RE: 2023 Alpine A110 R | PH Review
Discussion
Rob.043 said:
Not much. But if you come from a car with poor aero performance that has say -20kg of lift on that bend, and then you are in a car with + 50kg, then it ought to be feeling noticeably more stable.
but lift at the front end might still be destabilising.for sure, on road cars the ideal is too eliminate lift. downforce is for the racetrack. But that's not a powerful marketing message!
Paul_M3 said:
Water Fairy said:
Terminator X said:
Water Fairy said:
Is 1100kgs really that light weight given the effort put into it?
I seem to remember back in 2005 my EP3 CTR was 1204kgs out the box.
I know cars have generally got heavier partly due to regs and safety etc but even so.
Genuine question.
Cars were lighter 20 years ago you say.I seem to remember back in 2005 my EP3 CTR was 1204kgs out the box.
I know cars have generally got heavier partly due to regs and safety etc but even so.
Genuine question.
TX.
I imagine the A110 has a significantly better interior, is better equipped, has more sound deadening, and passes modern crash tests that my Exige wouldn't.
Ok, my Exige has a V6 but even so, I would say yes, its weight is quite impressive.
From what i've looked at i was pleased to see an OG M2 weighed about 20kg less than an E46 M3, despite being much the same size. The M2 is a good bit wider (as wide as an F82 M4 funnily), albeit slightly shorter iirc. But compared to an alpine it is a heavy car being over 400kg more. But it can carry rear seat passengers because it is vastly bigger and the extra track and wheelbase dimensions help massively in hiding the weight. But to be a more capable car than an E46, about the same size and be lighter after 20 years seems good going.
Any way, a bit more focussed on Water Fairy's point, an EP3 was about there for weight, is it still impressive in that comparison. I try to view a cars weight as a result of the compromises that are made. So imagine developing an EP3 in to an A110 and engineering in various aspects of the car change the weight. Take away the extra passenger and luggage space the EP3 has should save weight. But then it is put back against the improved chassis stiffness and its power advantage. A turbo engine with auto gearbox surely being heavier than the mighty honda engine. More cooling, more weight, more power needing more brakes. Add an improved crash structure and a particle filter in the exhaust and you need some fancy materials in panels here and there to have that weight under the position of an older car.
Rob.043 said:
From what i've looked at i was pleased to see an OG M2 weighed about 20kg less than an E46 M3, despite being much the same size.
There seems no chance to me that an OG M2 is lighter than an E46 M3, like you say they are a similar size and similarly equipped, but the M2 is adding a turbocharger, intercoolers and associated pipework. Weight comparisons are fraught with errors, like not comparing like-for-like, as dry weight, no fuel+passengers weight, DIN/unladen weight, EU kerb weight and EU WLTP kerb weight are all different. Dry weight (no driver, no luggage, no fuel/oils/battery acid/washer fluid/brake fluid) might be 200kg less than correctly measured EU WLTP weight.Olivera said:
Rob.043 said:
From what i've looked at i was pleased to see an OG M2 weighed about 20kg less than an E46 M3, despite being much the same size.
There seems no chance to me that an OG M2 is lighter than an E46 M3, like you say they are a similar size and similarly equipped, but the M2 is adding a turbocharger, intercoolers and associated pipework. Weight comparisons are fraught with errors, like not comparing like-for-like, as dry weight, no fuel+passengers weight, DIN/unladen weight, EU kerb weight and EU WLTP kerb weight are all different. Dry weight (no driver, no luggage, no fuel/oils/battery acid/washer fluid/brake fluid) might be 200kg less than correctly measured EU WLTP weight.If i checked i bet the M2 is marginally down on luggage and passenger space
Rob.043 said:
It came from having the cars on the same weighbridge. Albeit years apart. Both manual with no sunroof. The E46 had a steel block on the S54, so the aluminium of the N55 must offset the weight of a turbo and intercooler. I think i'm right in saying the M2 has an aluminium front subframe which was a steel item on the E46. Rear suspension is a little more aluminium based too. The E46 might have more sound deadening as there is a comment in articles that the M2 lost 10kg of the stuff compared to the 235i. It'll just be some little things leaving that small difference.
