RE: GMA T.33 Spider previewed ahead of unveiling
Discussion
pbe624 said:
GeeTeeBee said:
...., but £100-150k car with a nice NA engine, less exotic construction, maybe 350-400hp and 1,200kg in a usable package would be interesting. t
Lotus Emira ?HighwayStar said:
pbe624 said:
GeeTeeBee said:
...., but £100-150k car with a nice NA engine, less exotic construction, maybe 350-400hp and 1,200kg in a usable package would be interesting. t
Lotus Emira ?Sporky said:
Let's see him do a £50k sports car.
Ah, yes the oft mentioned mythical £50k sports car that all manufacturers should be producing.vincegail said:
Sporky said:
Let's see him do a £50k sports car.
Ah, yes the oft mentioned mythical £50k sports car that all manufacturers should be producing.TX.
Sporky said:
I was wooried that Gordon Murray hadn't done a press release about Gordon Murray for a while.
Let's see him do a £50k sports car.
Quite a few people seem to effectively criticise GM for not doing a mass market sports car, but i never see the same point directed towards Pagani or Koenigsegg etc... Let's see him do a £50k sports car.
I love GM's ethos and love his cars. If i was stinking rich, i'd have an F1, T50 and T33 - all stunning in my eyes. Personally, i have zero interest in the over-designed, over-weight cars with every aerodynamic appendage possible that seem to permeate the modern world - i know i'm probably in the minority though. If the T50 has a fan on the back to create a virtual long-tail that means it doesn't need to cover its body with aerodynamic scoops, panels and spoilers - thats ok with me.
I'll wait until Tuesday to pass comment on the T33 Spider - difficult to base an opinion on a single drawing.
I have an Elise S2. Lotus obviously don't produce them anymore, but you'd be hardpressed to find a better car for under £50,000 that has a similar ethos to that of GM - who himself holds Colin Chapman in such high regard; GM owning an original Elan which he describes as having the best steering of any car he's ever driven.
For a new sports car under £50,000 the hand-built Wells Vertige looks close to the GM ethos.
Phobos50 said:
Sporky said:
I was wooried that Gordon Murray hadn't done a press release about Gordon Murray for a while.
Let's see him do a £50k sports car.
Quite a few people seem to effectively criticise GM for not doing a mass market sports car, but i never see the same point directed towards Pagani or Koenigsegg etc... Let's see him do a £50k sports car.
I love GM's ethos and love his cars. If i was stinking rich, i'd have an F1, T50 and T33 - all stunning in my eyes. Personally, i have zero interest in the over-designed, over-weight cars with every aerodynamic appendage possible that seem to permeate the modern world - i know i'm probably in the minority though. If the T50 has a fan on the back to create a virtual long-tail that means it doesn't need to cover its body with aerodynamic scoops, panels and spoilers - thats ok with me.
I'll wait until Tuesday to pass comment on the T33 Spider - difficult to base an opinion on a single drawing.
I have an Elise S2. Lotus obviously don't produce them anymore, but you'd be hardpressed to find a better car for under £50,000 that has a similar ethos to that of GM - who himself holds Colin Chapman in such high regard; GM owning an original Elan which he describes as having the best steering of any car he's ever driven.
For a new sports car under £50,000 the hand-built Wells Vertige looks close to the GM ethos.
For me, it's not about making the mass market car - it's about the massive difference between the cars GM lauds as the finest road cars and the ones he makes.
That is to say that not only are they very lightweight, with great steering feel and compliant suspension - but they also have engines which you can actually use.
Check out the 'final sign off' vid, where he and Franchitti point out you can only really use a few mm of throttle travel.
Take that incredible v12 and chop it in half - and reduce weight even more - and suddenly you truly do have something purely designed for the road with a properly usable drive train as well as all the stunning details/centre driving position/etc.
No, it wouldn't be 'mass market' - but I bet he'd still sell every one and there would be an even clearer distinction between GM and everyone else...
Sway said:
Take that incredible v12 and chop it in half - and reduce weight even more - and suddenly you truly do have something purely designed for the road with a properly usable drive train as well as all the stunning details/centre driving position/etc.
No, it wouldn't be 'mass market' - but I bet he'd still sell every one and there would be an even clearer distinction between GM and everyone else...
So, a six pot and slightly lighter GM car compared to the T.33 or T.50?No, it wouldn't be 'mass market' - but I bet he'd still sell every one and there would be an even clearer distinction between GM and everyone else...
I wouldn't imagine it would be a whole less expensive than a T.33. If that's the case it still would be a million pound car and most would pay the extra for the V12 T.33. Well, in ideal world I certainly would. But, alas I'll dream on as usual.
Sway said:
Phobos50 said:
Sporky said:
I was wooried that Gordon Murray hadn't done a press release about Gordon Murray for a while.
Let's see him do a £50k sports car.
Quite a few people seem to effectively criticise GM for not doing a mass market sports car, but i never see the same point directed towards Pagani or Koenigsegg etc... Let's see him do a £50k sports car.
