RE: Final EU vote on 2035 engine phaseout delayed

[pheonix478]

500TORQUES said:

You won't be getting any batteries without burning stuff, lots of it as dirty as it comes.

Yes lets just ignore the numbers because ICE powertrains grow on trees. Er...

[plfrench]

Talking of burning coal, we're currently 6 days in without burning any coal to produce electricity in the UK. For this time of year, that's not bad going. I reckon they might try to go for a solid 6 months without coal for electricity this year in advance of the planned end of coal for generation next October.

All going in the right direction for weaning ourselves off fossil fuels for increased wealth opportunity for UK Plc. Regardless of emissions, the economic potential are a real game changer - having a population stuck on expensive fossil fuels / efuels is not a sensible option when you can provide far cheaper energy. A real competitive advantage on the global stage longer term.

[havoc]

GT9 said:

How reliable are the CO2 figures for the fossil fuel production supply chain, upstream of the pumps?
All oil and gas companies are white knights obviously.
I guess we also have to assume from your point that all manufacturers of cars, gearboxes and engines are squeaky clean and it's only the battery manufacturing boys who are taking the piss.

Not at all. I'm a card-carrying cynic. I just enjoy pointing out flaws in the arguments of true believers...on any side of the debate.

[GT9]

havoc said:

Not at all. I'm a card-carrying cynic. I just enjoy pointing out flaws in the arguments of true believers...on any side of the debate.

Be careful of splinters!

[NomduJour]

plfrench said:

All going in the right direction for weaning ourselves off fossil fuels for increased wealth opportunity for UK Plc. Regardless of emissions, the economic potential are a real game changer - having a population stuck on expensive fossil fuels / efuels is not a sensible option when you can provide far cheaper energy. A real competitive advantage on the global stage longer term.

… and yet we are, right now, importing about 20% of our electricity. Seems insane to rely so heavily on wind and sun (and “renewables” like the 20k tonnes of wood being shipped into Immingham for Drax every single day), but not to have invested in nuclear.

[Pepperpots]

NomduJour said:

plfrench said:

All going in the right direction for weaning ourselves off fossil fuels for increased wealth opportunity for UK Plc. Regardless of emissions, the economic potential are a real game changer - having a population stuck on expensive fossil fuels / efuels is not a sensible option when you can provide far cheaper energy. A real competitive advantage on the global stage longer term.

… and yet we are, right now, importing about 20% of our electricity. Seems insane to rely so heavily on wind and sun (and “renewables” like the 20k tonnes of wood being shipped into Immingham for Drax every single day), but not to have invested in nuclear.

And remember boys and girls, petrol and diesel are only expensive because of the heavy taxes applied. Get rid of ice and the taxes will be applied to those battery powered cars.
Turkeys voting for Christmas?

[GT9]

Pepperpots said:

And remember boys and girls, petrol and diesel are only expensive because of the heavy taxes applied. Get rid of ice and the taxes will be applied to those battery powered cars.
Turkeys voting for Christmas?

I've not yet got 'EVs are bad because the don't stop taxation' on my bingo card.
Will add it tomorrow.

[Undercover McNoName]

GT9 said:

How reliable are the CO2 figures for the fossil fuel production supply chain, upstream of the pumps?
All oil and gas companies are white knights obviously.
I guess we also have to assume from your point that all manufacturers of cars, gearboxes and engines are squeaky clean and it's only the battery manufacturing boys who are taking the piss.

I remember a number about 600 g CO2 pr. litre just for the production of fuel, before its burned. And most cars emits more CO2 than on paper, as emissions is directly links to fuel consumption.

[DonkeyApple]

havoc said:

Indeed. It's quite amusing that efuels are a bunch of snake oil (no pun) because VAG are involved and they always lie, and yet CO2 figures coming out of China for EV components are unimpeachable...

EFuels aren't a bunch of snake oil because VW is involved. They're a bunch of snake oil because the science being touted by the PR agents to spin the tax credit story is so easily and instantly debunked. Anyone who did GCSE level chemistry and physics can see the issue with the tall tales. The involvement of the likes of VW and the British blokes pedalling the lines is simply cause to double check in the first instance.

As for China's data, they can't tell the truth either. Racist regimes that systematically murder and exploit their their own people are rarely particularly good with data sets but isn't their CO2 data collated and compiled by external parties?

