RE: Final EU vote on 2035 engine phaseout delayed
Discussion
NomduJour said:
Laudable. What else have you stopped consuming in the name of efficiency and the environment? How are you measuring the impact of your changes?
I'm not looking at it from a personal point of view, I'm looking at it from a wider perspective. If as a country we can do things more efficiently when there's a viable option, as a collective, why wouldn't we do that?Thankfully, just like with LED bulbs, 90% of the country can switch to an EV without it having any negative impact on their daily routine. Doing so leaves existing resources (petrol/diesel) available for the tools that really do require them, as the resources will last longer as a result. It's all about using the most appropriate tool for the job.
NomduJour said:
TheBinarySheep said:
For me, it's the ability to switch over to something more efficient, making use of the resources we have available to us. If we can replace something that's 20% efficient with something that's 90% efficient, then why wouldn't we do that? Just like me made the switch to LED bulbs. They still light up a room, but use less energy doing so.
Laudable. What else have you stopped consuming in the name of efficiency and the environment? How are you measuring the impact of your changes?Reducing energy consumption, getting the same from less is self-evidently a ‘good thing’, but you won’t have it, because you’re indignant about everything.
So why torment yourself? Keep driving your ICE. Be happy. Just ignore the whole thing.
TheBinarySheep said:
I'm not looking at it from a personal point of view, I'm looking at it from a wider perspective. If as a country we can do things more efficiently when there's a viable option, as a collective, why wouldn't we do that?
Thankfully, just like with LED bulbs, 90% of the country can switch to an EV without it having any negative impact on their daily routine. Doing so leaves existing resources (petrol/diesel) available for the tools that really do require them, as the resources will last longer as a result. It's all about using the most appropriate tool for the job.
There’s far more to it than energy efficiency at point of use, though - cars aren’t disposable lightbulbs, they’re resource/labour/capital-intensive products with long lifetimes. Thankfully, just like with LED bulbs, 90% of the country can switch to an EV without it having any negative impact on their daily routine. Doing so leaves existing resources (petrol/diesel) available for the tools that really do require them, as the resources will last longer as a result. It's all about using the most appropriate tool for the job.
As EVs become more prevalent, they will become more expensive to run; as petrol and diesel cars become less prevalent, they will become more expensive to run. There will be huge demands on natural resources whose processing and refining hasn’t had over a century to develop, huge costs for infrastructure installation, the planet’s biggest EV market is powered by coal and will be for decades etc.
The EU are preparing a draft modification to allow e-fuels, but it may not be what Germany wants.
"The draft proposal, seen by Reuters on Tuesday, suggests creating a new type of vehicle category in the European Union for cars that can only run on carbon neutral fuels.
Such vehicles would have to use technology that would prevent them from driving if other fuels are used, the draft said.
Two sources familiar with the matter said the Commission's condition that cars must be able to recognise CO2-neutral fuels from fossil fuels was problematic for Germany because it would largely force automakers to develop new engines.
E-fuels are made by synthesizing captured CO2 emissions and hydrogen produced using CO2-free electricity.They are not yet produced at scale. A study published on Tuesday by the Potsdam Institute for Climate Research found that all planned e-fuel projects worldwide would only produce enough fuel to cover 10% of Germany's demand for e-fuel use in aviation, shipping and chemicals in the next few years.
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportat...
And not every EU member is on board so It's going to get messy
https://fleetworld.co.uk/dont-backtrack-on-2035-ic...
https://www.politico.eu/article/renault-ceo-luca-d...
"The draft proposal, seen by Reuters on Tuesday, suggests creating a new type of vehicle category in the European Union for cars that can only run on carbon neutral fuels.
Such vehicles would have to use technology that would prevent them from driving if other fuels are used, the draft said.
Two sources familiar with the matter said the Commission's condition that cars must be able to recognise CO2-neutral fuels from fossil fuels was problematic for Germany because it would largely force automakers to develop new engines.
E-fuels are made by synthesizing captured CO2 emissions and hydrogen produced using CO2-free electricity.They are not yet produced at scale. A study published on Tuesday by the Potsdam Institute for Climate Research found that all planned e-fuel projects worldwide would only produce enough fuel to cover 10% of Germany's demand for e-fuel use in aviation, shipping and chemicals in the next few years.
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportat...
And not every EU member is on board so It's going to get messy
https://fleetworld.co.uk/dont-backtrack-on-2035-ic...
https://www.politico.eu/article/renault-ceo-luca-d...
NomduJour said:
There’s far more to it than energy efficiency at point of use, though - cars aren’t disposable lightbulbs, they’re resource/labour/capital-intensive products with long lifetimes.
As EVs become more prevalent, they will become more expensive to run; as petrol and diesel cars become less prevalent, they will become more expensive to run. There will be huge demands on natural resources whose processing and refining hasn’t had over a century to develop, huge costs for infrastructure installation, the planet’s biggest EV market is powered by coal and will be for decades etc.