I love GM's ethos and love his cars. If i was stinking rich, i'd have an F1, T50 and T33 - all stunning in my eyes. Personally, i have zero interest in the over-designed, over-weight cars with every aerodynamic appendage possible that seem to permeate the modern world - i know i'm probably in the minority though. If the T50 has a fan on the back to create a virtual long-tail that means it doesn't need to cover its body with aerodynamic scoops, panels and spoilers - thats ok with me.
I'll wait until Tuesday to pass comment on the T33 Spider - difficult to base an opinion on a single drawing.
I have an Elise S2. Lotus obviously don't produce them anymore, but you'd be hardpressed to find a better car for under £50,000 that has a similar ethos to that of GM - who himself holds Colin Chapman in such high regard; GM owning an original Elan which he describes as having the best steering of any car he's ever driven.
For a new sports car under £50,000 the hand-built Wells Vertige looks close to the GM ethos.
For me, it's not about making the mass market car - it's about the massive difference between the cars GM lauds as the finest road cars and the ones he makes.
That is to say that not only are they very lightweight, with great steering feel and compliant suspension - but they also have engines which you can actually use.
Check out the 'final sign off' vid, where he and Franchitti point out you can only really use a few mm of throttle travel.
Take that incredible v12 and chop it in half - and reduce weight even more - and suddenly you truly do have something purely designed for the road with a properly usable drive train as well as all the stunning details/centre driving position/etc.
No, it wouldn't be 'mass market' - but I bet he'd still sell every one and there would be an even clearer distinction between GM and everyone else...
I would love to see a 'cheaper' V6 GM car, but i think it would still be prohibitively expensive. Yes - not 'mass-market', but still with engine development costs, still handbuilt and still with GM's total attention to detail, i would think it would still cost way, way upwards of £500,000 (and probably nearer the £1 million mark)- i'm sure GM would easily sell 100 of them - i would definitely buy one, if it wasn't for the fact that i don't even remotely have the necessary funds.
I think as well this lightweight V6 would still appeal only within its own niche market, as, other people have said, lightweight and compact doesn't seem to have wide appeal at the moment. The new Lamborghini thing unveiled the other day, i'm sure would appeal to more people - personally i think looks hideous (in spite of its V12) and I yearn for a Lamborghini that has the smooth, compact lines of the Countach LP400, but as i said earlier, i guess i'm in a minority.
Edited by Phobos50 on Saturday 1st April 17:30
Phobos50 said:
...For a new sports car under £50,000 the hand-built Wells Vertige looks close to the GM ethos.
That Wells Vertige had flown completely under my radar. What a lovely thing it is, and I wish them well.GMA T.33 Spider - It will undoubtedly be a wonderful machine. To my eyes the lines of the T.33 are sweeter than the T.50, but I like them both.
Phobos50 said:
I've watched all the videos, have loved the F1 ever since i first saw it 31 years ago and follow everything GM does - whilst a V6 sounds great, GM is 76 years old and i can see why he's concentrating his cars only on this stunning Cosworth V12 and keeping production of each iteration at a maximum of around 100 cars, especially as we are in the twilight years of the ICE. He seems to really enjoy personal interaction with buyers as well - something more easily achievable within a limited run and a niche, high value market.
I would love to see a 'cheaper' V6 GM car, but i think it would still be prohibitively expensive. Yes - not 'mass-market', but still with engine development costs, still handbuilt and still with GM's total attention to detail, i would think it would still cost way, way upwards of £500,000 (and probably nearer the £1 million mark)- i'm sure GM would easily sell 100 of them - i would definitely buy one, if it wasn't for the fact that i don't even remotely have the necessary funds.
I think as well this lightweight V6 would still appeal only within its own niche market, as, other people have said, lightweight and compact doesn't seem to have wide appeal at the moment. The new Lamborghini thing unveiled the other day, i'm sure would appeal to more people - personally i think looks hideous (in spite of its V12) and I yearn for a Lamborghini that has the smooth, compact lines of the Countach LP400, but as i said earlier, i guess i'm in a minority.
The point for me is that the v6 would actually be closer to the ethos he bangs on about...I would love to see a 'cheaper' V6 GM car, but i think it would still be prohibitively expensive. Yes - not 'mass-market', but still with engine development costs, still handbuilt and still with GM's total attention to detail, i would think it would still cost way, way upwards of £500,000 (and probably nearer the £1 million mark)- i'm sure GM would easily sell 100 of them - i would definitely buy one, if it wasn't for the fact that i don't even remotely have the necessary funds.
I think as well this lightweight V6 would still appeal only within its own niche market, as, other people have said, lightweight and compact doesn't seem to have wide appeal at the moment. The new Lamborghini thing unveiled the other day, i'm sure would appeal to more people - personally i think looks hideous (in spite of its V12) and I yearn for a Lamborghini that has the smooth, compact lines of the Countach LP400, but as i said earlier, i guess i'm in a minority.
