RE: Final EU vote on 2035 engine phaseout delayed
Discussion
SpeckledJim said:
500TORQUES said:
SpeckledJim said:
500TORQUES said:
tamore said:
once ICE car use hits a certain level, fuel stations will close. importing cars after that point may be possible, but re enabling the fuelling network probably not.
Can i borrow your crystal ball please?We are a long way from tradional fuel being unavailable and based on the government plans for hydrogen roll out by 2035, you'll likely see tradional fuel stations diversify to provide current liquid and hydrogen for goods vehicles.
You own a petrol station. How many Toyota Mirais do you need to see driving past (or stranded at the side of the road) before you decide to invest a gigantic fortune in equipping your petrol station to sell hydrogen?
500TORQUES said:
SpeckledJim said:
500TORQUES said:
SpeckledJim said:
500TORQUES said:
tamore said:
once ICE car use hits a certain level, fuel stations will close. importing cars after that point may be possible, but re enabling the fuelling network probably not.
Can i borrow your crystal ball please?We are a long way from tradional fuel being unavailable and based on the government plans for hydrogen roll out by 2035, you'll likely see tradional fuel stations diversify to provide current liquid and hydrogen for goods vehicles.
You own a petrol station. How many Toyota Mirais do you need to see driving past (or stranded at the side of the road) before you decide to invest a gigantic fortune in equipping your petrol station to sell hydrogen?
Hydrogen isn't going to rescue the business case for most petrol stations. If there are no hydrogen cars, then there's no case for it for most retailers.
SpeckledJim said:
Do you think many petrol stations are going to get equipped to supply hydrogen, just to supply HGVs? The vast majority will leave the market to a relative few, large stations on motorways and trunk roads.
Hydrogen isn't going to rescue the business case for most petrol stations. If there are no hydrogen cars, then there's no case for it for most retailers.
Well done, you got there in the end. There will be enough fuel demand and diversification to keep fuel stations going for a very long time. You might want to look into the government plans for long term hydrogen too, it's going to play a major role in our energy supply.Hydrogen isn't going to rescue the business case for most petrol stations. If there are no hydrogen cars, then there's no case for it for most retailers.
tamore said:
problem is that government plans and physics disagree. i'm siding with physics.
Hydrogen is a major area for expansion in the future, the EU is backing it to help transition from oil and gas, it's become far more important since Russia shot it's feet off.UK is the perfect place for it with the expansion of renewables.
500TORQUES said:
Hydrogen is a major area for expansion in the future, the EU is backing it to help transition from oil and gas, it's become far more important since Russia shot it's feet off.
UK is the perfect place for it with the expansion of renewables.
Are you suggesting the uk will have loads of excess renewable energy to spend on hydrogen?UK is the perfect place for it with the expansion of renewables.
500TORQUES said:
tamore said:
problem is that government plans and physics disagree. i'm siding with physics.
Hydrogen is a major area for expansion in the future, the EU is backing it to help transition from oil and gas, it's become far more important since Russia shot it's feet off.UK is the perfect place for it with the expansion of renewables.
so the thing that isn't clear to me is what is meant exactly by 'it's going to play a major role in our energy supply'?
serious question, as the statement is a ridiculously broad brush.
and, we currently have circa 30GW of total renewable capacity (wind and solar), which provides 20-25% of current supply. so if demand stays exactly as it is today, this has to expand to 120GW. but demand is going to soar with EVs and electrical home heating……… then commercial transition from gas to electricity………….
where's the excess to crack water into hydrogen and oxygen?
tamore said:
where's the excess to crack water into hydrogen and oxygen?
This is the fundamental problem with all of the low efficiency renewable pathways for a sector as large as passenger cars, in that any meaningful amount of energy available at the user end means the input energy is no longer something that can be achieved with excess, it essentially becomes the baseload.500TORQUES said:
braddo said:
Are you suggesting the uk will have loads of excess renewable energy to spend on hydrogen?
Yup, and Germany is ramping up to do the same with hydrogen Valleys. It's one or the other.
It needs to be used ONLY where it is a superior solution to batteries.
Otherwise the whole (renewable) house of cards crumbles.
There's not enough carbon fibre in the world for the fuel tanks either for it to be a mainstream option in road vehicles that require 700 bar rated tanks.
GT9 said:
Hydrogen can't be used for cars AND everywhere else in the UK.
It's one or the other.
It needs to be used ONLY where it is a superior solution to batteries.
Otherwise the whole (renewable) house of cards crumbles.
There's not enough carbon fibre in the world for the fuel tanks either for it to be a mainstream option in road vehicles that require 700 bar rated tanks.
Where did i mention cars?It's one or the other.
It needs to be used ONLY where it is a superior solution to batteries.
Otherwise the whole (renewable) house of cards crumbles.
There's not enough carbon fibre in the world for the fuel tanks either for it to be a mainstream option in road vehicles that require 700 bar rated tanks.
Hydrogen will be used as a blend with natural gas for industrial energy supply and will be a great option for heavy vehicles. When the wind doesn't blow, use hydrogen to power the grid.
Countries like Germany will die as an industrial entity without moving to alternate fuels at scale. They are already buggered, but could salvage something with this technology.
500TORQUES said:
Where did i mention cars?
Hydrogen will be used as a blend with natural gas for industrial energy supply and will be a great option for heavy vehicles. When the wind doesn't blow, use hydrogen to power the grid.
Countries like Germany will die as an industrial entity without moving to alternate fuels at scale. They are already buggered, but could salvage something with this technology.
