RE: All-new Toyota Land Cruiser launched

[DonkeyApple]

LimaDelta said:

Exactly, it is already near-perfect for what it does. There aren't many ways to really improve it without compromising it's authenticity. I know people keep banging on about the engine, but if you want a faster, more road-focussed large SUV there are plenty of other big-engined options out there. 200bhp in such a large car is never going to feel fast, but honestly as someone who owns the current model with the 2.8, it is quick enough. More power means more compromises, and more road tuned handling, bigger brakes, wheels etc. which all move it away from it's intended use.

The reviews are all honest enough - unless you actually need the off-road dependability, then most people will be better off with an X5, XC90, Disco 5, etc. Coming from that sort of SUV, the LC will feel very agricultural and a bit unrefined.

I imagine Toyota will be doing a lot of test-drives for new to brand customers, but I'm not sure how many of those will translate into sales.

Personally, the engine issue isn't about power per se. It's more about quality and legislation.

Firstly, for £70k+ a Poundland 4 pot diesel is absolutely sitting on the wrong side of the line. Arguably a non issue in developing nations but this perspective is purely based on use in the U.K. and consumer expectations of a 21st century developed nation. The simple fact is that for parting with that amount of cash you do expect a drivetrain that is bit smoother and more civilised. There's no escaping that the 4 pot diesel is is just about the lowest of the low which is why it is has been a mainstay of the cheapest cars and cheapest models.

Secondly, the U.K. is a small island but one which is very broadly developed where avoiding towns and cities is particularly unusual and many of these conurbations are already operating anti-diesel stances and it seems logical to believe that this is not likely to change and is only going to become worse and worse.

In 2024 if one is considering buying a new car to turn into a shed oneself then we have to try our best to guess what we are going to be banned from doing in ten years time and more. With cities already overtly discriminating against not just diesel powered cars by charging them more and not letting them park in certain places and also towns beginning to discriminate against ICe in general I would say that unlike sports cars where you can say 'screw it' to towns and cities and use a different car for that journey the LandCruiser is that different car. It's the car that sits on the drive for 20 years and does all the donkey work which means it does the trudge into town as well as dragging objects across fields. It's the utility car that does everything forever. But not with that 4 pot smoker in it.

To tick developed nation boxes, especially the U.K. it really needs to be petrol hybrid and where the plug in battery is large enough to get you around town and out. And the bizarre thing is that Toyota are quite competent at the hybrid stuff. They might have struggled for years to solve the problem of how to charge up a battery without using a generator but in recent years someone has clearly explained to them the whole 'plug' thing and how you can use it to run a cable from a car to a socket.

I like these. I don't need a V8 in one, the petrol V6 would be ok but probably still too thirsty in the U.K. for the average taste. But while the 4 pot diesel is perfect for the third world, I do think this car is rendered pointless in the U.K. without a petrol hybrid drivetrain. Utility doesn't just mean being able to go off into the countryside but also being able to go into town. Utility in developed nations means also regulatory utility. A diesel 4 pot fails as a utility product already and it's only going to get worse and worse.

[TGCOTF-dewey]

Poundland diesel?...I value the fact mine has never, and will likely never miss a beat.

Unlike the 'fortnum and mason' engines and drivetrains sat in LR products.

But you're obviously not the target market, and there is the similar new gx lexus for you, with the also very reliable V6 hybrid. My wife has an RX450 (similar system) which has also never missed a beat.

[DonkeyApple]

TGCOTF-dewey said:

Poundland diesel?...I value the fact mine has never, and will likely never miss a beat.

Unlike the 'fortnum and mason' engines and drivetrains sat in LR products.

But you're obviously not the target market, and there is the similar new gx lexus for you, with the also very reliable V6 hybrid. My wife has an RX450 (similar system) which has also never missed a beat.

Keep yer wig on.

[swisstoni]

TGCOTF-dewey said:

Poundland diesel?...I value the fact mine has never, and will likely never miss a beat.

Unlike the 'fortnum and mason' engines and drivetrains sat in LR products.

But you're obviously not the target market, and there is the similar new gx lexus for you, with the also very reliable V6 hybrid. My wife has an RX450 (similar system) which has also never missed a beat.

I enjoyed the bolded comment.

Yes, I’m pretty sure my 13y/o RX450h is going to outlive me.