Besides which, isn't the argument as to whether a new EV is better than a new ICE always conflated by the assumption that the user of the old vehicle is the same type of consumer of new vehicles? Along with the debate usually omitting the mileage being done by users?

The insane shopping habits of U.K. car consumers and the need for new currently has a benefit in that it ensures the fleet as a whole produces less and less pollution but once most cars are EVs there ought to be tweaking of consumer finance regulation to end the mad shopathon and help consumers revert to looking after the products while saving for the next. We import almost all of our cars so in addition this would hugely benefit the U.K. balance of payments while reducing currency exposure and expanding local labour demand as cars would need to be maintained better and for longer.

But if someone if someone is covering the annual distance or greater in their current vehicle then it makes perfect logic to incentivise those users to switch to EV as soon as is convenient for them and to free up their old ICE for someone who does below average mileage.

However as soon as people bring synthetic fuels into the debate as some solution to poorer workers not being able to afford electricity or EVs then the debate loses all credibility as these synthetic fuels have absolutely nothing to do with poor people. There's no profit from trying to sell expensive fuel to skint punters. But those skint punters do have a huge value if you can rally them to back your business plan to sell hugely expensive fuel to hugely affluent individuals.

That's what is so depressingly hilarious about the whole synthetic fuel spin. Everyone can easily see and work out that it's for the wealthy only yet it seems to be the poorer people who have been so easily whipped up to back the product.

Being played like a Stradivarius by people and businesses that excel at such activity.

I'll stick to petrol. The real McCoy and the stuff my expensive engines like and won't be destroyed by and where I can buy as much as I want wherever I want and will be able to do so for another 30 years+. EFuels, even the name is 20th century and lame.

[braddo]

Hopefully havoc isnt too busy trying to score internet cynic points and will read DA’s post. He might learn something and realise he needs to go back and re-read why efuels are a non- starter due to their inefficiency versus batteries.

[DonkeyApple]

braddo said:

Hopefully havoc isnt too busy trying to score internet cynic points and will read DA’s post. He might learn something and realise he needs to go back and re-read why efuels are a non- starter due to their inefficiency versus batteries.

And their value in other industries that can't use battery tech as of yet.

But with volume potential directly capped by the known max generation of the key renewable sites that can be used you can even see why the aviation industry hasn't rushed to endorse the likes of Paddy Lowe and why Siemens and Enel had to turn to VW and the motorsport idea when H2 shipping hit the buffers.

Ultimately, I suspect we will see Germany exporting non Germanic EU grey hydrogen industries to Chile and the energy importing aspect continue to fade away as it's just a non starter. Who knew how useful exporting all those citizens to South America back in the 1940s would suddenly become in the 2020s

[Strangely Brown]

How long until the party starts to fizzle...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwxfxR1UD9k

"...a very real issue facing today's motorists - the increasingly large divide between those who can afford an EV (or Electric car) and those who cannot. With deadlines now in place restricting the usage of many fossil fuel vehicles, and bans coming on the sale of new ICE products - are EVs a realistic and practical solution for all?"

[Strangely Brown]

... if you're interested in knowing why all of the Net-Zero crap is just pissing in the wind...

https://youtu.be/HiV48tehk4Q?t=597

[Soupdragon65]

Strangely Brown said:

... if you're interested in knowing why all of the Net-Zero crap is just pissing in the wind...

https://youtu.be/HiV48tehk4Q?t=597

So your argument is that because we are (numerically) small we shouldn't have to make an effort? I might suggest that I can stop paying taxes on that basis.

That debate is a depressingly smug, cynical appeal to believe in fairies and it will all be all right in the end, but in the meantime just carry on. Third rate stuff, I was hoping for better.

Yes poor countries will want to become richer, but they will only do so in a sustainable way if they feel that everyone is doing their bit.

No one is saying don't innovate, create and develop better technologies, quite the opposite, but at the same time the best we can do is the best we can (individually) do.

Whether that is by reducing your electricity usage, turning off your devices instead of leaving them blinking at you, eating less meat and taking fewer airline flights or even (gasp - the ultimate woke act) buying an EV, every bit helps, both in terms of CO2 but importantly in making the reaction to climate change a global effort. Arguing that we don't matter because it's all about Asia is the ultimate betrayal of this concept that global warming is, well, global.

The alternatives are much worse.