Are you suggesting using electricity to generate hydrogen, then convert back to electricity to power the grid?Hydrogen will be used as a blend with natural gas for industrial energy supply and will be a great option for heavy vehicles. When the wind doesn't blow, use hydrogen to power the grid.
Countries like Germany will die as an industrial entity without moving to alternate fuels at scale. They are already buggered, but could salvage something with this technology.
What is the efficiency of this dual conversion relative to other storage methods?
500TORQUES said:
GT9 said:
Hydrogen can't be used for cars AND everywhere else in the UK.
It's one or the other.
It needs to be used ONLY where it is a superior solution to batteries.
Otherwise the whole (renewable) house of cards crumbles.
There's not enough carbon fibre in the world for the fuel tanks either for it to be a mainstream option in road vehicles that require 700 bar rated tanks.
Where did i mention cars?It's one or the other.
It needs to be used ONLY where it is a superior solution to batteries.
Otherwise the whole (renewable) house of cards crumbles.
There's not enough carbon fibre in the world for the fuel tanks either for it to be a mainstream option in road vehicles that require 700 bar rated tanks.
Hydrogen will be used as a blend with natural gas for industrial energy supply and will be a great option for heavy vehicles. When the wind doesn't blow, use hydrogen to power the grid.
Countries like Germany will die as an industrial entity without moving to alternate fuels at scale. They are already buggered, but could salvage something with this technology.
911hope said:
Are you suggesting using electricity to generate hydrogen, then convert back to electricity to power the grid?
What is the efficiency of this dual conversion relative to other storage methods?
Why not, if you have excess renewable energy, it's just another storage medium of useful energy which can be used for industrial processes and heavy vehicles.What is the efficiency of this dual conversion relative to other storage methods?
You can't use battery power to run a factory process that needs gas.
and there it is again, excess renewable energy…..
the odd few GWh is bugger all use, especially as for every GWh of excess renewable generation, you'll get perhaps 250MWh back, tops. better off building grid scale batteries to store that volume of energy.
i'd love to see a graph of predicted renewable capacity vs predicted electrical demand. where does the former start to significantly outstrip the latter? let alone catch it up.
the odd few GWh is bugger all use, especially as for every GWh of excess renewable generation, you'll get perhaps 250MWh back, tops. better off building grid scale batteries to store that volume of energy.
i'd love to see a graph of predicted renewable capacity vs predicted electrical demand. where does the former start to significantly outstrip the latter? let alone catch it up.
500TORQUES said:
GT9 said:
How does it save petrol stations then (if they need saving)?
Use it for goods vehicles, HGV in the places they fuel with diesel now. Pure hydrogen is not a substance you f
k about with, it bites very, very hard when you take too many liberties.To me it makes far more sense to store it well away from the general public or urban environments.
The refuelling should probably be done at base or at dedicated truck-only stations.
The first big hydrogen accident we have will shut the whole thing down for years when the public wake up and s
t their pants as to just how destructive the stuff is, like it did in Norway.The physical properties of hydrogen, including molecule size, flammability range and flame speed are very poorly understood.
There are for too many people for my liking thinking 'it's just like petrol.'
SpeckledJim said:
Let's go the other way round then.
You own a petrol station. How many Toyota Mirais do you need to see driving past (or stranded at the side of the road) before you decide to invest a gigantic fortune in equipping your petrol station to sell hydrogen?
ETA: it seems that, rounding to the nearest 300 cars, there are zero (!) Toyota Mirai on the road in the UK. Are you going to buy one to help the project along?
https://www.howmanyleft.co.uk/?q=mirai&commit=...
Or you own a petrol station and have seen the number of customers slowly declining. At what point do you decide to sell the very valuable land the petrol station is on to developers?You own a petrol station. How many Toyota Mirais do you need to see driving past (or stranded at the side of the road) before you decide to invest a gigantic fortune in equipping your petrol station to sell hydrogen?
ETA: it seems that, rounding to the nearest 300 cars, there are zero (!) Toyota Mirai on the road in the UK. Are you going to buy one to help the project along?
https://www.howmanyleft.co.uk/?q=mirai&commit=...
Edited by SpeckledJim on Wednesday 5th April 21:15
NMNeil said:
Or you own a petrol station and have seen the number of customers slowly declining. At what point do you decide to sell the very valuable land the petrol station is on to developers?
This, eventually as the number of EVs increase, fuel stations are going to need to diversify to maintain their revenues. I see many closing as they don't have the funds to invest, and others might turn into charging stations with a small onsite cafe and shop. Of course we will still have some petrol stations as there will still be a need for fuel, but there won't be as many as we have now. To me this is just common sense.There's going to come a point where there are more ICE vehicles being scrapped in a year than new ones are being built. At that point the market for petrol stations will only decline each and every year. We have three petrol stations in our town, eventually there won't be enough ICE customers to keep them all in business.
When I talk about petrol stations, I'm mainly talking about small supermarket and in town stations and not big service stations.
Edited by TheBinarySheep on Thursday 6th April 06:57
500TORQUES said:
911hope said:
Are you suggesting using electricity to generate hydrogen, then convert back to electricity to power the grid?
What is the efficiency of this dual conversion relative to other storage methods?
Why not, if you have excess renewable energy, it's just another storage medium of useful energy which can be used for industrial processes and heavy vehicles.What is the efficiency of this dual conversion relative to other storage methods?
You can't use battery power to run a factory process that needs gas.
How does hydrogen compare as a storage medium...real data please.
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