RE: Vote for the best saloon of the last 25 years!

[TameRacingDriver]

cerb4.5lee said:

TameRacingDriver said:

martin12345 said:

Well if the Alfa wins, based on what happened with the Hot Hatches, there will be loads of complaints about "modernism"
Whereas if the E39 wins there will be loads of complaints about "rose tinted glasses" !!!!

Can't please everyone eh

It wouldn't surprise me if the GR Yaris won this and it's not even in the list!

Someone would try to shoehorn it in somewhere I reckon.

I reckon you'll end up with one one day

[Boom78]

Just to back up many previous posts:

C63
E46 M3
E39 M5

Loads of others that were faster or technically brilliant but those 3 are legendary.

[zippy3x]

BSSBMW said:

The E39 M5 is shaping up to be the winner and rightly so!

Never mind about the sublime balance of handling/comfort/refinement/performance....

I think that's a good list to define a truly great saloon car (on PH at least). Only issue with your argument is that the Alfa is superior in two of those categories, and far far superior in the other two.

[AppleJuice]

Glad to see my nomination for the Rover 75 V8 (but with pre-Project Drive & facelift quality / fit & finish, Modular SOHC 24v 306 PS variant, 6-speed manual & 5-speed auto) has gone unnoticed amongst all the EV arguing

[cerb4.5lee]

TameRacingDriver said:

cerb4.5lee said:

TameRacingDriver said:

martin12345 said:

Well if the Alfa wins, based on what happened with the Hot Hatches, there will be loads of complaints about "modernism"
Whereas if the E39 wins there will be loads of complaints about "rose tinted glasses" !!!!

Can't please everyone eh

It wouldn't surprise me if the GR Yaris won this and it's not even in the list!

Someone would try to shoehorn it in somewhere I reckon.

I reckon you'll end up with one one day

[dvshannow]

E90_M3Ross said:

dvshannow said:

carlo996 said:

dvshannow said:

This said, a Tesla model S should be in the list IMO it’s prob one of the most important cars, let alone saloons of the 2010s

It's the 'best saloon', not 'most important EV'. Which is the USP of the Tesla.

But it is also a saloon ?????

It depends on what you're after from a saloon. Do you want something just purely to get you from A to B? Yes, it's very good - unless you have to drive a long way and don't want to spend ages at a charging station.

Do you, like many on this site I would assume, want something interesting to drive as well? I have yet to read/watch a review saying that things like steering feel, handling etc is anything to shout about.

That’s why I said thought it should be included but that it would not do very well - it wouldn’t have had one of my 3 votes. It would feature high on my list of most influential cars ever.

[E90_M3Ross]

dvshannow said:

E90_M3Ross said:

dvshannow said:

carlo996 said:

dvshannow said:

This said, a Tesla model S should be in the list IMO it’s prob one of the most important cars, let alone saloons of the 2010s

It's the 'best saloon', not 'most important EV'. Which is the USP of the Tesla.

But it is also a saloon ?????

It depends on what you're after from a saloon. Do you want something just purely to get you from A to B? Yes, it's very good - unless you have to drive a long way and don't want to spend ages at a charging station.

Do you, like many on this site I would assume, want something interesting to drive as well? I have yet to read/watch a review saying that things like steering feel, handling etc is anything to shout about.

That’s why I said thought it should be included but that it would not do very well - it wouldn’t have had one of my 3 votes. It would feature high on my list of most influential cars ever.

I wasn't necessarily agreeing or disagreeing that the Tesla is a great saloon, but I was agreeing with you that it is at least influential. It certainly isn't a saloon car I'd pick, but I can understand why it might be on the list for some.

[tamore]

alfa 155 v6

[BSSBMW]

zippy3x said:

BSSBMW said:

The E39 M5 is shaping up to be the winner and rightly so!

Never mind about the sublime balance of handling/comfort/refinement/performance....

I think that's a good list to define a truly great saloon car (on PH at least). Only issue with your argument is that the Alfa is superior in two of those categories, and far far superior in the other two.

