RE: Uncertainty over EU ICE ban resolved
Discussion
Tigger2050 said:
Nomme de Plum said:
I had a quick look and the consumption based Co2 ie the number adjusted for imports and exports is for the UK 6.93T per capita and China 7T so identical,
India comes in at 1.65T
Figures as of end 2020.
Pieceof advice it's better not to insult a person's intelligence whether you know them or not. It's just plain rude.
Don't throw cheap shots and expect nothing in return is what I say.India comes in at 1.65T
Figures as of end 2020.
Pieceof advice it's better not to insult a person's intelligence whether you know them or not. It's just plain rude.
Edited by Nomme de Plum on Wednesday 29th March 17:52
Those figures definitely are meaningless. It has Russia and Saudi Arabia, two of the worlds biggest exporters of fossil fuels, as net importers of CO2. It has Canada and Australia, near the top of the worlds CO2 emitters per capita, as net importers of CO2.
Yeah right!!
Edited by Nomme de Plum on Wednesday 29th March 17:52
Having spent my life estimating stuff fairly successfully for clients so I sometimes go with my gut and the numbers for the UK, China India feel right.
I'm not arguing that India and China will not go up and we are still reducing.
But the UK had a pretty abysmal record in both of those nations so we should cut them some slack. Not that we have much leverage anyway.
It's not a clever position to be the person who refuses to stop s
tting because their neighbour is stting more and you are all up to your bottom lip in it.I quite envy your Crusader btw. Great little cars. I think the Welsh built Davrian used the imp engine as well.
Based on the evidence I've read and the scale of the problem, there is no way any meaningful impact on climate change will be achieved without:
Imposing restrictions on how much (and by what means) people can travel.
Imposing restrictions on what people can eat
Imposing restrictions on how many children people can have
Imposing restrictions on the products people can buy (in terms of the distance between production and consumption locations.
In short, big government!
It's quite hard to think how climate change can be meaningfully tackled without, if not turning society into some sort of dystopian hellhole, at the very least seriously encroaching on many of the freedoms we enjoy today.
Imposing restrictions on how much (and by what means) people can travel.
Imposing restrictions on what people can eat
Imposing restrictions on how many children people can have
Imposing restrictions on the products people can buy (in terms of the distance between production and consumption locations.
In short, big government!
It's quite hard to think how climate change can be meaningfully tackled without, if not turning society into some sort of dystopian hellhole, at the very least seriously encroaching on many of the freedoms we enjoy today.
Limpet said:
Based on the evidence I've read and the scale of the problem, there is no way any meaningful impact on climate change will be achieved without:
Imposing restrictions on how much (and by what means) people can travel.
Imposing restrictions on what people can eat
Imposing restrictions on how many children people can have
Imposing restrictions on the products people can buy (in terms of the distance between production and consumption locations.
In short, big government!
It's quite hard to think how climate change can be meaningfully tackled without, if not turning society into some sort of dystopian hellhole, at the very least seriously encroaching on many of the freedoms we enjoy today.
How much tax are you willing to pay to fund the alternative?Imposing restrictions on how much (and by what means) people can travel.
Imposing restrictions on what people can eat
Imposing restrictions on how many children people can have
Imposing restrictions on the products people can buy (in terms of the distance between production and consumption locations.
In short, big government!
It's quite hard to think how climate change can be meaningfully tackled without, if not turning society into some sort of dystopian hellhole, at the very least seriously encroaching on many of the freedoms we enjoy today.
ATG said:
Breaking the habit of a life time by saying something on topic, the article says something along the lines of a carbon neutral fuel being one in which the amount of carbon released by burning the fuel is equal to the amount absorbed by its creation.
But that is not really important from an environmental perspective. What we care about is the concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere.
Bio fuels create a carbon cycle. It'll be locally reducing CO2 concentrations where the biomass is being grown, but at the expense of increasing the average atmospheric CO2 concentration everywhere else and that will increase the greenhouse effect.
It's clearly far less damaging than burning fossil fuels, and it looks at the moment that the volumes of biofuel that'll be produced will be inconsequentially small, but it doesn't seem to me that biofuels are particularly "green". Same argument applies to burning biomass in general.