If i checked i bet the M2 is marginally down on luggage and passenger space
Were both cars weighed under exactly the same conditions, that is no drivers/passengers and exactly the same fuel/luggage load? I guess it may well be close between these cars. Shows how outstanding a job Alpine have done on this A110R to get it to weigh 1082kg, less than an Exige V6 but more practical and with significantly better interior and equipment.If i checked i bet the M2 is marginally down on luggage and passenger space
Olivera said:
There seems no chance to me that an OG M2 is lighter than an E46 M3, like you say they are a similar size and similarly equipped, but the M2 is adding a turbocharger, intercoolers and associated pipework. Weight comparisons are fraught with errors, like not comparing like-for-like, as dry weight, no fuel+passengers weight, DIN/unladen weight, EU kerb weight and EU WLTP kerb weight are all different. Dry weight (no driver, no luggage, no fuel/oils/battery acid/washer fluid/brake fluid) might be 200kg less than correctly measured EU WLTP weight.
They're both officially 1,495kgs DIN in manual. What I can't tell you is whether BMW lie more or less than in the past...Rob.043 said:
Olivera said:
Rob.043 said:
From what i've looked at i was pleased to see an OG M2 weighed about 20kg less than an E46 M3, despite being much the same size.
There seems no chance to me that an OG M2 is lighter than an E46 M3, like you say they are a similar size and similarly equipped, but the M2 is adding a turbocharger, intercoolers and associated pipework. Weight comparisons are fraught with errors, like not comparing like-for-like, as dry weight, no fuel+passengers weight, DIN/unladen weight, EU kerb weight and EU WLTP kerb weight are all different. Dry weight (no driver, no luggage, no fuel/oils/battery acid/washer fluid/brake fluid) might be 200kg less than correctly measured EU WLTP weight.If i checked i bet the M2 is marginally down on luggage and passenger space
TX.
Edit - oops mine was M2C not the original.
Olivera said:
Shows how outstanding a job Alpine have done on this A110R to get it to weigh 1082kg, less than an Exige V6 but more practical and with significantly better interior and equipment.
true, although I guess the V6 with all its parts and charger and so on, alone is heavier ten such tiny i4 wit a turbo and stuf.Then it would be better to compare the Exige before it went V6 and compare that weight with the Alpine, say a 240s vs a base A110 with 250
what do those 2 weight comparing to each other?
GTRene said:
true, although I guess the V6 with all its parts and charger and so on, alone is heavier ten such tiny i4 wit a turbo and stuf.
Then it would be better to compare the Exige before it went V6 and compare that weight with the Alpine, say a 240s vs a base A110 with 250
what do those 2 weight comparing to each other?
rear subframe too. non-V6 Exige is just over 1000kgsThen it would be better to compare the Exige before it went V6 and compare that weight with the Alpine, say a 240s vs a base A110 with 250
what do those 2 weight comparing to each other?
V6 is a separate car, wider and just a little bit more of a beast...
Olivera said:
Rob.043 said:
It came from having the cars on the same weighbridge. Albeit years apart. Both manual with no sunroof. The E46 had a steel block on the S54, so the aluminium of the N55 must offset the weight of a turbo and intercooler. I think i'm right in saying the M2 has an aluminium front subframe which was a steel item on the E46. Rear suspension is a little more aluminium based too. The E46 might have more sound deadening as there is a comment in articles that the M2 lost 10kg of the stuff compared to the 235i. It'll just be some little things leaving that small difference.
If i checked i bet the M2 is marginally down on luggage and passenger space
Were both cars weighed under exactly the same conditions, that is no drivers/passengers and exactly the same fuel/luggage load? I guess it may well be close between these cars. Shows how outstanding a job Alpine have done on this A110R to get it to weigh 1082kg, less than an Exige V6 but more practical and with significantly better interior and equipment.If i checked i bet the M2 is marginally down on luggage and passenger space
The NVH comfort and ease of use that i imagine the Alpine holds over the Exige does make it seem an impressive weight. But i think catering to a powerful engine can add a lot of weight, so I think the extra hundred or so horsepower's would explain the difference. It all seems as it should then when a 220 elise is under a tonne with the power and refinement it has.
