RE: Can't get no love from me | PH Footnote
Discussion
forzaminardi said:
Younger people are increasingly less desirous of being physically present or together in an experience. The decline of places where young people tend(ed) to congregate - libraries, community centres, pubs, nightclubs, etc - is evidence of this. If you're orientated toward such a lifestyle, it's perfectly possible to live a satisfying and full life without leaving your house. If you want a car, and to drive it, there's probably more readily accessible enjoyment to be had by 'driving' it on a computer screen anyway.
I totally agree with this. My parents were fed up with me and my mates around the house being noisy long before I could drive, so the prospect of getting a car and meeting up in a car park where we could be as loud and daft as we wanted was manor to everyone. In contrast, my 16 year old sits in her room online with her friends rather than meeting in person and they order everything (McDonalds included!) online rather than going shopping. Unless you're a teenager living in the middle of nowhere with no transport links, cars are becoming a pointless waste of money.AC43 said:
I grew up in a boring provincial Scottish town...
My son's now 18 and living in London
That's not a fair comparison though is it. I dare say growing up in a boring provincial town, in Scotland or elsewhere, is conducive to wanting a car or other means of transport ASAP. My son's now 18 and living in London
Likewise for those who grew up in London even 30 years ago, I doubt a car was of such great interest - the tube has been there since before cars were a thing.
AC43 said:
I grew up in a boring provincial Scottish town and, at 17, I was desperate to get my licence and then my first car. It gave me a sense of freedom and independence, something to do (me and my mates would sometimes just hoon around the local B roads) and a way of travelling all over Scotland, then England then France. The roads were empty. Cars, petrol and insurance were cheap. And speeding enforcement was almost non-existent.
My son's now 18 and living in London. He's got tubes, buses, trains, Lime Bikes and Ubers on his doorstep. He can zig zag all over the city with ease. Flights are cheap and he can easily jump on one from Heathrow, Stantead, Luton or Gatwick. He can connect virtually with any of his mates any time he wants of hook up with them almost anywhere in London in under an hour. Driving just isn't a priority for him or his generation in the same way it was for me.
To be fair, owning a car in London has been prohibitively expensive for quite some time. An old school friend of mine who lives in London, although he’s on a very healthy salary (£100k-£150k), owning a car doesn’t make financial sense to him, parking costs a fortune and he can get around faster on the tube, so for him it’s just cheaper to hire a car whenever he needs to drive outside of London.My son's now 18 and living in London. He's got tubes, buses, trains, Lime Bikes and Ubers on his doorstep. He can zig zag all over the city with ease. Flights are cheap and he can easily jump on one from Heathrow, Stantead, Luton or Gatwick. He can connect virtually with any of his mates any time he wants of hook up with them almost anywhere in London in under an hour. Driving just isn't a priority for him or his generation in the same way it was for me.
MrGTI6 said:
I've felt this way for a while now with regards to most new cars, specifically electric cars. I just put it down to getting older, though I'm only 27. I used to recognise any car from the smallest of details, and now I see things on the road and I've not got a clue what they are as they all look the bloody same!
I'm guessing manufacturers are largely restricted by regulations, platform-sharing and not particularly diverse consumer demand.
Take that car in the photos in this article for instance. I understand that SEAT's Cupra division is now a standalone brand, and you'd expect them to be producing some really exciting stuff. Sports cars, hot hatches, etc. And yet the car in the photos is a mini-MPV that looks like something you'd get on the Motability scheme.
Why would young people be interested in new cars when manufacturers are reduced to churning out such dross?
I've also felt this way with new cars for some time now. I've not been fortunate (ie. successful) enough to own anything remotely exotic/supercar flavoured but I like to think I've had a couple of interesting cars over the years. Every time I see an arcticle headline for something only to discover it's another EV my interest (like the emissions) drops to zero. Even most modern supercars have become a bit 'meh' - they all look the same, sound choked thanks to noise and emissions regs and don't really have a defined character now you can change suspension, throttle response, steering and 'piped-in' fake sound through the speakers.I'm guessing manufacturers are largely restricted by regulations, platform-sharing and not particularly diverse consumer demand.
Take that car in the photos in this article for instance. I understand that SEAT's Cupra division is now a standalone brand, and you'd expect them to be producing some really exciting stuff. Sports cars, hot hatches, etc. And yet the car in the photos is a mini-MPV that looks like something you'd get on the Motability scheme.
Why would young people be interested in new cars when manufacturers are reduced to churning out such dross?
