RE: EU floats draft proposal in synthetic fuel tussle
Discussion
DonkeyApple said:
I think there will be many an article. Some will contain the rictus grin of Dave Richards while the rest will be Barry's compo face next his Meriva as he is forced to pour £1.50 petrol into it having been denied £10 unicorn poss by the evil Man. 
Then of course there will be VW's 'CarbonGate' when someone miraculously discovered they've been steaming fossil fuels round the back of the garage to make the CO2.
The Chile Porsche eFuel plant at a recent press event. I guess all that wind must have blown the tarp off this. Whoops! Then of course there will be VW's 'CarbonGate' when someone miraculously discovered they've been steaming fossil fuels round the back of the garage to make the CO2.
GT9 said:
dvs_dave said:
It's only there for the fizzy drinks, honest Guv.Although now we know you develop electric drivetrains, it makes sense why you're so defensive - you see e-fuels as a potential threat to your career.
It's quite funny seeing you guys still arguing about efficiency, whilst totally missing the whole point of the exercise*.
- spoiler alert: it's CO2.
NDNDNDND said:
Why are taking the piss? It's still potentially reusing CO2 that might have otherwise be vented to the atmosphere?
Although now we know you develop electric drivetrains, it makes sense why you're so defensive - you see e-fuels as a potential threat to your career.
It's quite funny seeing you guys still arguing about efficiency, whilst totally missing the whole point of the exercise*.
Well I'm no expert, but I'd suggest that for a fuel to be carbon neutral, the CO2 that will be released when it is burned needed to be extracted from the atmosphere first.Although now we know you develop electric drivetrains, it makes sense why you're so defensive - you see e-fuels as a potential threat to your career.
It's quite funny seeing you guys still arguing about efficiency, whilst totally missing the whole point of the exercise*.
- spoiler alert: it's CO2.
Not just electric drivetrains by the way, combustion based ones as well.
NDNDNDND said:
you see e-fuels as a potential threat to your career.
This is not the case btw, my career is in its twilight.The only threat I see is that petrol might become more expensive because of the cloak and dagger stuff that we will end up paying for.
And that will spoil the fun in my retirement.
I'm just trying to present the facts as I know them.
Happy to be called out if I get them wrong and someone can explain it otherwise.
NDNDNDND said:
Why are taking the piss? It's still potentially reusing CO2 that might have otherwise be vented to the atmosphere?
Although now we know you develop electric drivetrains, it makes sense why you're so defensive - you see e-fuels as a potential threat to your career.
It's quite funny seeing you guys still arguing about efficiency, whilst totally missing the whole point of the exercise*.
It’s possible, but not probable, but it sure as hell didn’t come from renewably powered atmospheric carbon capture, the whole premise of this scheme. Although now we know you develop electric drivetrains, it makes sense why you're so defensive - you see e-fuels as a potential threat to your career.
It's quite funny seeing you guys still arguing about efficiency, whilst totally missing the whole point of the exercise*.
- spoiler alert: it's CO2.
Only defensiveness we’re seeing is from you, as clearly demonstrated by your post. Why’s that? What are you feeling threatened by? The basic physics of it all spelling things out so undeniably, your career, or fear of a change that you’re powerless to stop?
All that aside, you’ll still be able to buy petrol for many decades to come to satisfy your need to make brum brum noises with your car, as I will also enjoy doing when appropriate.
That's the crux of it really.
It's all well and good sitting in the audience getting a stirring in the loins from the magic trick but I want to see behind the curtain on this occasion.
These plants are going to have an insatiable appetite for CO2.
If you were a chemical giant and you knew you could reform natural gas into hydrogen and CO2, whilst at the same time selling that CO2 to claim that your hydrogen is blue, I think your ears would prick up.
Never mind that the real-world carbon footprint of blue hydrogen might be far worse than what you can probably get away with self-certifying.
Imagine if you could also find a way to sell that blue hydrogen to the highest bidder, who just happened to own an underground pipeline in Chile.
Temptation is an evil b
d.
It's all well and good sitting in the audience getting a stirring in the loins from the magic trick but I want to see behind the curtain on this occasion.
