Piech era VAG had to have a 12 cylinder engine if BMW and Mercedes did, but couldn't sensibly fit a proper V12 if they were to continue hanging the entire engine in front of the axle line. The W12 is about 2/3rds the length of a V12 (20" odd vs 30" for the BMW N73 or Mercedes M275). As this article points out the refinement was well off the pace for a 12 cylinder as a consequence, and it was always more about willy waving (or at least being able to get yours out with the big boys) than sound engineering practise.
Still, more is always better but I'd only want to run one of these at throwaway money; Tales abound of engine out jobs for the most trivial issue on W12 cars across the VAG stable, a friend worked as a Bentley tech and tells me they had loads of those hydraulic tables for removing engines and they were always fully utilised!
Imagine trying to mount a full length quarter of a ton 80cm long V12 in the nose like that and having to extend your already large front overhang by another foot.
VAG in that era wasn't anything like as commonality-crazy/brand-engineered as they became through the 2000s, they loved developing kooky niche models. And that makes their unbending commitment to FWD-style drivetrains seen very odd; the whole W12 story just seems like engineering compromise covering for engineering compromise, rather than something clever of itself.Still, more is always better but I'd only want to run one of these at throwaway money; Tales abound of engine out jobs for the most trivial issue on W12 cars across the VAG stable, a friend worked as a Bentley tech and tells me they had loads of those hydraulic tables for removing engines and they were always fully utilised!
Imagine trying to mount a full length quarter of a ton 80cm long V12 in the nose like that and having to extend your already large front overhang by another foot.
With the resources to hand, and the brands they could have extended it to, they could have made a proper, big-car RWD platform to underpin everything from the A6 upwards.
They apparently made the B8 A4 handle too well and dialled it back to a more neutral feel as it didn’t “feel Audi enough”.
Audi and by extension VW have/had oodles of cash buy selling upmarket FWD (and bias 4WD) cars where the competition were still using bespoke and expensive to design/manufacture RWD platforms. No wonder they could splurge on W-configuration engines.
The first point RE BMW Mercedes V12 - it was BMW with the 2nd 7 Series E32 and Mercedes delayed the W140 so they could design their own 12 cyl. The Phaeton was an attack on Mercedes as they thought they were stealing sales for selling Golf sized MB hatchbacks.
Dombilano said:
Every LWB version of a car looks like it was the result of a paper jam in the printer, as it was printing the rear doors.
I think a lot of them look much more sleek than their SWB counterparts, as the glasshouse looks (proportionally) shallower.The current Jaguar XJ carries the LWB look off very well. (The Rover 75 LWB less so
)akashzimzimma said:
Completely outclassed and outgunned by the more comfortable yet faster and smoother V12 W221s. The W12 being 2 VR6 lacks the refinement and sound of a V12 , and this one being NA being far loss torquey than the S600.
Apples to oranges.The D3 A8’s contemporary was the shockingly poor rust bucket W220. The D3 runs rings around that. W221 is a generation on so not a sensible comparison.
Additionally, the S600 variant was priced more inline with VAG’s super premium product line , the Bentley Flying Spur which completely outclasses any top end S-class.
The D8 was in production 2002 - 2010 so it came out competing with the (s
t) W220 S Class, E38 7 series (just), X308 Jaguar XJ (just) as you say but the 7 series and XJ were replaced at about the same time and the S class was replaced right in the middle of that production run.
As much as I hate the W220, and I really do, I'd still have had the 2003 onwards biturbo S600 over a D3 W12 A8 without a moments thought though, and the W221 S Class in 2006 made every other barge look "a bit crap" overnight; you'd have to really like cars that look like upturned bathtubs and drive like a hippo in a shopping trolley to buy a W12 A8 over a W221 S600 with it's 510bhp and 830NM monster engine and active hydraulic suspension.
A Flying Spur was 50%+ more than an S600.
t) W220 S Class, E38 7 series (just), X308 Jaguar XJ (just) as you say but the 7 series and XJ were replaced at about the same time and the S class was replaced right in the middle of that production run.As much as I hate the W220, and I really do, I'd still have had the 2003 onwards biturbo S600 over a D3 W12 A8 without a moments thought though, and the W221 S Class in 2006 made every other barge look "a bit crap" overnight; you'd have to really like cars that look like upturned bathtubs and drive like a hippo in a shopping trolley to buy a W12 A8 over a W221 S600 with it's 510bhp and 830NM monster engine and active hydraulic suspension.
A Flying Spur was 50%+ more than an S600.
Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 2nd November 23:14
I don’t think you realize just how expensive the S-class 600 variants are, and what it’s consequent competitors are. The W220 S600 was over £140k, and the the W221 almost £150k! Gen 1 Bentley flying spur (04-12) started at £130k. So it’s very much a competitor to the S600, yet is in a completely different league.
The D3 A8 W12 was a low-£80k car, in-line with the ‘cooking’ V8 S500, which the W12 absolutely trounces, particularly the W220. Less so the W221, simply by virtue of it being a generation newer. But you still couldn’t get 12-cylinders and AWD from Merc, at any price.