[Snow and Rocks]

TGCOTF-dewey said:

Poundland diesel?...I value the fact mine has never, and will likely never miss a beat.

Unlike the 'fortnum and mason' engines and drivetrains sat in LR products.

But you're obviously not the target market, and there is the similar new gx lexus for you, with the also very reliable V6 hybrid. My wife has an RX450 (similar system) which has also never missed a beat.

Quite - the target market is still very clearly wedded to diesel and the 2.8 is pretty much exactly what a good utility diesel should be. Powerful enough with plenty of torque, as uncomplicated as it can be 2024, economical for what it is and, above all, reliable.

A quick look at LR Defender numbers listed on auto trader tells you all you need to know and that's despite the LRs generally having a more urban/lifestyle ownership profile and that the diesels have a fairly disastrous reliability record.

[NomduJour]

That’s because they sell about twenty Land Cruisers a year here - the only people who want one are the itinerant tinkers (but only when they’re fifteen years old) and off-grid 4x4 bear wrestlers who actually only want to tell people they’ll never meet on the internet how reliable they are when they travel into the Outback (also known as “Corby”).

[DeejRC]

I’m not sure DA has ever been east of the M1 or north of the A43 !

[DonkeyApple]

Snow and Rocks said:

Quite - the target market is still very clearly wedded to diesel and the 2.8 is pretty much exactly what a good utility diesel should be. Powerful enough with plenty of torque, as uncomplicated as it can be 2024, economical for what it is and, above all, reliable.

A quick look at LR Defender numbers listed on auto trader tells you all you need to know and that's despite the LRs generally having a more urban/lifestyle ownership profile and that the diesels have a fairly disastrous reliability record.

The global target market will be and even legacy and current U.K. users will be and can be. The post wasn't about overseas or the U.K. today but specifically taking into consideration the U.K. of tomorrow.

For example, both Aberdeen and Glasgow now have ULEZ systems in place, as do many English cities. The criteria of these is not to remain static but to be ratcheted over time to tax and exclude more vehicles which are not pure EV, starting with the most polluting diesels as already seen and the next step isn't going to bypass big 4x4s with currently compliant diesel engines.

The concept of 'utility' is different for each market place and in the U.K. a true utility vehicle needs to be able to operate in both town and country and to be used for as many niche scenarios as possible. A vehicle 100% focussed on, say, just off-roading is not technically a utility vehicle in a developed market but a specialist niche vehicle with very little actual utility. A true utility vehicle is a vehicle that can not just Von Trapp the countryside but be allowed to do the school run, tip run, shop run, town run, go to market, cut through towns when A to B'ing. utility is freedom of use in as many use cases as possible and in a developed nation that must mean being future proofed against legislation as best as possible over the intended lifespan of the vehicle.

Ergo, precisely why I prefixed the original post with the caveat re if intending to hold the vehicle for a significant number of years and why the other poster pulling an Ian Bone was a bit daft.

[DonkeyApple]

DeejRC said:

I’m not sure DA has ever been east of the M1 or north of the A43 !

Not usually without a pair of guns and an old body on ladder clunker to handle the wild, unpaved ground, it must be said.

[DonkeyApple]

NomduJour said:

That’s because they sell about twenty Land Cruisers a year here - the only people who want one are the itinerant tinkers (but only when they’re fifteen years old) and off-grid 4x4 bear wrestlers who actually only want to tell people they’ll never meet on the internet how reliable they are when they travel into the Outback (also known as “Corby”).

The resident PH LC fan club President doesn't do the marque any huge favours: https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

But the latest LC looks fun and a genuine D4 alternative but if next year's hybrid has a reasonable electric range, can be plugged in and has a petrol engine then that's the one to go for especially as Toyota systems are generally extremely good. Will get even more interesting if they start rolling out solid state batteries as planned for their hybrids.

[TGCOTF-dewey]

So just buy the Lexus if you're worried about ULEZ

Or wait for the 2.4l turbo hybrid, which will also likely be ULEZ compliant too.

Or pay the charge for the odd time you may need to visit a city.

You're describing a problem where there isn't one for the very small number of UK LC buyers.

Can't remember the last time I saw an LC in a city... There are at least 5 in our village.

[NomduJour]

Given ULEZ requires Euro 6, and all new U.K. petrol and diesel cars are Euro 6, it’s more about what’s going to happen when the rules tighten.

