RE: Vote for the best saloon of the last 25 years!

[white_goodman]

TameRacingDriver said:

If I needed a car for doing long motorway trips or town driving, then I can see an electric car being the best tool for the job, no question. Quiet, smooth, refined, easy to drive, quick, and responsive.

Would I buy one as a fun car to enjoy on a weekend? Definitely not.

Given that this is Pistonheads, and these cars are supposed to be fun cars, then I see no reason to include a Tesla.

I'm with a few others on here, I don't have ANY interest in most modern cars now simply because they've got no soul / character anymore. They are literally just appliances to get from A-B in my opinion.

Will there ever be any fun ones? I guess there probably will be eventually, but I can't see me ever having fond memories of them like the ICE cars of old.

I thought that EVs sucked for long motorway trips though, as the sustained high speed really kills your range. I'm not anti-EV. I could see me getting one as a 2nd car for short trips/urban driving/short commutes etc, something like a Corsa-e/e-208/i3 for example but as a larger "family" car for want of a better word for longer trips and indeed for fun, I'd still favour ICE.

Wouldn't hurt to put a Tesla on the list though. I'm impressed by the technology but they leave me a bit cold (mind you, so does the Bugatti Veyron). I would be surprised if it won but at least its fans couldn't say the vote was rigged.

If one brand can make EVs desirable though, it could be Porsche. Of all the EVs, I wouldn't mind trying the Taycan. My friend who is an EV fan though, drove the Turbo S and said that it was "painfully" ie unpleasantly fast, so thought the 4S would be ample.

Shame there aren't really any electric sports cars yet. An electric TT/SLK/Nissan Z would make me want an EV much more than another bloated SUV/crossover. The new EV Boxster/Cayman could be pretty good though. If they can get the weight down to the ICE equivalent and/or manage to hide the feeling of inertia in the corners, punching through some corners with instant acceleration coming out the other side could be quite fun. Despite the absence of a Flat 6 soundtrack, gliding through the countryside with the top down in near silence could be quite an experience too.

[dvshannow]

Julian Scott said:

dvshannow said:

There is no reason EVs cannot be fun

The problem with current EVs I think is they are heavy and their performance is so linear which is a bad combination for enjoying them on the road

Electric go karts can be a hoot

At some point we will have properly lightweight enthusiast aimed EVs which will be a lot more visceral- however I don’t see an EV being more fun to drive on a public road than a good ICE manual as you cannot replace the noise and interaction with the car via clutch, the vibration etc with instant torque

This said, a Tesla model S should be in the list IMO it’s prob one of the most important cars, let alone saloons of the 2010s , and it’s more a saloon than a GR Yaris is a hot hatch ?? - and I doubt that many would vote for it.

Go drive a Taycan (with an open mind), then come back.

I do like the Taycan , and have driven on albeit not extensively. Stand by what said above and while it is technically a superb car it doesn’t compare with a good ICE Porsche for driving enjoyment - though it would be above a number of the ICE cars on the PH shortlist for me. EVs don’t work as GT cars for now combination of range + availability of fast charging means you need to plan trips and so they are too compromised - it the future ofc it will be ICE cars you need to plan trips with as petrol availability declines

[herebebeasties]

white_goodman said:

I thought that EVs sucked for long motorway trips though, as the sustained high speed really kills your range.
[...]
Of all the EVs, I wouldn't mind trying the Taycan. My friend [...] thought the 4S would be ample.
[...]
Shame there aren't really any electric sports cars yet.

Tesla seems to be in a bit of class of its own there, excepting the Merc EQS and Kia e-Niro perhaps. Many of the SUVs certainly suck for long range. Frontal area isn't helpful. Cd is irrelevant without the area - it's Cda that matters, plus rolling resistance. A lot of EVs seem to rapidly get into the spiral of bigger car, bigger wheels & tyres => more rolling resistance & drag => worse range.

Motorways (pretty much worldwide) have Tesla Superchargers, which makes Teslas perfectly capable long distance tools, provided it's not a bank holiday at least. The vagaries and unreliability of the charging network may make other brands less good choices, although that seems to be improving, perhaps.

I tried pretty much every decent-sized EV before getting a Model 3 LR including an ID.4, I-PACE, EV-6, Ioniq 5, e-Niro and Taycan 4S. The Taycan was by far the best driver's car of the lot, but it is so very badly packaged - they are vast especially in width, yet have comparatively little space, especially in the boot even with the Cross Turismo version. There is just so little width between the wheel arch intrusions. The Model 3 is much smaller but has bags more space in it, not to mention the relatively big frunk, etc. WIth the Taycan, I just couldn't square the lack of practicality and the amount of breathing in when going down B-roads with the price, despite the impressive ride and dynamics generally. The I-PACE was probably actually the best car for the money, especially dynamically and second hand. It's unfortunate that the range is so poor at motorways speed (plenty of reports of only ~150 miles in winter), and the charging speed sucks. Otherwise I'd have got one of those.

Anyway, this thread probably shouldn't be about EVs. :-)

[V1nce Fox]

The e39 m5 is the sweet spot of saloons for me. Everything felt just right about them.

[dvshannow]

V1nce Fox said:

The e39 m5 is the sweet spot of saloons for me. Everything felt just right about them.