I'm sure most EVs are perfectly fine ways of getting from A to B in quiet, efficient silence but they do nothing at all for me; they don't stir the soul even a fraction. It's no wonder young people don't give a s
t if even dyed-in-the-wool car enthusiasts are feeling the passion for things automotive waning.Add in ever-decreasing speed limits, cameras everywhere, safe overtaking locations ruined, potholes everywhere and I suppose I should be grateful to have lived through a golden era of motoring that's now come to a close.
Edited by Funk on Monday 20th March 17:20
Talksteer said:
An unsubtle attempt to connect two unrelated things.
Cars are not more expensive today than they were back in 1997. Incomes have increased by 210% since 1997, so a £25k car is now equivalent to £12k one.
Only it isn't because interest rates are much lower now so from an affordability perspective a £25k is probably equivalent to a sub £10k car in 1997.
Furthermore today's used cars are vastly different to those available at peak youth driving in the 90's. Cars back then basically started falling apart once they hit about 10 years. Whereas who would be particularly scared about owning a properly serviced 2010 car.
The things which have changed.
From a car culture perspective, most modern small cars come straight out of the factory with alloy wheels of a width a 90's GT car would wear, they come with spoilers, faux diffusers, "sports seats" straight from the factory too.
None of the above had anything to do with electric cars, other than Tesla is pretty popular with going people.
Lots of good points here.Cars are not more expensive today than they were back in 1997. Incomes have increased by 210% since 1997, so a £25k car is now equivalent to £12k one.
Only it isn't because interest rates are much lower now so from an affordability perspective a £25k is probably equivalent to a sub £10k car in 1997.
Furthermore today's used cars are vastly different to those available at peak youth driving in the 90's. Cars back then basically started falling apart once they hit about 10 years. Whereas who would be particularly scared about owning a properly serviced 2010 car.
The things which have changed.
- The driving test has become harder, you need more lessons and they have got more expensive
- Far more teenagers lack income and employment
- The NHS started billing insurance companies for treatment and the insurance companies started loading this on premiums
- Car repairs became a complete racket, and cars became more expensive to repair in accidents, see body coloureds bumpers, see above for impact
- Volumes of traffic have vastly increased and as a consequence free parking has reduced. Teenagers are more sensitive to the marginal cost of using a car, particularly if it isn't theirs anyway
- Much more young people going to uni, which now costs a lot more money.
- Universities basically are car free 15 minute cities, they are also frequently the happiest years of many people lives, something to ruminate on.....
- Property prices also mean that young people trying to get on the property ladder have much less disposable cash.
From a car culture perspective, most modern small cars come straight out of the factory with alloy wheels of a width a 90's GT car would wear, they come with spoilers, faux diffusers, "sports seats" straight from the factory too.
None of the above had anything to do with electric cars, other than Tesla is pretty popular with going people.
It is self evident that cars are no more expensive now (and arguably cheaper relative to our income) than in the past given the rise in congestion on the roads and the increase in cars registered per household in the UK over time (48% of UK housholds had no car in 1971 vs 22% in 2021. In 1985 to 1987, there were 8 cars for every 10 households in Great Britain; in 2021 there were 12 cars for every 10 households in England.). See the chart below from National Statistics.
Regarding the driving test, not only has it got harder and more expensive, but since COVID it has become extraordinarily difficult just to book one. Experience with my two elder kids shows that unless you are happy to pay a scalper, there is a six month waiting list around London. This must delay the number of those who manage to pass the test while still teenagers, one of the data points cited by The Economist.
Although circumstances have changed since I passed my test in 1987 and it is no longer such an important rite of passage to them, my two definitely want to get their licence and cite the feeling of freedom and independence (endowed by a 2015 1.0 litre Hyundai i10) as a prime motivator. Interestingly, the elder one (who has passed) said that a significant number of jobs promoted by employers of graduates require the applicant to have a driving licence, yet it was never mentioned a useful skill by her university's careers service.
With any EV not exactly being candidate for Shed of the Week, they're not affordable full stop, let alone for youngsters struggling with the cost of living.
Nonetheless, electric vehicles play a significant part in how governments would like us to live our lives.
If the ICE car had only just been invented, there is no way any present day government would permit the general public to operate one.
Both for reasons of ideology (a distrust of allowing individuals the empowerment it allows) and - increasingly relevant in the modern era - physical movement of people is less relevant to economic progress than it once was.
From those perspectives EVs are a natural stepping stone towards the removal of individual control of a vehicle, and also allow officialdom the easy ability to ration their use by limiting opportunities for charging.
Sadly this direction of travel is not resisted by a significant number of young people, rather it is embraced as they become convinced to accept a lesser quality of life.