KIA sources its EV6 batteries from China.As EVs become more prevalent, they will become more expensive to run; as petrol and diesel cars become less prevalent, they will become more expensive to run. There will be huge demands on natural resources whose processing and refining hasn’t had over a century to develop, huge costs for infrastructure installation, the planet’s biggest EV market is powered by coal and will be for decades etc.
They have audited the CO2 impact of the batteries made there for them and the data are contained in this document on page 39
https://worldwide.kia.com/int/company/sustainabili...
The batteries are responsible for 50% of the manufacturing footprint, which comes to 24g CO2 eq/km (the rest of the car of course has a slimier impact to a regular ICE vehicle in manufacturing terms.) So that's an additional 24g/km to account for the batteries (over 200,000 km)
Don't assume that China is still in the dark ages, they'r made and continue to make massive inroads in to becoming more sustainable. Battery manufacturing environmental impact is approaching that of market leaders Tesla.
The whole car produces 107g CO2 eq/km in use (Well to Wheel) with the world electricity mix, the UK is 40% lower as of 2022 figures which makes 64g CO2/ km.
So that's a total Well to Wheel contribution of 89g CO2 eq/ km. What petrol SUV can match that? (remembering that you need to add on at least 30% to published CO2 figures for ICE vehicles to make them comparably Well to Wheel).
A (smaller) Nissan Quashqai hybrid produces around 2 x that, an Audi Q5 (similar size) around 3 x that.
There's no comparison.
That's for a mid sized crossover/ SUV
It's easy to trot out tropes about China making cars out of raw coal or whatever but the reality is far from that if you just look for the data.
The configurator gives 71g/km lifetime footprint for a large EV driven in the UK in 2023 with a standard Chinese manufactured battery, which aligns fairly closely with Soupdragon's calcs.
Or 20 tons for the EV vs 78 tons for the equivalent petrol ICE.
I suppose everyone could be in on the con, but does it not seem plausible that there might just be some element of truth in what KIA claims?
Or 20 tons for the EV vs 78 tons for the equivalent petrol ICE.
I suppose everyone could be in on the con, but does it not seem plausible that there might just be some element of truth in what KIA claims?
havoc said:
swisstoni said:
And you’re taking all that at face value are you?
Indeed. It's quite amusing that efuels are a bunch of snake oil (no pun) because VAG are involved and they always lie, and yet CO2 figures coming out of China for EV components are unimpeachable...All oil and gas companies are white knights obviously.
I guess we also have to assume from your point that all manufacturers of cars, gearboxes and engines are squeaky clean and it's only the battery manufacturing boys who are taking the piss.
havoc said:
swisstoni said:
And you’re taking all that at face value are you?
Indeed. It's quite amusing that efuels are a bunch of snake oil (no pun) because VAG are involved and they always lie, and yet CO2 figures coming out of China for EV components are unimpeachable...https://www.carbontrust.com/
Soupdragon65 said:
The figures are independently audited by The Carbon Trust (London based ) who have no affiliation with the auto industry.
https://www.carbontrust.com/
Come on soup, they are on the take as well, surely.https://www.carbontrust.com/
But only when reporting battery footprints, never anything else.
Soupdragon65 said:
Don't assume that China is still in the dark ages, they'r made and continue to make massive inroads in to becoming more sustainable.
Yeah. New York Times said:
China also burns more coal than the rest of the world combined and has accelerated mining and the construction of coal-fired power plants, driving up the country’s emissions of energy-related greenhouse gases nearly 6 percent last year, the fastest pace in a decade. And China’s addiction to coal is likely to endure for years, even decades… Mainly because of its use of coal, China emits almost a third of all man-made greenhouse gases — more than the United States, Europe and Japan combined
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/03/business/energy...NMNeil said:
The EU are preparing a draft modification to allow e-fuels, but it may not be what Germany wants.
"The draft proposal, seen by Reuters on Tuesday, suggests creating a new type of vehicle category in the European Union for cars that can only run on carbon neutral fuels.
Such vehicles would have to use technology that would prevent them from driving if other fuels are used, the draft said.
Two sources familiar with the matter said the Commission's condition that cars must be able to recognise CO2-neutral fuels from fossil fuels was problematic for Germany because it would largely force automakers to develop new engines.
E-fuels are made by synthesizing captured CO2 emissions and hydrogen produced using CO2-free electricity.They are not yet produced at scale. A study published on Tuesday by the Potsdam Institute for Climate Research found that all planned e-fuel projects worldwide would only produce enough fuel to cover 10% of Germany's demand for e-fuel use in aviation, shipping and chemicals in the next few years.
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportat...
And not every EU member is on board so It's going to get messy
https://fleetworld.co.uk/dont-backtrack-on-2035-ic...
https://www.politico.eu/article/renault-ceo-luca-d...