Yes it’s so clearly the winner here thread is meandering around EVs

Think that the #2 place could be for the best smaller sports saloon and #3 best rally saloon

[kylos27]

Mk1/2 focus

/end of discussion

[BSSBMW]

The E39 M5 is shaping up to be the winner and rightly so!

Never mind about the sublime balance of handling/comfort/refinement/performance...... there are examples out there still going without major surgery with circa half a million miles on them!

Testament to when BMW made quality products.

My choices were,

E39 M5 (obvs!)
E46 M3 (because E46 M3)
G20 Alpina B3 (well actually G21 Alpina B3 touring for the fast estate)

[Gad-Westy]

This thread has really got my M5 lust triggered again. E39 was always my favourite but at the prices they sit at now, and my new found love of estates I could be tempted by an E61 and manual swap it. Currently ‘slumming’ it in a B8 S4 which I think could have made its own case for being on this list. The steering isn’t great and the engine is a little characterless but the rest of the car is genuinely excellent.

[BSSBMW]

Gad-Westy said:

This thread has really got my M5 lust triggered again. E39 was always my favourite but at the prices they sit at now, and my new found love of estates I could be tempted by an E61 and manual swap it. Currently ‘slumming’ it in a B8 S4 which I think could have made its own case for being on this list. The steering isn’t great and the engine is a little characterless but the rest of the car is genuinely excellent.

Or you could build an E39 M5 touring like me!

I'm on my second.

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

[TameRacingDriver]

dvshannow said:

V1nce Fox said:

The e39 m5 is the sweet spot of saloons for me. Everything felt just right about them.

Yes it’s so clearly the winner here thread is meandering around EVs

Think that the #2 place could be for the best smaller sports saloon and #3 best rally saloon

Not sure, the Alfa Quad is getting some votes too I reckon. Definitely between those two I would say.

[martin12345]

Well if the Alfa wins, based on what happened with the Hot Hatches, there will be loads of complaints about "modernism"
Whereas if the E39 wins there will be loads of complaints about "rose tinted glasses" !!!!

[E90_M3Ross]

martin12345 said:

Well if the Alfa wins, based on what happened with the Hot Hatches, there will be loads of complaints about "modernism"
Whereas if the E39 wins there will be loads of complaints about "rose tinted glasses" !!!!

To an extent. I went in an E39 M5 recently and whilst it was far from slow it was not exactly rapid. Quick enough for some fun? I think so, but I wouldn't want it any slower. Bit wallowy by today's standards, too! Nice car, nonetheless and I think what makes it a great is that it was above its peers by some margin.

[carlo996]

As the E34 is ruled out, E39 M5.

[Gad-Westy]

BSSBMW said:

Gad-Westy said:

This thread has really got my M5 lust triggered again. E39 was always my favourite but at the prices they sit at now, and my new found love of estates I could be tempted by an E61 and manual swap it. Currently ‘slumming’ it in a B8 S4 which I think could have made its own case for being on this list. The steering isn’t great and the engine is a little characterless but the rest of the car is genuinely excellent.

Or you could build an E39 M5 touring like me!

I'm on my second.

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

I know. I’ve already been in touch with you about it

[TameRacingDriver]

martin12345 said:

Well if the Alfa wins, based on what happened with the Hot Hatches, there will be loads of complaints about "modernism"
Whereas if the E39 wins there will be loads of complaints about "rose tinted glasses" !!!!

Can't please everyone eh

[carlo996]

dvshannow said:

This said, a Tesla model S should be in the list IMO it’s prob one of the most important cars, let alone saloons of the 2010s

It's the 'best saloon', not 'most important EV'. Which is the USP of the Tesla.

[dvshannow]

carlo996 said:

dvshannow said:

This said, a Tesla model S should be in the list IMO it’s prob one of the most important cars, let alone saloons of the 2010s

It's the 'best saloon', not 'most important EV'. Which is the USP of the Tesla.

But it is also a saloon 🤷‍♂️

[cerb4.5lee]

TameRacingDriver said:

martin12345 said:

Well if the Alfa wins, based on what happened with the Hot Hatches, there will be loads of complaints about "modernism"
Whereas if the E39 wins there will be loads of complaints about "rose tinted glasses" !!!!

Can't please everyone eh

It wouldn't surprise me if the GR Yaris won this and it's not even in the list!

Someone would try to shoehorn it in somewhere I reckon.

[Gad-Westy]

dvshannow said:

carlo996 said:

dvshannow said:

This said, a Tesla model S should be in the list IMO it’s prob one of the most important cars, let alone saloons of the 2010s

It's the 'best saloon', not 'most important EV'. Which is the USP of the Tesla.

But it is also a saloon ?????

Ermmm,

[E90_M3Ross]

dvshannow said:

carlo996 said:

dvshannow said:

This said, a Tesla model S should be in the list IMO it’s prob one of the most important cars, let alone saloons of the 2010s

It's the 'best saloon', not 'most important EV'. Which is the USP of the Tesla.

But it is also a saloon ?????

It depends on what you're after from a saloon. Do you want something just purely to get you from A to B? Yes, it's very good - unless you have to drive a long way and don't want to spend ages at a charging station.

Do you, like many on this site I would assume, want something interesting to drive as well? I have yet to read/watch a review saying that things like steering feel, handling etc is anything to shout about.