So it is not surprising that many youngsters do not see cars as aspirational devices. Many mass produced EVs even resemble appliances - what else does a white Tesla look like?
Eventually self driving EVs will become the norm, and even their use will likely be restricted. Indeed there's not much to love in that - sadly inevitable - outcome.
Nonetheless, electric vehicles play a significant part in how governments would like us to live our lives.
If the ICE car had only just been invented, there is no way any present day government would permit the general public to operate one.
Both for reasons of ideology (a distrust of allowing individuals the empowerment it allows) and - increasingly relevant in the modern era - physical movement of people is less relevant to economic progress than it once was.
From those perspectives EVs are a natural stepping stone towards the removal of individual control of a vehicle, and also allow officialdom the easy ability to ration their use by limiting opportunities for charging.
Sadly this direction of travel is not resisted by a significant number of young people, rather it is embraced as they become convinced to accept a lesser quality of life.
So it is not surprising that many youngsters do not see cars as aspirational devices. Many mass produced EVs even resemble appliances - what else does a white Tesla look like?
Eventually self driving EVs will become the norm, and even their use will likely be restricted. Indeed there's not much to love in that - sadly inevitable - outcome.
Edited by JD2329 on Monday 20th March 14:33
Edited by JD2329 on Monday 20th March 14:35
MitchT said:
What is there for today's young to stimulate an emotional connection with motor vehicles?
I would say old runs of Top Gear on Dave but I fear their slightly 'un-woke' views and opinions might jar with today's snowflakes. Plus, a show being presented by three middle-class, middle-aged white men might as well be a show presented by Hitler, Stalin and Mussolini as far as they are concerned. Good article and also enjoyed reading a lot of very well thought through comments (mine not included).
forzaminardi said:
Younger people are increasingly less desirous of being physically present or together in an experience. The decline of places where young people tend(ed) to congregate - libraries, community centres, pubs, nightclubs, etc - is evidence of this. If you're orientated toward such a lifestyle, it's perfectly possible to live a satisfying and full life without leaving your house. If you want a car, and to drive it, there's probably more readily accessible enjoyment to be had by 'driving' it on a computer screen anyway.
I'm sorry, but how sad is that? The older we get the more staying in on a Friday / Saturday night becomes more enjoyable than going out to pubs & clubs.But from 17-30 I could never imagine choosing a lifestyle where I never left the house and just talked to friends via technology. Part of being young is getting out and about, meeting up with friends. Meeting new people. Getting into daft things. What are you going to do with everyone sat in their own bedrooms?
And we wonder why people are getting fatter.
cerb4.5lee said:
A lot of people on here say that you can enjoy both an ICE and an EV, however I don't agree with that though, and for me you either like one or the other.
I’ve got to pick you up on this. You post a variation of this on a regular basis and, respectfully as we have both been on here a long time, you don’t have the EV experience to make such a sweeping statement. Look at my car history - a couple of lotuses, a Maserati, other stuff. I love cars. But I’m also a big fan of my Tesla. Being able to overtake in a NSL when there is the smallest of gaps, you just push your foot down and …pow..!
But when I did a 2,500 trip to Italy in the summer then I took my old, creaking Boxster.
You can absolutely enjoy both - EVs make the daily mundane stuff a bit more fun for me.
samoht said:
I don't think these two things are that closely tied together. Today there are still plenty of used cheap petrol cars, the loss of the Fiesta etc has yet to play out in the market where 18 year olds buy 18 year old cars.
Also, if the need was as marked as people make out, then everyone can still buy a Mazda 2, a nice and affordable traditional Fiesta-like small hatchback.
In cities, it's still the case that car ownership is the outward marker of embarking on a new phase of life, it's just that where before it marked graduation to adulthood, nowadays a set of car keys is the marker of new parents, clutching their oversized safety car-seat in one arm and their beloved infant in the other. No longer the end of childhood, but the start of parenthood. Because fundamentally while a fit young person can perfectly well get around the average european metropolis with a bike and a bus pass, once you start bringing small children along it's completely unsatisfactory.
So no, there's no generational shift away from driving per se. What there is is a shift in the phase of life where car ownership starts to tip the balance to make sense. And this only really in urban areas; in the countryside with bus services being 'streamlined' ie cut to the bare bones, the old cold logic of stay home or drive still holds.
So yes things are changing, but if anything the reduction in small cars is a response to changes in society not a cause, and the change is much less ominous than one might fear.
While the article doesnt cover every reason the generational shift is definitely tangible.Also, if the need was as marked as people make out, then everyone can still buy a Mazda 2, a nice and affordable traditional Fiesta-like small hatchback.