Edited by Phobos50 on Saturday 1st April 17:30
Lightweight and compact he already does. The only difference is that the throttle could actually be used on road...
Phobos50 said:
Quite a few people seem to effectively criticise GM for not doing a mass market sports car, but i never see the same point directed towards Pagani or Koenigsegg etc...
That's because those brands feel like that are essentially making trinkets for status seekers, for the most part, the cars / brands don't have the same purist appeal as GM does. I'm interested in what GM does, barely interested at all in Koenigsegg, largely the same for Pagani.GeeTeeBee said:
That's because those brands feel like that are essentially making trinkets for status seekers, for the most part, the cars / brands don't have the same purist appeal as GM does. I'm interested in what GM does, barely interested at all in Koenigsegg, largely the same for Pagani.
I think that's a bit unfair regarding Koenigsegg. When see a company it's size developing Freevalve and dual manual/automatic gearboxes, it's far from just making trinkets. There is expectations from GM about producing a far lower cost sports car due to his history of designing such vehicles like the Rocket, the light utility vehicle (can't recall it's name) plus one or two others along with his iStream system. Can't see it happening myself.
GeeTeeBee said:
PerformanteNonGrata said:
Ah, yes the oft mentioned mythical £50k sports car that all manufacturers should be producing.
They exist, so clearly not impossible. And many more people would have the chance of buying one. They're making 100 of these T.33 Spiders assuming the company thrives. So, basically none to all intents and purposes. Once the majority have gone into collections only to notch up a few hundred miles a year crawling back and forth between show-off events, you'll be left with about seven that get driven a bit and one or two that get driven a lot and are popularly appealed to as "proof" that these cars get used plenty.£50k might be a bit of a stretch these days, but £100-150k car with a nice NA engine, less exotic construction, maybe 350-400hp and 1,200kg in a usable package would be interesting. Something like a McLaren 570S but with the turbos removed, a manual box and maybe a bit smaller all round and yet still with more luggage space. That feels quite Murray to me. Not perfectly Murray, as heavier than he'd like. But Murray with a bit of reality injected.
It's probably a business case thing as you'd likely need Porsche style volumes of 10k units annually plus to have the thing make decent money. Probably not a goer. But if the point of making a sports car is to do with an actual driving experience, well, having people actually experience that seems somewhat critical, I'd have thought.
Problem with the Murray cars is that they're so low volume and so exotic and expensive, they'll have virtually zero impact on actual driving, as the sum total of driving they'll accrue will be basically nowt
E90_M3Ross said:
There is likely a reason this car doesn't really exist.
Surely there are enough designers and engineers in the PistonHeads family to easily create a world-beating, sub 1000kg, N/A V6-powered, manual, built in Britain, £50k sports car. Just think how many " B road blasters " will buy one.
It's a sure fire winner ... you can thank me later.
Nish Gnackers said:
E90_M3Ross said:
There is likely a reason this car doesn't really exist.
Surely there are enough designers and engineers in the PistonHeads family to easily create a world-beating, sub 1000kg, N/A V6-powered, manual, built in Britain, £50k sports car. Just think how many " B road blasters " will buy one.
It's a sure fire winner ... you can thank me later.
GeeTeeBee said:
PerformanteNonGrata said:
Ah, yes the oft mentioned mythical £50k sports car that all manufacturers should be producing.
Problem with the Murray cars is that they're so low volume and so exotic and expensive, they'll have virtually zero impact on actual driving, as the sum total of driving they'll accrue will be basically nowtJJJ. said:
I think that's a bit unfair regarding Koenigsegg. When see a company it's size developing Freevalve and dual manual/automatic gearboxes, it's far from just making trinkets.
There is expectations from GM about producing a far lower cost sports car due to his history of designing such vehicles like the Rocket, the light utility vehicle (can't recall it's name) plus one or two others along with his iStream system. Can't see it happening myself.
They certainly do some interesting engineering, Koenigsegg. But the cars are, for me, trinkets, they're not cars they say to me, "this thing is about driving".There is expectations from GM about producing a far lower cost sports car due to his history of designing such vehicles like the Rocket, the light utility vehicle (can't recall it's name) plus one or two others along with his iStream system. Can't see it happening myself.
GeeTeeBee said:
JJJ. said:
I think that's a bit unfair regarding Koenigsegg. When you see a company it's size developing Freevalve and dual manual/automatic gearboxes, it's far from just making trinkets.
There is expectations from GM about producing a far lower cost sports car due to his history of designing such vehicles like the Rocket, the light utility vehicle (can't recall it's name) plus one or two others along with his iStream system. Can't see it happening myself.
They certainly do some interesting engineering, Koenigsegg. But the cars are, for me, trinkets, they're not cars they say to me, "this thing is about driving".There is expectations from GM about producing a far lower cost sports car due to his history of designing such vehicles like the Rocket, the light utility vehicle (can't recall it's name) plus one or two others along with his iStream system. Can't see it happening myself.
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