Near on two decades separate them but please elaborate.

[waynedear]

tamore said:

alfa 155 v6

I had 2 and a V6 156, they are my equal 1st.

[Julian Scott]

E90_M3Ross said:

Julian Scott said:

dvshannow said:

There is no reason EVs cannot be fun

The problem with current EVs I think is they are heavy and their performance is so linear which is a bad combination for enjoying them on the road

Electric go karts can be a hoot

At some point we will have properly lightweight enthusiast aimed EVs which will be a lot more visceral- however I don’t see an EV being more fun to drive on a public road than a good ICE manual as you cannot replace the noise and interaction with the car via clutch, the vibration etc with instant torque

This said, a Tesla model S should be in the list IMO it’s prob one of the most important cars, let alone saloons of the 2010s , and it’s more a saloon than a GR Yaris is a hot hatch ?? - and I doubt that many would vote for it.

Go drive a Taycan (with an open mind), then come back.

I haven't driven one, but a friend got a Taycan Turbo after selling a 911. After 6 months he took a bath and got another 911 and sold it.

He took a bath on a 6 month old Taycan? Do you what has happened to Taycan prices over the last few months?

.....and coming from a 911, what was he looking for in a large saloon? That he then found in another 911?

[Julian Scott]

ITP said:

How many Taycan owners got them with the overriding reason actually being the tax benefits?
I’m going with at least 90%. Would they have bought one anyway, maybe some of course but it won’t be many.

Straw poll, but most owners I know don't benefit from over-riding tax benefits beyond RFL/CC and running cost benefits.

As I say above. Go drive a Taycan, then tell me you prefer a BMW 5-series.

[Julian Scott]

dvshannow said:

Julian Scott said:

dvshannow said:

There is no reason EVs cannot be fun

The problem with current EVs I think is they are heavy and their performance is so linear which is a bad combination for enjoying them on the road

Electric go karts can be a hoot

At some point we will have properly lightweight enthusiast aimed EVs which will be a lot more visceral- however I don’t see an EV being more fun to drive on a public road than a good ICE manual as you cannot replace the noise and interaction with the car via clutch, the vibration etc with instant torque

This said, a Tesla model S should be in the list IMO it’s prob one of the most important cars, let alone saloons of the 2010s , and it’s more a saloon than a GR Yaris is a hot hatch ?? - and I doubt that many would vote for it.

Go drive a Taycan (with an open mind), then come back.

I do like the Taycan , and have driven on albeit not extensively. Stand by what said above and while it is technically a superb car it doesn’t compare with a good ICE Porsche for driving enjoyment - though it would be above a number of the ICE cars on the PH shortlist for me. EVs don’t work as GT cars for now combination of range + availability of fast charging means you need to plan trips and so they are too compromised - it the future ofc it will be ICE cars you need to plan trips with as petrol availability declines

A good Porsche ICE - true. It won't be as involving as a Cayman/911 etc....but what about a Panamera? I'd choose a Taycan over a Penny for an afternoon regardless of the roads.

[Julian Scott]

V1nce Fox said:

The e39 m5 is the sweet spot of saloons for me. Everything felt just right about them.

I'd walk right past the E39 M5 to climb into the Giulia Quadrifoglio every day of the week.

[Julian Scott]

E90_M3Ross said:

dvshannow said:

carlo996 said:

dvshannow said:

This said, a Tesla model S should be in the list IMO it’s prob one of the most important cars, let alone saloons of the 2010s

It's the 'best saloon', not 'most important EV'. Which is the USP of the Tesla.

But it is also a saloon ?????

It depends on what you're after from a saloon. Do you want something just purely to get you from A to B? Yes, it's very good - unless you have to drive a long way and don't want to spend ages at a charging station.

Do you, like many on this site I would assume, want something interesting to drive as well? I have yet to read/watch a review saying that things like steering feel, handling etc is anything to shout about.

Unless you do monthly transcontinental trips, your argument is a bit 2015. A Tesla owning friend and I go up to Edinburgh 2 or 3 times per year with our families. His 229 mile e/w journey is almost always quicker than mine...because he doesn't take a dog that needs a pee half way up.