I hear Germany wants to verify with Volkswagen on how to exploit potential loopholes before agreeing "The draft proposal, seen by Reuters on Tuesday, suggests creating a new type of vehicle category in the European Union for cars that can only run on carbon neutral fuels.
Such vehicles would have to use technology that would prevent them from driving if other fuels are used, the draft said.
Two sources familiar with the matter said the Commission's condition that cars must be able to recognise CO2-neutral fuels from fossil fuels was problematic for Germany because it would largely force automakers to develop new engines.
E-fuels are made by synthesizing captured CO2 emissions and hydrogen produced using CO2-free electricity.They are not yet produced at scale. A study published on Tuesday by the Potsdam Institute for Climate Research found that all planned e-fuel projects worldwide would only produce enough fuel to cover 10% of Germany's demand for e-fuel use in aviation, shipping and chemicals in the next few years.
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportat...
And not every EU member is on board so It's going to get messy
https://fleetworld.co.uk/dont-backtrack-on-2035-ic...
https://www.politico.eu/article/renault-ceo-luca-d...
NMNeil said:
The EU are preparing a draft modification to allow e-fuels, but it may not be what Germany wants.
"The draft proposal, seen by Reuters on Tuesday, suggests creating a new type of vehicle category in the European Union for cars that can only run on carbon neutral fuels.
Such vehicles would have to use technology that would prevent them from driving if other fuels are used, the draft said.
Two sources familiar with the matter said the Commission's condition that cars must be able to recognise CO2-neutral fuels from fossil fuels was problematic for Germany because it would largely force automakers to develop new engines.
E-fuels are made by synthesizing captured CO2 emissions and hydrogen produced using CO2-free electricity.They are not yet produced at scale. A study published on Tuesday by the Potsdam Institute for Climate Research found that all planned e-fuel projects worldwide would only produce enough fuel to cover 10% of Germany's demand for e-fuel use in aviation, shipping and chemicals in the next few years.
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportat...
And not every EU member is on board so It's going to get messy
https://fleetworld.co.uk/dont-backtrack-on-2035-ic...
https://www.politico.eu/article/renault-ceo-luca-d...
The Germans will always put themselves first. The Eastern block supply chain countries for the German heavy industry will do what they are told, or will die as an economy."The draft proposal, seen by Reuters on Tuesday, suggests creating a new type of vehicle category in the European Union for cars that can only run on carbon neutral fuels.
Such vehicles would have to use technology that would prevent them from driving if other fuels are used, the draft said.
Two sources familiar with the matter said the Commission's condition that cars must be able to recognise CO2-neutral fuels from fossil fuels was problematic for Germany because it would largely force automakers to develop new engines.
E-fuels are made by synthesizing captured CO2 emissions and hydrogen produced using CO2-free electricity.They are not yet produced at scale. A study published on Tuesday by the Potsdam Institute for Climate Research found that all planned e-fuel projects worldwide would only produce enough fuel to cover 10% of Germany's demand for e-fuel use in aviation, shipping and chemicals in the next few years.
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportat...
And not every EU member is on board so It's going to get messy
https://fleetworld.co.uk/dont-backtrack-on-2035-ic...
https://www.politico.eu/article/renault-ceo-luca-d...
If you want to reduce CO2, dont buy any German produced goods, they are made by using the dirtiest and highest CO2 fuel source on the planet, lignite.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertbryce/2022/10/2...
Unless the EU are now using majority votes on this issue rather than the veto system used when UK was a member, it doesn't matter what other countries think anyway.
GT9 said:
Soupdragon65 said:
The figures are independently audited by The Carbon Trust (London based ) who have no affiliation with the auto industry.
https://www.carbontrust.com/
Come on soup, they are on the take as well, surely.https://www.carbontrust.com/
But only when reporting battery footprints, never anything else.
Move along, nothing to see here…..
V88Dicky said:
Move along, nothing to see here…..
I have to take my hat off to the power that be for building the world's biggest squirrel.One that 70 tons of fossil fuel carbon footprint can hide behind so everyone focusses on whether an EV battery produces 7 tons or 8 tons.
Brilliant work.
Remember kids, BATTERIES ARE EVIL, keep burning stuff!
GT9 said:
I have to take my hat off to the power that be for building the world's biggest squirrel.
One that 70 tons of fossil fuel carbon footprint can hide behind so everyone focusses on whether an EV battery produces 7 tons or 8 tons.
Brilliant work.
Remember kids, BATTERIES ARE EVIL, keep burning stuff!
You won't be getting any batteries without burning stuff, lots of it as dirty as it comes.One that 70 tons of fossil fuel carbon footprint can hide behind so everyone focusses on whether an EV battery produces 7 tons or 8 tons.
Brilliant work.
Remember kids, BATTERIES ARE EVIL, keep burning stuff!
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