I've a Skoda octavia mk3, TDi VRS estate weighing 1440kg by the same measure and it amazes me how light it is for all the space it has. So I see it as requirements of dealing with the M2's power and rear drive layout that make it so much heavier than the more spacious car.
I'd like a 5 series touring instead at times, but don't like the idea of an extra 300+ kg for the similar space.
Rob.043 said:
Yes both cars were empty of luggage with a full tank of fuel to let me make the comparison. I've weighed all cars the same way.
Thanks Rob. That finally puts the question to bed as another Pher argued ad nauseam that the E46 was 100kgs lighter despite the identical DIN. I think he was making weird extrapolations from race and track versions of both.Paul_M3 said:
It's the same weight as my Exige 410, which has an aluminium tub, fibreglass body, carbon roof, carbon rear hatch and carbon front panel.
I imagine the A110 has a significantly better interior, is better equipped, has more sound deadening, and passes modern crash tests that my Exige wouldn't.
Ok, my Exige has a V6 but even so, I would say yes, its weight is quite impressive.
That was my thought; it's 100kg closer to a run-out Elise than it is to a Cayman, yet it's on par with the Cayman in terms of usability and refinement.I imagine the A110 has a significantly better interior, is better equipped, has more sound deadening, and passes modern crash tests that my Exige wouldn't.
Ok, my Exige has a V6 but even so, I would say yes, its weight is quite impressive.
n1colas said:
Having previously owned a Cayman GT4, two Lotus Exige V6 and now having an A110S I could not agree more. All three cars are great on their own but are quite different in character and usage. The Exige is very raw and a genuine Event for Sunday morning drives (or alike) but frankly quite annoying as a more daily proposition (in my view at least). The Cayman is kind of the opposite, perfectly usable on a daily basis (mind you a GT4 is loud at Motorway speeds) but and this is of course very personal a little uninspiring for road usage, so much I went back to an Exige as I missed its rawness.
In the meantime I was looking for something that would best fit both world and the Alpine is in my view the only newly available car offering this. In fact I see the Alpine positioned somewhere in between Exige and Cayman. Less raw than the former but more exciting than the latter, no doubt thanks to its lightness.
Same as it ever was then with the (modern) A110. The Exige is perfectly usable on the road, but it's not practical. You can't park it anywhere and not expect to get a lot of attention, welcome or otherwise. You can't get out of it if there are only tight parking spaces and minor traffic incidents can result in an insurance write off if someone reserves into you causing uneconomical to repair damage to the clams that who knows how long or otherwise will still be available as parts... In the meantime I was looking for something that would best fit both world and the Alpine is in my view the only newly available car offering this. In fact I see the Alpine positioned somewhere in between Exige and Cayman. Less raw than the former but more exciting than the latter, no doubt thanks to its lightness.
A cayman can be parked anywhere and a GT4 will attract attention from those in the know, but not from most people.
The Alpine always was and by the sounds of it, this version still is, somewhere between the two in terms of boring real world usability and it's ability to thrill on the right road. As such it's a very, very desirable sports car for many.
Also, from the article:
But, honestly, as evidence of just how good a lightweight, ruthlessly focused, mid-engined, rear-drive car can be on circuit, there can’t be many - if any - better.
Crikey! Potentially the best handling car ever on track?!
The R’s ability to blend comfort and control - on this experience, at least - suggests it has no equal.
Crikey! The best handling car ever on road? Sell your GT4-RS now, quick!
That might be a poor choice of words and/or hyperbole, but it does sound like this sports car is very, very good.
I'd love one.
But I'd also love a standard A110, and a S1 Elise, and an NSX-R, and a ...lots of other things.
If however, you're a (modern) A110 fan and you want the ultimate keeper, this looks perfect.
Edited by sege on Tuesday 31st January 02:28
Had a good look around one today (at grand designs live bizarrely!), utterly fascinating little thing.
The finishing is utterly beyond most things around that price, and the doors feel feather light!
Committed Porsche guy here, nearly bought a GT4 in the summer but this makes one of those feel utterly mundane.
The carbon detailing is beautiful but I wouldn’t want to put it in a gravel trap (nor curb a wheel). Standard car on display along with an F1 show car so a good turn out-available to order with immediate delivery according to the girl in the stand too.
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