He also saves further time when there because he doesn't need to drive to find a SUL fuel station.

[E90_M3Ross]

Julian Scott said:

Unless you do monthly transcontinental trips, your argument is a bit 2015. A Tesla owning friend and I go up to Edinburgh 2 or 3 times per year with our families. His 229 mile e/w journey is almost always quicker than mine...because he doesn't take a dog that needs a pee half way up.

He also saves further time when there because he doesn't need to drive to find a SUL fuel station.

I meant long drives. Next month I'm doing 580 in a day. Last time I did that my overall stop time was 30mins, including refuelling. I appreciate that's a rare use scenario but doing over 300/day isn't too uncommon.

[Julian Scott]

E90_M3Ross said:

Julian Scott said:

Unless you do monthly transcontinental trips, your argument is a bit 2015. A Tesla owning friend and I go up to Edinburgh 2 or 3 times per year with our families. His 229 mile e/w journey is almost always quicker than mine...because he doesn't take a dog that needs a pee half way up.

He also saves further time when there because he doesn't need to drive to find a SUL fuel station.

I meant long drives. Next month I'm doing 580 in a day. Last time I did that my overall stop time was 30mins, including refuelling. I appreciate that's a rare use scenario but doing over 300/day isn't too uncommon.

Doing over 300/day is very uncommon. And for that 0.000001% of the population, an electric car is unlikely to work as an only car.

Ditto, for the similar percentage of adults that own a double bass, a lotus Elise is unlikely to work as an only car.


Plus, FWIW, driving 580 miles with only a 30min stop is not really sensible.

[martin12345]

I regularly drive 150 to 200 miles, spend a day at a race track and then drive home in the evening
I have never seen a charge point at any (kart) race track (yet)

Most (all) EV's would not be able to do this without a stop to charge going one way or the other, particularly as it constant motorway speeds (70 MPH) the range is about 20 to 40% less than the WLTC value depending on the time of year (20% in spring/autumn, 30% in summer, 40% in winter most likely)

I also sometimes go camping and also many of the hotels I have stayed at have no charging

The reality is that for the majority of long journeys you have to plan to charge on the journey with an enforced 30 to 60 minute break whereas in my "gas guzzler" a 5 to 10 min break for toilet and coffee is all I need.

Assuming no queue to charge (normally the case, but no guarantee) that would put 90 minutes on an already long 14 to 15 hour away from home which I do on average once a month

I shalln't be in a EV any time soon

[braddo]

E90_M3Ross said:

I meant long drives. Next month I'm doing 580 in a day. Last time I did that my overall stop time was 30mins, including refuelling. I appreciate that's a rare use scenario but doing over 300/day isn't too uncommon.

580 miles is like London to Aberdeen. 10-12 hours of driving with only 30 minutes of stop time is ludicrous and if it's a solo drive, stupid.

EVs do need some planning for long trips but, exactly as expected, it gets easier to do every year. We're only 3 years in to the period when all manufacturers got serious (because they were forced to) about selling hybrids and electric cars.

Many millions of people don't use their cars for long trips. The longest trips might be to airports to go on holiday!

[E90_M3Ross]

braddo said:

E90_M3Ross said:

I meant long drives. Next month I'm doing 580 in a day. Last time I did that my overall stop time was 30mins, including refuelling. I appreciate that's a rare use scenario but doing over 300/day isn't too uncommon.

580 miles is like London to Aberdeen. 10-12 hours of driving with only 30 minutes of stop time is ludicrous and if it's a solo drive, stupid.

EVs do need some planning for long trips but, exactly as expected, it gets easier to do every year. We're only 3 years in to the period when all manufacturers got serious (because they were forced to) about selling hybrids and electric cars.

Many millions of people don't use their cars for long trips. The longest trips might be to airports to go on holiday!

It was Portsmouth to just past Aviemore. It was fine. I left at around 4:30am on a Saturday. I was there at 1pm