By all means, keep mis-comparing it to the almost 80% more expensive S600 that might be ‘better’ in some respects. But so it damn well obviously should be! Compare the S600 to its true rivals though, such as the Flying Spur, and there’s simply no contest.
Screenshots from parkers.co.uk
The D3 A8 W12 was a low-£80k car, in-line with the ‘cooking’ V8 S500, which the W12 absolutely trounces, particularly the W220. Less so the W221, simply by virtue of it being a generation newer. But you still couldn’t get 12-cylinders and AWD from Merc, at any price.
By all means, keep mis-comparing it to the almost 80% more expensive S600 that might be ‘better’ in some respects. But so it damn well obviously should be! Compare the S600 to its true rivals though, such as the Flying Spur, and there’s simply no contest.
Screenshots from parkers.co.uk
Edited by dvs_dave on Thursday 3rd November 04:20
Regardless, 12-cylinder S-classes are *a lot* more expensive than 12-cylinder Audi’s, pushing them into a league above where they don’t really cut the mustard.
It was a choice of W12 or S500, or S600/S65 or a Bentley, etc. Much harder choice, even for bangernomic fanboi’s like us. And that’s a whole other topic, where the big Benz’s definitely fare much worse.
It was a choice of W12 or S500, or S600/S65 or a Bentley, etc. Much harder choice, even for bangernomic fanboi’s like us. And that’s a whole other topic, where the big Benz’s definitely fare much worse.
stickleback123 said:
Agree completely. “Engineering compromise covering for engineering compromise” nails it.
Very odd indeed that they crippled so many cars with that ridiculous layout given the resources they pissed away on nonsense like W8 engines for Passats.
Yet said “compromises” allowed Audi to be able to offer 6, 8, and 12-cylinders, and AWD in both left and right hand drive formats for decades, as well as an overall shorter, lighter vehicle for the same interior room.Very odd indeed that they crippled so many cars with that ridiculous layout given the resources they pissed away on nonsense like W8 engines for Passats.
It’s only recently that the competition has figured out how to do that. And then it’s with AWD systems that have leak and failure prone combined diff/oil-pan setups that due to clearance issues, are undersized and often not RHD compatible. Also, because they’re undersized they have to be significantly torque limited so as to not prematurely grenade themselves. Look at the difference in the respective size of front diffs to see it first hand.
Ok, not as good for weight distribution and ultimate handling balance, but who’s chasing lap times or doing B-road blasts in an LWB saloon? No one is, so in terms of compromises that matter in the real world, rather than in your head, it’s probably a compromise that’s worth it. Besides, if you want a full-sized very fast/sporty saloon, VAG group does that better elsewhere in the range. Porsche Panamera, or it’s (now) platform mate the Bentley Flying Spur.
With the S-class Mercedes is trying to cover all bases with one product line. Taxi to super luxury. They’re the best in the business in the middle of that range, but at the extremes it’s too compromised, and there’s much better options out there for the money.
Interesting thread this, but some people are comparing limousines with sports saloons. The 'Transformer' film W12 car was probably the rare SWB sport quattro (they only made about 1400 of them) not the longer, higher, differently geared LWB limo featured here - a very different car. The sport's ZF box and final drive was geared for stunning off-the-mark and mid range acceleration, eventually pulling only 30mph per 1000rpm in 6th.
Leveret said:
Interesting thread this, but some people are comparing limousines with sports saloons. The 'Transformer' film W12 car was probably the rare SWB sport quattro (they only made about 1400 of them) not the longer, higher, differently geared LWB limo featured here - a very different car. The sport's ZF box and final drive was geared for stunning off-the-mark and mid range acceleration, eventually pulling only 30mph per 1000rpm in 6th.
Transporter?Probably still a meh sport saloon; Audi must be p1$$ed that VW precluded them from using the MSB for the A8, the model cycle was cock-on for getting the new platform!
AmyRichardson said:
Leveret said:
Interesting thread this, but some people are comparing limousines with sports saloons. The 'Transformer' film W12 car was probably the rare SWB sport quattro (they only made about 1400 of them) not the longer, higher, differently geared LWB limo featured here - a very different car. The sport's ZF box and final drive was geared for stunning off-the-mark and mid range acceleration, eventually pulling only 30mph per 1000rpm in 6th.
Transporter?Probably still a meh sport saloon; Audi must be p1$$ed that VW precluded them from using the MSB for the A8, the model cycle was cock-on for getting the new platform!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25GJE34LP40&ab...
....only produced for about a year around 2004/5. I don't think the MSB comment is relevant as according to Wiki the MSB platform originated in 2016. The 2005 D3 W12 has the excellent all aluminium Audi spaceframe which, together with aluminium subframes, is reassuringly corrosion free approaching 20yrs old.
The much pricier and heavier S600 (£93k as opposed to £72K according to my Juhe 2005 'Top Gear' mag) may have had more power on paper, but putting it all on the road and being nimble round corners with only two driven wheels would I guess be a challenge - especially when raining.
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