[Roger Irrelevant]

I'll be perfectly happy buying a diesel Land Cruiser - I'll very rarely need to drive it anywhere that's ever likely to have a ULEZ and I only pay for parking about 3 times a year anyway, so I reckon it'll cover the bases I need covering without plunging me into penury. A risk I'm happy to take. Yes I'd rather it was a 6-pot but if a 4-pot is what it comes with then a 4-pot I shall have.

[NomduJour]

Agree that diesel is still the obvious choice for anything like this. Doesn’t mean those making the rules agree.

[Snow and Rocks]

Aberdeen is actually the closest LEZ to us, it only affects the very city centre which is mostly pedestrianised anyway so not really a big deal for me and my twice annual visit by car but I see your point for more urban based users in bigger cities. My ventures into bigger cities like Edinburgh or London are almost always for pleasure so more than happy to have a few drinks on the train.

Interestingly, my ancient straight six 4.2TD 80 series is apparently fully compliant with all the LEZ zones so maybe I should have held onto it!

I like Toyota hybrids and really rate their cleverly engineered inherent simplicity but a Land Cruiser (or Hilux) really still need to be diesel for me.

[DMG34]

TGCOTF-dewey said:

So just buy the Lexus if you're worried about ULEZ

Or wait for the 2.4l turbo hybrid, which will also likely be ULEZ compliant too.

Or pay the charge for the odd time you may need to visit a city.

You're describing a problem where there isn't one for the very small number of UK LC buyers.

Can't remember the last time I saw an LC in a city... There are at least 5 in our village.

Is the Lexus GX going on sale in the UK?

[DonkeyApple]

Snow and Rocks said:

Aberdeen is actually the closest LEZ to us, it only affects the very city centre which is mostly pedestrianised anyway so not really a big deal for me and my twice annual visit by car but I see your point for more urban based users in bigger cities. My ventures into bigger cities like Edinburgh or London are almost always for pleasure so more than happy to have a few drinks on the train.

Interestingly, my ancient straight six 4.2TD 80 series is apparently fully compliant with all the LEZ zones so maybe I should have held onto it!

I like Toyota hybrids and really rate their cleverly engineered inherent simplicity but a Land Cruiser (or Hilux) really still need to be diesel for me.

Diesel is the most logical fuel in a sane world for this sort of vehicle, that's for sure, it's just that the U.K. isn't all that sane. Aberdeen has mission creep already for their LEZ. Where I am I have the London one, Birmingham and both those extend pretty far already. Oxford has one and is already wanting to expand it, Cheltenham wants to have one. Bristol has one. Every town/city seems to want in on the free money ride. There are even talks re adding them to motorway sections. And across the Channel more are being added. Once they're in and can't expand geographically the eligibility criteria will be changed to capture more and more vehicles. Something big, heavy and diesel in private hands isn't going to escape. If rolling on a new vehicle every few years then this isn't something to give much thought to but if looking to buy something to use for 10+ years and an LC is precisely one of those automotive cockroaches that people tend to just keep then I think it would be smarter to wait to see what the hybrid model offers.

[TGCOTF-dewey]

DMG34 said:

Is the Lexus GX going on sale in the UK?

When I asked my dealer the response was Toyota hadn't decided yet.

It is going on sale in Europe this year and there is obviously a RHD model.

I guess it depends on demand - ie people would prefer a TT V6 hybrid over a pound land diesel.

[DonkeyApple]

TGCOTF-dewey said:

When I asked my dealer the response was Toyota hadn't decided yet.

It is going on sale in Europe this year and there is obviously a RHD model.

I guess it depends on demand - ie people would prefer a TT V6 hybrid over a pound land diesel.

It's not a matter of preference, that is obviously a given, it's an affordability matter.

Half an engine and using truck fuel fits the old budget better.

[Roger Irrelevant]

DonkeyApple said:

if looking to buy something to use for 10+ years and an LC is precisely one of those automotive cockroaches that people tend to just keep then I think it would be smarter to wait to see what the hybrid model offers.

Trouble is (and I might have missed some news and end up looking look daft here), the hybrid model that Toyota have announced for the UK is only a mild hybrid diesel. I.e. not really a hybrid at all. The US gets the 2.4 petrol proper hybrid, and if that was coming to the UK then I probably would get that as I really do like Toyota's hybrid tech, but so far as I'm aware it isn't. So diesel it'll be.