These plants are going to have an insatiable appetite for CO2.
If you were a chemical giant and you knew you could reform natural gas into hydrogen and CO2, whilst at the same time selling that CO2 to claim that your hydrogen is blue, I think your ears would prick up.
Never mind that the real-world carbon footprint of blue hydrogen might be far worse than what you can probably get away with self-certifying.
Imagine if you could also find a way to sell that blue hydrogen to the highest bidder, who just happened to own an underground pipeline in Chile.
Temptation is an evil b
d.Malbut said:
I thought the emphasis had now moved from CO2 to NOx as far as pollution is concerned.
Do these synthetic fuels reduce NOx?
If not, what's their point other than evading the use of electricity?
It'll be German NOx though, which everyone knows is just engineered better than other NOx. Do these synthetic fuels reduce NOx?
If not, what's their point other than evading the use of electricity?
NDNDNDND said:
Why are taking the piss? It's still potentially reusing CO2 that might have otherwise be vented to the atmosphere?
Although now we know you develop electric drivetrains, it makes sense why you're so defensive - you see e-fuels as a potential threat to your career.
It's quite funny seeing you guys still arguing about efficiency, whilst totally missing the whole point of the exercise*.
Because that CO2 wasn't ever going to be vented into the atmosphere. It's been captured specifically so that the industry producing it could claim a tax credit or avoid a tax penalty. Although now we know you develop electric drivetrains, it makes sense why you're so defensive - you see e-fuels as a potential threat to your career.
It's quite funny seeing you guys still arguing about efficiency, whilst totally missing the whole point of the exercise*.
- spoiler alert: it's CO2.
And instead of it being sequestered, VW are going to release it into the atmosphere for money.
But to scale up production to viable levels they'll actually have to specifically manufacture CO2 (from fossil fuels as that's the only viable source of carbon) which will obviously then be released into the atmosphere.
And the hydrogen that VW seizes to facilitate the releasing of the CO2 into the atmosphere is hydrogen that then can't be used to decarbonise the hydrogen industry itself.
It's total madness and shows the absolute desperate state Germany now finds itself in. Which is all very sad.
Malbut said:
I thought the emphasis had now moved from CO2 to NOx as far as pollution is concerned.
Do these synthetic fuels reduce NOx?
If not, what's their point other than evading the use of electricity?
NOx is a pollutant affecting air quality. Do these synthetic fuels reduce NOx?
If not, what's their point other than evading the use of electricity?
CO2 is causing climate change, as illustrated in episode 6 of the BBC’s Frozen Planet II, available on iPlayer. Spoiler alert: it’s scary.
Edited by NGK210 on Sunday 26th March 23:04
Pan Pan Pan said:
You have to be mindful that the EV zealots have a vested interest in dismissing any vehicle fueling technology other than electric, for new vehicles.
They seem to be desperate to avoid the possibility of being left holding the Betamax version of a car, and consequently try to denigrate all other methods of powering a vehicle for the future, by ignoring all the downsides of using an EV, and `bigging' up any advantages an EV can provide, whilst doing the exact opposite for ANY other vehicle fueling technology. You have to look for the vested interest to get a clearer picture of what is happening.
They seem to be desperate to avoid the possibility of being left holding the Betamax version of a car, and consequently try to denigrate all other methods of powering a vehicle for the future, by ignoring all the downsides of using an EV, and `bigging' up any advantages an EV can provide, whilst doing the exact opposite for ANY other vehicle fueling technology. You have to look for the vested interest to get a clearer picture of what is happening.
Bless
Surely just give them square fuel filler holes, and synthetic fuel pumps have matching nozzles, and the round petrol / diesel ones don't fit.
If someone goes above and beyond by making an adapter so they can put dino-fuel in plant-fuel cars - then that is down to them - same as people running diesels on home made fuel currently - it isn't allowed, but it isn't the responsibility of the OEM to stop you.
If someone goes above and beyond by making an adapter so they can put dino-fuel in plant-fuel cars - then that is down to them - same as people running diesels on home made fuel currently - it isn't allowed, but it isn't the responsibility of the OEM to stop you.
