RE: Final EU vote on 2035 engine phaseout delayed
Discussion
Strangely Brown said:
There are well respected climate scientists who actually worked on the IPCC reports and have given plenty of details and reasoning but you [the royal you] dismiss them as shills, crackpots and conspiracy theorists so why the hell are you going to listen to me. You can choose to listen to people who know what they are talking about and actually wrote the bloody reports or you can listen to government "experts" through the media and hysterical activists.
You make your choice. I'll make mine.
Ignoring the existence of any climate crisis or not I bought my EV simply because it was a better car than the vast majority of ICE alternatives. Given that we're arguably around EV version 1.1 and they're already better than ICE in most, but not all, respects then the future of widespread ICE use in the 1st world is pretty bloody bleak IMO. It's my sincere hope that if enough of us switch to EV's for the daily drive then the few of us who really care will be left alone to drive our ICE on occasion. If we don't switch voluntarily we will surely be forced out of them and never get to drive them. Leaving aside both arguments then basing our economies on the whim of OPEC+Russia going forward would seem particularly idiotic. But hey if taking a stand against climate change alarmism is your thing I guess you're probably going to ignore the other reasons why switching to EV's might be a good thing too.You make your choice. I'll make mine.
pheonix478 said:
Strangely Brown said:
There are well respected climate scientists who actually worked on the IPCC reports and have given plenty of details and reasoning but you [the royal you] dismiss them as shills, crackpots and conspiracy theorists so why the hell are you going to listen to me. You can choose to listen to people who know what they are talking about and actually wrote the bloody reports or you can listen to government "experts" through the media and hysterical activists.
You make your choice. I'll make mine.
Ignoring the existence of any climate crisis or not I bought my EV simply because it was a better car than the vast majority of ICE alternatives. Given that we're arguably around EV version 1.1 and they're already better than ICE in most, but not all, respects then the future of widespread ICE use in the 1st world is pretty bloody bleak IMO. It's my sincere hope that if enough of us switch to EV's for the daily drive then the few of us who really care will be left alone to drive our ICE on occasion. If we don't switch voluntarily we will surely be forced out of them and never get to drive them. Leaving aside both arguments then basing our economies on the whim of OPEC+Russia going forward would seem particularly idiotic. But hey if taking a stand against climate change alarmism is your thing I guess you're probably going to ignore the other reasons why switching to EV's might be a good thing too.You make your choice. I'll make mine.
As for EVs, I agree that there are some around now that are better than ICE cars in most, but not all ways. The problem that I have is that while I suspect that EV drive will be the way most private passenger cars will go I do not believe that batteries are the long term answer. They are good for many where there they fit they owners use profile. They are not good for many where they do not and batteries are no good for commercial transport so there will have to be an alternative. By extension, if there has to be an alternative in order to keep society living, working and eating then that alternative could easily be available for passenger cars. Time will tell which solutions are workable and which are not.
People will gravitate naturally towards things that are a benefit and work for them... and vice-versa.
For the record, I have an ICE toy and a Hybrid daily. I enjoy driving the hybrid in EV mode so I can appreciate that benefit of an EV. A full BEV will not work for me so I will not buy one.
Edited by Strangely Brown on Monday 3rd April 22:08
Strangely Brown said:
911hope said:
That's just a line that you have swallowed.
What is your thinking? What expertise did you apply while adopting your views.
Please be specific, otherwise you cannot be taken seriously.
There are well respected climate scientists who actually worked on the IPCC reports and have given plenty of details and reasoning but you [the royal you] dismiss them as shills, crackpots and conspiracy theorists so why the hell are you going to listen to me. You can choose to listen to people who know what they are talking about and actually wrote the bloody reports or you can listen to government "experts" through the media and hysterical activists.What is your thinking? What expertise did you apply while adopting your views.
Please be specific, otherwise you cannot be taken seriously.
You make your choice. I'll make mine.
Is that your position?
Did you come to that conclusion on your own, or did you just believe someone?
Strangely Brown said:
...if there has to be an alternative in order to keep society living, working and eating then that alternative could easily be available for passenger cars....
That doesn't follow at all. Fossil fuels aside, in a world where there is a finite supply of some kind of "green" fuel available to keep planes flying, ships sailing and HGV's running there's no reason there would be enough left over for passenger cars. Whilst an, admittedly imperfect, alternative exists for private transport in the form of BEV, we'll be at the back of the queue.911hope said:
Strangely Brown said:
911hope said:
That's just a line that you have swallowed.
What is your thinking? What expertise did you apply while adopting your views.
Please be specific, otherwise you cannot be taken seriously.
There are well respected climate scientists who actually worked on the IPCC reports and have given plenty of details and reasoning but you [the royal you] dismiss them as shills, crackpots and conspiracy theorists so why the hell are you going to listen to me. You can choose to listen to people who know what they are talking about and actually wrote the bloody reports or you can listen to government "experts" through the media and hysterical activists.What is your thinking? What expertise did you apply while adopting your views.