The issue with biofuels is that demand drives deforestation and food instability. The EU has technically just created issues for millions of globally poor just to appease a handful of wealthy old white dudes. But that is not really important from an environmental perspective. What we care about is the concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere.
Bio fuels create a carbon cycle. It'll be locally reducing CO2 concentrations where the biomass is being grown, but at the expense of increasing the average atmospheric CO2 concentration everywhere else and that will increase the greenhouse effect.
It's clearly far less damaging than burning fossil fuels, and it looks at the moment that the volumes of biofuel that'll be produced will be inconsequentially small, but it doesn't seem to me that biofuels are particularly "green". Same argument applies to burning biomass in general.
The issue with eFuels is that they need a carbon supply that can only be met from fossil fuels. Interestingly, the EU nations pushing were the ones with large lignite reserves. Which is handy.
The big risk of this strategy is that when it backfires it could speed up the end of petrol as part of the backlash of yet another massive German automotive fraud.
Hill92 said:
Can new M3s or C63s still be created without the hundreds of thousands of 318is and C180s to amortise 3 Series/C series development, supply chain and production costs across?
Continuing existing halo models as standalone ICE models in an EV world may not be accessible to many PHers unlike today.
Also what will these cars look like by 2035 with Euro 7/8/9 and other ICE requirements by then?
That is a problem of course, but I suppose it depends on how much they are willing to compromise with the platform. Peugeot have made the 208 so it can be ICE, hybrid and BEV, so it's possible to make a platform capable of doing everything. You could argue that it's not worth it for a single halo model, but I guess it depends on how much BMW want to sell ICE M3s to people (if they decide they want to of course). On the flip side, Toyota took the Yaris platform and modified it heavily to produce the GR Yaris, which was sold at an affordable price (as a loss leader no doubt).Continuing existing halo models as standalone ICE models in an EV world may not be accessible to many PHers unlike today.
Also what will these cars look like by 2035 with Euro 7/8/9 and other ICE requirements by then?
Nothing is set in stone at this point, but it will definitely be interesting to see if any manufacturers change tact now the EU has changed the legislation.
starsky67 said:
How will the network to deliver efuels be financially possible when the numbers of cars that have to use it will be so small?
There won’t be pumps at every filling station
Existing vehicles either won’t be able to use it or will continue to use fossil fuel as they will be cheaper.
You will fill up at race tracks, private clubs and Michelin starred establishments. There won’t be pumps at every filling station
Existing vehicles either won’t be able to use it or will continue to use fossil fuel as they will be cheaper.
Nomme de Plum said:
Wab1974uk said:
There is lots out there. Go research it.
Asking for evidence while watching the BBC for yours.
But while the media and Google (and similar) refuse to report / show it then only one side (the agenda) gets shown.
^^^^ That is not normal ^^^^
So basically no. Asking for evidence while watching the BBC for yours.
But while the media and Google (and similar) refuse to report / show it then only one side (the agenda) gets shown.
^^^^ That is not normal ^^^^
It is customary for a person making an assertion rather than stating an opinion to provide some evidence.
DonkeyApple said:
starsky67 said:
How will the network to deliver efuels be financially possible when the numbers of cars that have to use it will be so small?
There won’t be pumps at every filling station
Existing vehicles either won’t be able to use it or will continue to use fossil fuel as they will be cheaper.
You will fill up at race tracks, private clubs and Michelin starred establishments. There won’t be pumps at every filling station
Existing vehicles either won’t be able to use it or will continue to use fossil fuel as they will be cheaper.
starsky67 said:
DonkeyApple said:
starsky67 said:
How will the network to deliver efuels be financially possible when the numbers of cars that have to use it will be so small?
There won’t be pumps at every filling station
Existing vehicles either won’t be able to use it or will continue to use fossil fuel as they will be cheaper.
You will fill up at race tracks, private clubs and Michelin starred establishments. There won’t be pumps at every filling station
Existing vehicles either won’t be able to use it or will continue to use fossil fuel as they will be cheaper.
You can get race fuel barrels delivered to home, so perhaps it’ll be the same for E-fuels.