Arsecati said:
I don't really care how expensive petrol or efuels get in the future - I'm loaded!
Yeeeehaaaa!!!!! Gonna git me some more V8's!!! Woooohoooooo!!!!
This is actually what I think they should do.Yeeeehaaaa!!!!! Gonna git me some more V8's!!! Woooohoooooo!!!!
Mandate that after 2035, all ICE engines must be of a minimum capacity, a minimum number of cylinders and no turbo-charging allowed.
I'm thinking 5 litres and V8.
The resulting fuel consumption and running costs will limit the target market to ensure most people choose EV....
Supercharging will also be permitted.
GT9 said:
This is actually what I think they should do.
Mandate that after 2035, all ICE engines must be of a minimum capacity, a minimum number of cylinders and no turbo-charging allowed.
I'm thinking 5 litres and V8.
The resulting fuel consumption and running costs will limit the target market to ensure most people choose EV....
Supercharging will also be permitted.
A genius solution. From 2035 minimum cylinder cc to be 500 and minimum number of cylinders 8. Mandate that after 2035, all ICE engines must be of a minimum capacity, a minimum number of cylinders and no turbo-charging allowed.
I'm thinking 5 litres and V8.
The resulting fuel consumption and running costs will limit the target market to ensure most people choose EV....
Supercharging will also be permitted.
I wouldn't permit forced induction as that would just be a means for poor people who can only afford to run a V8 to get V12 performance.
Of course, years ago we could have done the switch by just reducing the amount that could be borrowed against an ICE each year while leaving EV finance wide open. Capping finance at £20k for ICE would have pushed almost everyone into trying to go EV just to get a nice car.
Either way, I suspect most people would agree that the control freakery way we've gone about incentivising EVs has been silly.
DonkeyApple said:
A genius solution. From 2035 minimum cylinder cc to be 500 and minimum number of cylinders 8.
I wouldn't permit forced induction as that would just be a means for poor people who can only afford to run a V8 to get V12 performance.
Of course, years ago we could have done the switch by just reducing the amount that could be borrowed against an ICE each year while leaving EV finance wide open. Capping finance at £20k for ICE would have pushed almost everyone into trying to go EV just to get a nice car.
Either way, I suspect most people would agree that the control freakery way we've gone about incentivising EVs has been silly.
Settled!I wouldn't permit forced induction as that would just be a means for poor people who can only afford to run a V8 to get V12 performance.
Of course, years ago we could have done the switch by just reducing the amount that could be borrowed against an ICE each year while leaving EV finance wide open. Capping finance at £20k for ICE would have pushed almost everyone into trying to go EV just to get a nice car.
Either way, I suspect most people would agree that the control freakery way we've gone about incentivising EVs has been silly.
4 litres and above.
8 cylinders and above.
Naturally-aspirated petrol engines only.
That would bring about the return of some truly spectacular engines, most people will choose EV, and we can leave the (not)carbon-neutral e-fuels for aviation.
GT9 said:
DonkeyApple said:
A genius solution. From 2035 minimum cylinder cc to be 500 and minimum number of cylinders 8.
I wouldn't permit forced induction as that would just be a means for poor people who can only afford to run a V8 to get V12 performance.
Of course, years ago we could have done the switch by just reducing the amount that could be borrowed against an ICE each year while leaving EV finance wide open. Capping finance at £20k for ICE would have pushed almost everyone into trying to go EV just to get a nice car.
Either way, I suspect most people would agree that the control freakery way we've gone about incentivising EVs has been silly.
Settled!I wouldn't permit forced induction as that would just be a means for poor people who can only afford to run a V8 to get V12 performance.
Of course, years ago we could have done the switch by just reducing the amount that could be borrowed against an ICE each year while leaving EV finance wide open. Capping finance at £20k for ICE would have pushed almost everyone into trying to go EV just to get a nice car.
Either way, I suspect most people would agree that the control freakery way we've gone about incentivising EVs has been silly.
4 litres and above.
8 cylinders and above.
Naturally-aspirated petrol engines only.
That would bring about the return of some truly spectacular engines, most people will choose EV, and we can leave the (not)carbon-neutral e-fuels for aviation.
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