In cities, it's still the case that car ownership is the outward marker of embarking on a new phase of life, it's just that where before it marked graduation to adulthood, nowadays a set of car keys is the marker of new parents, clutching their oversized safety car-seat in one arm and their beloved infant in the other. No longer the end of childhood, but the start of parenthood. Because fundamentally while a fit young person can perfectly well get around the average european metropolis with a bike and a bus pass, once you start bringing small children along it's completely unsatisfactory.
So no, there's no generational shift away from driving per se. What there is is a shift in the phase of life where car ownership starts to tip the balance to make sense. And this only really in urban areas; in the countryside with bus services being 'streamlined' ie cut to the bare bones, the old cold logic of stay home or drive still holds.
So yes things are changing, but if anything the reduction in small cars is a response to changes in society not a cause, and the change is much less ominous than one might fear.
As a car enthusiast in my 40s I used to be in the car scene back in the day with XR3i's, GTIs, Turbos and the like. Even back then the shift towards consumerism and taking cars on credit was starting to take hold with many of the younger ones opting for a brand new 1.2 Corsas (or 12v as the joke went) over say a second hand Nova GSI or SR. Then with the advent of the Internet with its online gaming and gems such as TikTok the sub culture is most noticeably different with the yung uns opting to 'socialise' from home.
From being obsessed with cars in my youth I now find I have almost lost interest. This is due to a combination of things from car design moving towards the excitement of white goods (check out the XM this week), electrification the same and actually the performance envelope having moved too far - you used to have something different and quicker than the typical bog standard car that you could enjoy the noise, feel etc when in the mood (and safe to do so) to now every fridge around you having performance and the ones with even better performance inaccessible on the roads given safety, how busy all roads now are and speed and dash cameras around every corner.
MitchT said:
I'm 48. I was raised on a diet of TV shows where, if the motor vehicle wasn't the main feature, there'd at least be one of distinct character used by the star(s) of the show. Off the top of my head...
The Dukes of Hazzard
C.H.I.P.S.
Knight Rider
The A Team
The Fall Guy
Streethawk
Starsky & Hutch
What is there for today's young to stimulate an emotional connection with motor vehicles?
YouTube.The Dukes of Hazzard
C.H.I.P.S.
Knight Rider
The A Team
The Fall Guy
Streethawk
Starsky & Hutch
What is there for today's young to stimulate an emotional connection with motor vehicles?
My 3 year old is car obsessed. Knows more about makes and models than most adults (I'll take some credit on this), but is genuinely passionate about cars. Granted he does prefer an electric porsche over a petrol but hoping once I can afford one he'll change his mind.
I'm sure there's a gap between my generation, the generation behind me, and my sons. It'll all change again no doubt.
limpsfield said:
I’ve got to pick you up on this. You post a variation of this on a regular basis and, respectfully as we have both been on here a long time, you don’t have the EV experience to make such a sweeping statement.
Look at my car history - a couple of lotuses, a Maserati, other stuff. I love cars. But I’m also a big fan of my Tesla. Being able to overtake in a NSL when there is the smallest of gaps, you just push your foot down and …pow..!
But when I did a 2,500 trip to Italy in the summer then I took my old, creaking Boxster.
You can absolutely enjoy both - EVs make the daily mundane stuff a bit more fun for me.
He also regularly comments that he drives a large diesel SUV, which for many including me, would be seen to be the absolute antithesis of a car enthusiast's choice. Of course he probably owns something interesting. Look at my car history - a couple of lotuses, a Maserati, other stuff. I love cars. But I’m also a big fan of my Tesla. Being able to overtake in a NSL when there is the smallest of gaps, you just push your foot down and …pow..!
But when I did a 2,500 trip to Italy in the summer then I took my old, creaking Boxster.
You can absolutely enjoy both - EVs make the daily mundane stuff a bit more fun for me.
So on one hand he drives a hulking great wealth signalling SUV as a daily, whilst simultaneously owning and appreciating a petrol sports car...
Funny that.
A good read, but a fair bit of it comes across as "Young people today aren't into what I was into as a lad (hot hatches), and that's why society is doomed".
I'm sure on whatever bulletin board passed for PH in 1990 there were posts from people complaining young people were "ruining car culture with hot hatch this and that, rather than building hillclimb specials out of Austin A30s, like we did in the early 60s, when car culture was proper".
It's certainly true young folks spend a lot of time online. It's certainly true young folks are getting screwed economically. Whether they lose passion for cars, or whether it is just evolving, we will have to see.