1974foggy said:
Do your own research, even car manufacturers know electric isnt the way forward. Look into how the minerals are mined, what happens to dead batteries and their expected life, how the WEF want the vast majority out of cars and in 15 - 20 min cities - its all there unless you choose to ignore it and pretend it isnt already happening.
Welcome to 2023, the thread linked below is going blow your mind, so much exciting news about EV batteries!https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
df76 said:
It’ll be interesting to see whether it ever becomes available on a forecourt.. and there will be a tipping point where petrol stations start to disappear / get converted into rapid charge stations.
You can get race fuel barrels delivered to home, so perhaps it’ll be the same for E-fuels.
In which case why bother with efuels at all? Why not just tax new ICE vehicles after 2035 the cost of offsetting their lifetime predicted CO2 emissions, allow them to run on regular fuel and avoid wasting renewable energy in a wasteful process of making efuels?You can get race fuel barrels delivered to home, so perhaps it’ll be the same for E-fuels.
It literally makes no sense.
DriveSnowdonia said:
There is a good reason why vegetarians and vegans normally need to supplement heavily if they are to avoid certain health issues.
If you're going to make stupid statements, then at least get your facts right. Vegetarians and vegans are NOT the same in any way, shape or form. Yes, vegans absolutely need either supplements or fortified foods to ensure they get the correct nutrition to maintain a healthy existence, so is both unnatural and unhealthy in my opinion. But vegetarians most definitely do NOT: Eggs, milk, cheese, etc., all still staples of a vegetarian diet - not a supplement in sight, so please do not conflate the two, thank you.(I'm a 3 time 10 hour Ironman, will be running my 17th marathon in Lithuania in 3 weeks time with 3 more booked later in the year, I finished 33/640+ at the Helsinki Marathon last August, even though I'm 51 competing against 20-30 year olds. And yes, I'm vegetarian, and have been for well over 30 years - though I NEVER preach about it and keep my opinions about it to myself, unless provoked by others spouting misinformation of course!)
Wab1974uk said:
Yep, I love to get my news from the Polish version of Fox News also, especially their opinions on the LGBT community and Jews!df76 said:
starsky67 said:
DonkeyApple said:
starsky67 said:
How will the network to deliver efuels be financially possible when the numbers of cars that have to use it will be so small?
There won’t be pumps at every filling station
Existing vehicles either won’t be able to use it or will continue to use fossil fuel as they will be cheaper.
You will fill up at race tracks, private clubs and Michelin starred establishments. There won’t be pumps at every filling station
Existing vehicles either won’t be able to use it or will continue to use fossil fuel as they will be cheaper.
You can get race fuel barrels delivered to home, so perhaps it’ll be the same for E-fuels.
The issue with domestic petrol deliveries is that the insurance industry limits how much petrol their customers are allowed at home but if you have a lid of land and outbuildings then you can already have Aspen deliver their zero ethanol petrol for your classics.
1974foggy said:
Do your own research, even car manufacturers know electric isn't the way forward.
I did my own research, and posted this only two days ago on this very thread...Half of them saying 100% electric before the ban, the other half saying mostly electric.
Funny way of saying electric isn't the way forward.
And many of those listed below are making commitments to near 100% recycling of the batteries when the feedstock is sufficient to achieve that.
Of course this is all one hell of a big joke, and you have inside knowledge that says otherwise.
I respect that you won't be able to share it of course, in case the WEF come visiting in the night.
Mercedes
“Step by step, we see the market turning. I really believe that in this decade, we will flip from being based upon high tech internal combustion engines to going dominant electric, if not all electric, in the luxury segment.
We’ve all realized that climate change is real, the CO2 problem needs to be solved. And where does that problem end? It ends on the desks of our engineers.
“We do it because we think it’s right. But we also do it because we think it’s going to be the better business. I don’t think there’s any question for a modern company, a forward-thinking modern company, that we need to decarbonize."
Audi
"Audi’s plan is to have more than 20 fully electric models in its portfolio by 2025. By as early as 2026, the only new models the brand with the four rings releases on the market will be fully electric. The company has made a clear commitment to electromobility in terms of investment planning as well. For instance, in the years 2022 to 2026, Audi intends to invest around 18 billion euros in electrification and hybridization, based on its planning round adopted at the end of 2021. With overall investments of around 37 billion euros, nearly half of the outlays will go to these future-oriented topics."