Please be specific, otherwise you cannot be taken seriously.
You make your choice. I'll make mine.
Is that your position?
Did you come to that conclusion on your own, or did you just believe someone?
Remember the whole of cycle efficiency of a synthetic fuel is around 10 x worse than a BEV. There has to be a pretty compelling reason to use it therefore.
Challenges in expanding the charging infrastructure and especially nostalgia for the sound, feel and smell of petrol drivetrains doesn’t even come close to meeting this threshold
Challenges in expanding the charging infrastructure and especially nostalgia for the sound, feel and smell of petrol drivetrains doesn’t even come close to meeting this threshold
Strangely Brown said:
911hope said:
Strangely Brown said:
911hope said:
That's just a line that you have swallowed.
What is your thinking? What expertise did you apply while adopting your views.
Please be specific, otherwise you cannot be taken seriously.
There are well respected climate scientists who actually worked on the IPCC reports and have given plenty of details and reasoning but you [the royal you] dismiss them as shills, crackpots and conspiracy theorists so why the hell are you going to listen to me. You can choose to listen to people who know what they are talking about and actually wrote the bloody reports or you can listen to government "experts" through the media and hysterical activists.What is your thinking? What expertise did you apply while adopting your views.
Please be specific, otherwise you cannot be taken seriously.
You make your choice. I'll make mine.
Is that your position?
Did you come to that conclusion on your own, or did you just believe someone?
dvs_dave said:
Strangely Brown said:
911hope said:
Strangely Brown said:
911hope said:
That's just a line that you have swallowed.
What is your thinking? What expertise did you apply while adopting your views.
Please be specific, otherwise you cannot be taken seriously.
There are well respected climate scientists who actually worked on the IPCC reports and have given plenty of details and reasoning but you [the royal you] dismiss them as shills, crackpots and conspiracy theorists so why the hell are you going to listen to me. You can choose to listen to people who know what they are talking about and actually wrote the bloody reports or you can listen to government "experts" through the media and hysterical activists.What is your thinking? What expertise did you apply while adopting your views.
Please be specific, otherwise you cannot be taken seriously.
You make your choice. I'll make mine.
Is that your position?
Did you come to that conclusion on your own, or did you just believe someone?
SpeckledJim said:
As usual. Lots of figures from the pro-EV crowd.
No figures and oblique appeals to distant authority from the pro-ICE crowd.
SB, why not take one of the numbers used in defence of EV and simply prove it wrong, if it’s wrong.
SB can only repeat what he has been taught.No figures and oblique appeals to distant authority from the pro-ICE crowd.
SB, why not take one of the numbers used in defence of EV and simply prove it wrong, if it’s wrong.
Won't justify it.
SpeckledJim said:
As usual. Lots of figures from the pro-EV crowd.
No figures and oblique appeals to distant authority from the pro-ICE crowd.
SB, why not take one of the numbers used in defence of EV and simply prove it wrong, if it’s wrong.
No figures and oblique appeals to distant authority from the pro-ICE crowd.
SB, why not take one of the numbers used in defence of EV and simply prove it wrong, if it’s wrong.
Where am I arguing against EVs? I said that a BEV is not a viable option for me, or many others. I have also said that I am not convinced that BEV will be the only option for private passenger vehicles in the future. I have also not said that I am pro-ICE other than that I am pro-whatever works best for the individual and I believe that, ultimately, the market will decide what wins because people will buy, or keep, that which works for them.Strangely Brown said:
SpeckledJim said:
As usual. Lots of figures from the pro-EV crowd.
No figures and oblique appeals to distant authority from the pro-ICE crowd.
SB, why not take one of the numbers used in defence of EV and simply prove it wrong, if it’s wrong.
No figures and oblique appeals to distant authority from the pro-ICE crowd.
SB, why not take one of the numbers used in defence of EV and simply prove it wrong, if it’s wrong.
Where am I arguing against EVs? I said that a BEV is not a viable option for me, or many others. I have also said that I am not convinced that BEV will be the only option for private passenger vehicles in the future. I have also not said that I am pro-ICE other than that I am pro-whatever works best for the individual and I believe that, ultimately, the market will decide what wins because people will buy, or keep, that which works for them.Strangely Brown said:
Where am I arguing against EVs? I said that a BEV is not a viable option for me, or many others. I have also said that I am not convinced that BEV will be the only option for private passenger vehicles in the future. I have also not said that I am pro-ICE other than that I am pro-whatever works best for the individual and I believe that, ultimately, the market will decide what wins because people will buy, or keep, that which works for them.starsky67 said:
Strangely Brown said:
Where am I arguing against EVs? I said that a BEV is not a viable option for me, or many others. I have also said that I am not convinced that BEV will be the only option for private passenger vehicles in the future. I have also not said that I am pro-ICE other than that I am pro-whatever works best for the individual and I believe that, ultimately, the market will decide what wins because people will buy, or keep, that which works for them.Strangely Brown said:
That is just politics. Politicians change. Political agendas change to suit whatever the politicians think will either gain or keep them in power the longest. It has always been thus so, yes, the market will decide.