I'm sure on whatever bulletin board passed for PH in 1990 there were posts from people complaining young people were "ruining car culture with hot hatch this and that, rather than building hillclimb specials out of Austin A30s, like we did in the early 60s, when car culture was proper".
It's certainly true young folks spend a lot of time online. It's certainly true young folks are getting screwed economically. Whether they lose passion for cars, or whether it is just evolving, we will have to see.
LBW2020 said:
Young people dont have the money. They are the worst paid, have to save the most to buy a house, end up in the most debt from university, and are now faced with some of the worst driving vehicles in the history of motoring, the plethora of st SUV's they have been driven around in by their parents, and now after all that they will get charged for every city they drive in and have to buy a ludicrously expensive 3 tonne st box if they can stump up the funds, all this plus insurance costs which are a grand for a 1 lite 20 year old fiesta ! A tesla is the most expensive insurance group....imagine being 17 and asking for a quote, url that will be 10k sir.....
I wouldn't drive under that influence either
The government wants 20 something in debt, and manageable so they can be good slave units to the workforce of the rich ! They want them sat at home jerking off and working on teams 20 hours a day....
Stick that in your hashtag !
Preach brother! XDt SUV's they have been driven around in by their parents, and now after all that they will get charged for every city they drive in and have to buy a ludicrously expensive 3 tonne st box if they can stump up the funds, all this plus insurance costs which are a grand for a 1 lite 20 year old fiesta ! A tesla is the most expensive insurance group....imagine being 17 and asking for a quote, url that will be 10k sir.....I wouldn't drive under that influence either
The government wants 20 something in debt, and manageable so they can be good slave units to the workforce of the rich ! They want them sat at home jerking off and working on teams 20 hours a day....
Stick that in your hashtag !
Amen!
limpsfield said:
cerb4.5lee said:
A lot of people on here say that you can enjoy both an ICE and an EV, however I don't agree with that though, and for me you either like one or the other.
I’ve got to pick you up on this. You post a variation of this on a regular basis and, respectfully as we have both been on here a long time, you don’t have the EV experience to make such a sweeping statement. Look at my car history - a couple of lotuses, a Maserati, other stuff. I love cars. But I’m also a big fan of my Tesla. Being able to overtake in a NSL when there is the smallest of gaps, you just push your foot down and …pow..!
But when I did a 2,500 trip to Italy in the summer then I took my old, creaking Boxster.
You can absolutely enjoy both - EVs make the daily mundane stuff a bit more fun for me.
I do wrestle a lot with my feelings towards EVs, plus I have a bad habit of being narrow minded at times as well.
Sticking my positive hat on, I can see why many would like the quietness/smoothness/performance with a Tesla for sure. Also as you say I haven't actually lived with an EV, and also in fairness all the EV and hybrids that I've tried have all been pretty crap being honest(EQA250(EV)/Smart four two(EV)/X5 45e(hybrid)/A250e(hybrid).
I definitely need to try a high performance EV at some stage as well I reckon.
I passed my test in '89 and at that time the world was more physically social. We went out often, local pubs/bars, round people's houses, out for a drive with mates, country pubs.
Having a car gave you that freedom and driving was far easier. Living in south London we could easily drive into the West End, find a free parking space, enjoy ourselves and then come home at 2am.
The social aspect has changed, youths do different things today. Driving has become a pain, it's expensive and it's simply not the same experience.
There are 3 mid twenties colleagues at work, none of them drive. They have no interest and can easily access most parts of the city within 20 minutes and be no more than 10 minutes away from decent public transport.
Having a car gave you that freedom and driving was far easier. Living in south London we could easily drive into the West End, find a free parking space, enjoy ourselves and then come home at 2am.
The social aspect has changed, youths do different things today. Driving has become a pain, it's expensive and it's simply not the same experience.
There are 3 mid twenties colleagues at work, none of them drive. They have no interest and can easily access most parts of the city within 20 minutes and be no more than 10 minutes away from decent public transport.
If we sidestep for a moment the questionable environmental benefit of electric cars in manufacturing terms
Very odd argument given that car manufacturers are pumping out, completely pointless SUV's in record numbers for the muppetry to satisfy their wafeur thin egos and need for status. Ever more marginal functionality, ever more performance, size, materials and kudos. Those are the real waste of manufacturing capacity, no mater how their owners argue to the contrary.
Very odd argument given that car manufacturers are pumping out, completely pointless SUV's in record numbers for the muppetry to satisfy their wafeur thin egos and need for status. Ever more marginal functionality, ever more performance, size, materials and kudos. Those are the real waste of manufacturing capacity, no mater how their owners argue to the contrary.
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