BMW
"Electric drivetrains are a prerequisite for climate-neutral mobility of the future. This is why the BMW Group is consistently expanding its range of electric vehicles. As early as 2023, the Group will offer at least one fully electric model in virtually all key segments. From 2025 onwards, the BMW Group plans to increase its delivery share of all-electric vehicles to 50% with the Neue Klasse, while also further reducing its carbon footprint over the entire life cycle. In doing so, it will utilize its experience as a pioneer of e-mobility."
VW
"Volkswagen is on its way to ZERO. In concrete terms, this means: the company has committed itself to the targets of the Paris Agreement and the EU’s European Green Deal. The long-term goal is to become completely carbon-neutral by 2050. This is a marathon that starts with a sprint: Volkswagen’s goal for 2030 is to reduce emissions per vehicle in Europe by 40 percent compared to 2018, which means that each Volkswagen vehicle will then emit 17 tonnes less CO2 on average throughout its life-cycle. Volkswagen is eager to make a substantial contribution to mitigating climate change and, at the same time, become the most coveted brand for sustainable mobility.Volkswagen is taking a holistic approach to decarbonisation, which is why its Way to ZERO goes beyond vehicle electrification to include the entire vehicle life-cycle. Between now and 2025 alone, the company will invest approximately €14 billion in decarbonisation measures that will focus on four central pillars. The first pillar is continuing the accelerated electrification of the product portfolio. The second pillar is decarbonising supply chains and production, the cause of half of an electric car’s total carbon emissions. The third pillar is the consistent use of green energy during the usage phase; this will address the remaining 50% of emissions. The fourth pillar is the recycling of batteries."
Porsche
"The electric drive is a double blessing. It will enable Porsche to meet more stringent consumption and emission standards in the future. At the same time, it significantly improves the performance of the vehicles. When it comes to electrification, the focus is on the contrasting pairs of ‘innovation and tradition’ and ‘performance and suitability’ for everyday use. With every new model generation, the sports car manufacturer once again demonstrates its outstanding engineering achievements. The company principle "Perform much, consume little" should be raised to the next level at every juncture."
FORD
"Our march toward an all-electric future is an absolute necessity for Ford to meet the mobility needs of customers across a transforming Europe,” said Stuart Rowley, chair, Ford of Europe. “It’s also about the pressing need for greater care of our planet, making a positive contribution to society and reducing emissions in line with the Paris Climate Agreement. Together, these efforts will support Ford’s global plans to significantly reduce carbon emissions. The company today announced it is targeting zero emissions for all vehicle sales in Europe and carbon neutrality across its European footprint of facilities, logistics and suppliers by 2035."
Ford to introduce three new electric passenger vehicles and four new electric commercial vehicles in Europe by 2024; plans to sell more than 600,000 electric vehicles in the region by 2026.
EV push in Europe supports the acceleration of the Ford+ plan, and global goal of 2 million+ annual production of EVs by 2026 and 10% company adjusted EBIT margin by 2026.
Planned production of electric vehicles in Cologne, Germany, now expected to be 1.2 million vehicles over six years, with a total product investment of $2 billion.
OPEL
"Opel is to become a purely electric car brand by 2028, as part of parent group Stellantis' drive towards sustainable mobility. The carmaker will switch its entire line-up to battery-electric vehicles (BEVs), with the 12 current variants to be joined by a new model based on the Opel Manta."
Rolls Royce
"After years of expectation and inquiry, CEO Torsten Müller- Ötvös stays true to his promise, confirming that Rolls-Royce will be fully electric by the end of this decade."
Bentley
"Bentley’s journey into an electric future continues. The introduction of hybrid technology is an important stage on that journey, with a range of hybrid vehicles now available. In the years ahead, Bentley will reveal its first fully electric vehicle, making the shift to an all-electric line-up by 2030."