[DonkeyApple]

Strangely Brown said:

How long until the party starts to fizzle...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwxfxR1UD9k

"...a very real issue facing today's motorists - the increasingly large divide between those who can afford an EV (or Electric car) and those who cannot. With deadlines now in place restricting the usage of many fossil fuel vehicles, and bans coming on the sale of new ICE products - are EVs a realistic and practical solution for all?"

This is where, in the U.K., the national policy is at odds with more militant local policies.

The former is merely offering those who can afford to purchase and who can make use of an EV to consider switching at any point onwards and even beyond 2035 those who cannot will not be forced as they are allowed to keep using their ICE.

The issue for the less affluent is at a local level where authorities are directly targeting them. Not just to switch to EV but to surrender their car altogether.

This isn't just some local governments but also some employers who see a gain from their employees switching to EV but aren't acting equitably in their deliberate exclusion of their lower paid employees.

The latter issue is generally easy to redress as the equality and employment laws favour those who can show a clear discrimination against them. The provincial government issue is far more difficult as those being targeted will generally lack the electoral weight to replace that governance. Nor is there any clear upside to a Conservative Govt stepping in to stop what is mainly Labour on Labour discrimination.

It is important to appreciate that it isn't the centralised national policies that are placing any financial pressure on motorists but their provincial governments.

[Pepperpots]

GT9 said:

Pepperpots said:

And remember boys and girls, petrol and diesel are only expensive because of the heavy taxes applied. Get rid of ice and the taxes will be applied to those battery powered cars.
Turkeys voting for Christmas?

I've not yet got 'EVs are bad because the don't stop taxation' on my bingo card.
Will add it tomorrow.

My point stands though, how much of the cost of petrol and diesel is tax? Only most of it.
EV drivers have to wake up and when the costs/taxes start to hit hard the cost of 'driving' an EV will hit home. We've seen some of this from public chargers that whack up the cost against home charging. What will they tax heavy EVs on? Weight possibly but with all the talk about planting trackers in them it could be per mile

[Soupdragon65]

Pepperpots said:

GT9 said:

Pepperpots said:

And remember boys and girls, petrol and diesel are only expensive because of the heavy taxes applied. Get rid of ice and the taxes will be applied to those battery powered cars.
Turkeys voting for Christmas?

I've not yet got 'EVs are bad because the don't stop taxation' on my bingo card.
Will add it tomorrow.

My point stands though, how much of the cost of petrol and diesel is tax? Only most of it.
EV drivers have to wake up and when the costs/taxes start to hit hard the cost of 'driving' an EV will hit home. We've seen some of this from public chargers that whack up the cost against home charging. What will they tax heavy EVs on? Weight possibly but with all the talk about planting trackers in them it could be per mile

And you somehow think that ICE vehicles will be given a free ride? Why is this an argument against EV's?

[Strangely Brown]

Soupdragon65 said:

And you somehow think that ICE vehicles will be given a free ride?

They won't. They will likely get to pay VED and charged per mile.

[Pepperpots]

Soupdragon65 said:

Pepperpots said:

GT9 said:

Pepperpots said:

And remember boys and girls, petrol and diesel are only expensive because of the heavy taxes applied. Get rid of ice and the taxes will be applied to those battery powered cars.
Turkeys voting for Christmas?

I've not yet got 'EVs are bad because the don't stop taxation' on my bingo card.
Will add it tomorrow.

My point stands though, how much of the cost of petrol and diesel is tax? Only most of it.
EV drivers have to wake up and when the costs/taxes start to hit hard the cost of 'driving' an EV will hit home. We've seen some of this from public chargers that whack up the cost against home charging. What will they tax heavy EVs on? Weight possibly but with all the talk about planting trackers in them it could be per mile

And you somehow think that ICE vehicles will be given a free ride? Why is this an argument against EV's?

ICE cars aren't given a free ride already, hence all the inflated fuel taxes.
It's for balance anyway.

[axel1990chp]

Pardon my ignorance in not sieving through the 50+ pages, I've only just come across this thread after a debate with colleagues re: EV's and the 'banning' of ICE in the future.

What are the plans for charging for households without driveway/garage access? Such as Terrace homes with multiple family cars (Difficulty parking outside your own home with just one car) or Apartments/Flats/Studios? Granted some apartments etc have private parking, others have permit granted street parking - if you can find it.

Personally I am not dead set against EV, but id much prefer a better hybrid system with smaller engines than flat out pure EV.

And to again pardon my ignorance, what's the maintenance cost/battery life when it eventually gives up the goose?