Yes they do, but there is unlikely to be any change before the next election and if as likely Labour win, neither is there likely to be a change after.In practical terms considering product cycles and development times therefore the shift to essentially 100% of new cars becoming EV is already settled (remember at least 80% by 2030 need to be full EV not hybrid so there’s less incentive for manufacturers to invest in hybrids that will be sold to 20% of the market for a maximum of 5 years until 2035)
Strangely Brown said:
There are well respected climate scientists who actually worked on the IPCC reports and have given plenty of details and reasoning but you [the royal you] dismiss them as shills, crackpots and conspiracy theorists so why the hell are you going to listen to me. You can choose to listen to people who know what they are talking about and actually wrote the bloody reports or you can listen to government "experts" through the media and hysterical activists.
You make your choice. I'll make mine.
On the bolded bit - you have chosen to listen to the voices that say what you want to hear. On deciding on which voices you listen to, you aren't applying any more logic or intellect than the people who are accepting the consensus views.You make your choice. I'll make mine.
Have you considered why some people are being dismissed as shills/crackpots etc? It might just be because they are!
starsky67 said:
Yes they do, but there is unlikely to be any change before the next election and if as likely Labour win, neither is there likely to be a change after.
In practical terms considering product cycles and development times therefore the shift to essentially 100% of new cars becoming EV is already settled (remember at least 80% by 2030 need to be full EV not hybrid so there’s less incentive for manufacturers to invest in hybrids that will be sold to 20% of the market for a maximum of 5 years until 2035)
But 100% of new cars will not be EV. Manufacturers cater to more markets than the UK and EU and not all of them are ditching ICE and Hybrids. The cars will still be built, even if they are not sold here and it will be a long time before many parts of the world are ready for EVs. Political views and government policies are very fickle and if the public mood swings a particular way enough then the government will follow if they want to stay in power. Apart from dictatorships that is always the case.In practical terms considering product cycles and development times therefore the shift to essentially 100% of new cars becoming EV is already settled (remember at least 80% by 2030 need to be full EV not hybrid so there’s less incentive for manufacturers to invest in hybrids that will be sold to 20% of the market for a maximum of 5 years until 2035)
Edited by Strangely Brown on Tuesday 4th April 13:29
braddo said:
Strangely Brown said:
There are well respected climate scientists who actually worked on the IPCC reports and have given plenty of details and reasoning but you [the royal you] dismiss them as shills, crackpots and conspiracy theorists so why the hell are you going to listen to me. You can choose to listen to people who know what they are talking about and actually wrote the bloody reports or you can listen to government "experts" through the media and hysterical activists.
You make your choice. I'll make mine.
On the bolded bit - you have chosen to listen to the voices that say what you want to hear.You make your choice. I'll make mine.
braddo said:
On deciding on which voices you listen to, you aren't applying any more logic or intellect than the people who are accepting the consensus views
...as opposed to the people who blindly accept the political summaries and the activists? They are told there is a consensus, so they accept that there is.Everyone, including you, takes their information from the sources that they deem most credible and they form their opinions and make their decisions based on that.
If new information comes along that gives me cause to change my mind then I will.
Strangely Brown said:
But 100% of new cars will not be EV. Manufacturers cater to more markets than the UK and EU and not all of them are ditching ICE and Hybrids. The cars will still be built, even if they are not sold here and it will be a long time before many parts of the world are ready for EVs. Political views and government policies are very fickle and if the public mood swings that way enough then the government will follow if they want to stay in power. Apart from dictatorships that is always the case.
But would you as a manufacturer bother with 20% of the UK market for a maximum of 5 years or just pull out of Ice in the UK by 2030. That's what I suspect most manufacturers will do.starsky67 said:
Strangely Brown said:
But 100% of new cars will not be EV. Manufacturers cater to more markets than the UK and EU and not all of them are ditching ICE and Hybrids. The cars will still be built, even if they are not sold here and it will be a long time before many parts of the world are ready for EVs. Political views and government policies are very fickle and if the public mood swings that way enough then the government will follow if they want to stay in power. Apart from dictatorships that is always the case.
But would you as a manufacturer bother with 20% of the UK market for a maximum of 5 years or just pull out of Ice in the UK by 2030. That's what I suspect most manufacturers will do.I am pretty sure that the world is not going to look like you think it will in the future. The drive to Net-Zero is not going to play out like they think it will.
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