Jaguar Land Rover
"Jaguar Land Rover announces a global upskilling drive, in a bid to train 29,000 people in the next three years for its connected and data capabilities, and to support the rapid transition to electrification. Our plans to electrify our product portfolio are running at pace, and we are rapidly scaling up our future skills training programme to ensure we have the right talent to deliver the world’s most desirable modern luxury electric vehicles."
MINI
"MINI will launch its last new model available with internal combustion engines in 2025, and that by 2027 it hopes that 50 per cent of all MINI sales are fully electric. By 2030, the brand's entire line-up will consist of battery-electric vehicles only."
Renault
"For the past decade, Renault Group has been fully committed to the development of large-scale electric mobility. A pioneer in Europe, today its strategy moves up another gear. The Renaulution plan, unveiled in January 2021, focuses on the group’s electric leadership and the unique advantages of its E-TECH, hybrid and plug-in hybrid technology. It aims to widen its electric mobility offer, both in terms of vehicles and services. The objective of Renault Group is simple: to make electric travel accessible to everyone by offering solutions to every need."
Peugeot
"PEUGEOT is on track to deliver bold targets for electrification:
? 2023: every model in the PEUGEOT line-up will be ELECTRIFIED
? 2025: PEUGEOT will have a 100% ELECTRIC OFFER
? 2030: 100% OF PEUGEOTs SOLD IN EUROPE WILL BE 100% ELECTRIC"
Citroen
"At Citroën, we believe electric cars and vans should be accessible to everyone. That's why we offer an affordable range of nine electric and hybrid models, from the Ami 100% electric up to the cavernous ë-Relay. Our fully electric range consists of the Ami, ë-C4, ë-Berlingo and ë-SpaceTourer, with the latter comfortably accommodating up to nine. If you are looking for a plug-in hybrid, choose from the New C5 Aircross and New C5 X Plug-in Hybrid models, each with an electric range of up to 34 miles perfectly suited for the majority of daily journeys. Our award-winning van range now offers the choice of electric across each model, including the newly introduced ë-Berlingo Van electric. Each electric van offers minimal compromise with identical load volumes to their petrol and diesel counterparts. That's why we like to say we have every kind of electric for all kinds of people - POWER TO THE PEOPLE."
SEAT
SEAT S.A and the Volkswagen Group are planning to invest more than €7 billion to electrify Spain.
This would be the single largest industrial investment in the country’s history.
It is called the ‘Future: Fast Forward’ programme and would include the installation of a new battery cell factory in Sagunto, Valencia, which will employ more than 3,000 people.
The two companies intend to formally submit an application to the PERTE programme so this is still subject to final approval.
The German automaker is aiming for an annual production capacity of 40GWh to begin in 2026. Construction of the new plant must therefore start by the end of this year.
President of SEAT S.A, Wayne Griffiths, said: “Future: Fast Forward has the potential to transform the Spanish automotive industry and democratise electric mobility across Europe.”
Volvo
"Volvo Cars is taking a bold lead with electrification in the auto industry. As the first major premium car brand to commit to a hybrid or full-electric powertrain for all our models, we aim to drive the automotive sector forward, improve the quality of the air in our cities and increase our success as a business. Every new Volvo car launched from 2019 onwards will have an electric motor. This ambitious commitment shows that at Volvo Cars we dare to take the lead and embrace a cleaner mobility. It underlines our aim to reduce the environmental impact of our products, and to improve air quality in our cities. Most of all, it shows that we listen to our customers and their needs."
SKODA
By 2030, we want to be one of the top five best-selling brands in Europe,” the ŠKODA CEO outlines the company’s ambitious plan. This is to be achieved by offering affordable models, such as the new ŠKODA FABIA, while expanding the range of electrified cars. “We will add at least three more fully electric models to our portfolio by 2030. Depending on how markets develop, our target is for fully electric ŠKODA models to account for roughly 50 to 70 per cent of sales in Europe for 2030,” Schäfer said. By fostering the development and production of electric vehicles and their components in the Czech Republic, the Czech carmaker will help the traditionally industrial country become an electromobility hub. According to Schäfer, electric cars or their components are to be manufactured at all ŠKODA plants in the Czech Republic.
ALFA ROMEO
Global automaker conglomerate Stellantis has begun its pivot to electrification for all 14 of its brands, and today it announced that Alfa Romeo will be the first of them to ditch the internal combustion engine. The launch of the new 2023 Alfa Romeo Tonale plug-in hybrid represents the first electrified model in what will be a 100-percent electric lineup by 2027.
It'll be followed by a "fully locked and funded product plan," Imparato told us, consisting of one new vehicle launch or big reveal per year by 2030. Following the all-electric Quadrifoglio in 2025, the company says that every new Alfa Romeo launched will be a fully electric vehicle. By 2027, the last internal combustion engine-powered Alfa Romeo will leave the lineup, making Alfa's EV-exclusive lineup the first (but not last) of Stellantis' 14 brands to be fully electrified.
FIAT
We can now provide all our customers with a sustainable mobility solution, whatever their mobility needs, with simple technology and at an affordable cost. I am extremely proud of this for its consistency with our vision: ‘It’s only green when it’s green for all’.
And there’s more. Our journey toward sustainable mobility for all continues, with the aim to launch a new vehicle every year, starting as soon as in 2023. Each model will have an electric motor, to achieve a fully electric line-up from 2027.
TVR
The brand’s new models will include an all-electric version of the new Griffith sports car, which will follow the V8 version into production in 2024. Following that, TVR intends to reveal two new cars. These are likely to be an all-electric saloon and an SUV if some teaser images of the new models are anything to go by. There’s also a sleek, electric sports car with a similar shape to the iconic Sagaris in the trio of teaser sketches, pointing to a bespoke electric sports car.
DriveSnowdonia said:
Funny you should say that. My better half has just become a qualified nutritionist and it seems apparent that a lot has changed in the last few years as the impact of refined carbs, and the influence of the gut microbiome, and its influence over a whole host of health issues becomes better understood.
The current NHS eatwell guide is thoroughly out of date in this regard. https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/eat-well/food-guideli...
But as ever it takes time for these things, so institutionally entrenched to change to adapt to the current trajectory of science. You only have to look at the impacts of a refined carb-heavy diet, as still promoted by the NHS eatwell plate on the populations of the western world. Cue rising obesity and a whole host of other related health conditions.
Still, we must be quacks and charlatans for pointing this stuff out, despite the fact that much of the latest (independent) scientific research supports this.
Irrespective of the push back against (esp refined) carbs which I agree with, consumption rates of red meat are still associated with a increased risk of bowel cancer. Your wife, if she is qualified, will tell you that I’m sure. Every nutritionist should be aware of that link.The current NHS eatwell guide is thoroughly out of date in this regard. https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/eat-well/food-guideli...
But as ever it takes time for these things, so institutionally entrenched to change to adapt to the current trajectory of science. You only have to look at the impacts of a refined carb-heavy diet, as still promoted by the NHS eatwell plate on the populations of the western world. Cue rising obesity and a whole host of other related health conditions.
Still, we must be quacks and charlatans for pointing this stuff out, despite the fact that much of the latest (independent) scientific research supports this.
DriveSnowdonia said:
ATG said:
Go talk to a properly qualified nutritionist, a little difficult to find amongst the quacks, charlatans, and well-intentioned hippies, but they are out there. And then come back when you have the vaguest clue what you're talking about.
Funny you should say that. My better half has just become a qualified nutritionist and it seems apparent that a lot has changed in the last few years as the impact of refined carbs, and the influence of the gut microbiome, and its influence over a whole host of health issues becomes better understood. The current NHS eatwell guide is thoroughly out of date in this regard. https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/eat-well/food-guideli...
But as ever it takes time for these things, so institutionally entrenched to change to adapt to the current trajectory of science. You only have to look at the impacts of a refined carb-heavy diet, as still promoted by the NHS eatwell plate on the populations of the western world. Cue rising obesity and a whole host of other related health conditions.
Still, we must be quacks and charlatans for pointing this stuff out, despite the fact that much of the latest (independent) scientific research supports this.
https://www.ft.com/content/fc30e68a-afb1-49f8-8560...
Ahhhhh, that’s better. Confirmed not for the UK
Ahhhhh, that’s better. Confirmed not for the UK
Edited by D4rez on Thursday 30th March 11:24
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