RE: Blistering new 0-62mph record dips under a second
Discussion
mat205125 said:
Red 5 said:
ManyMotors said:
A top fueler hits 60 in 0.4, 100 in 0.9 and 300 in less than 4.0. But you can't run it in your driveway.
How long will it take for electric drag cars to beat those numbers?Past the direct drive launch advantage that EVs have, the challenge becomes the conversion of stored energy into kinetic energy at the tarmac ..... Nitro vs L-ion is still a war that I think belongs to the chemicals and combustion.
DodgyGeezer said:
mat205125 said:
Red 5 said:
ManyMotors said:
A top fueler hits 60 in 0.4, 100 in 0.9 and 300 in less than 4.0. But you can't run it in your driveway.
How long will it take for electric drag cars to beat those numbers?Past the direct drive launch advantage that EVs have, the challenge becomes the conversion of stored energy into kinetic energy at the tarmac ..... Nitro vs L-ion is still a war that I think belongs to the chemicals and combustion.
Interesting steam powered drag bike too!! Fastest kettle i have ever seen!!
Krikkit said:
normalbloke said:
Red 5 said:
ManyMotors said:
A top fueler hits 60 in 0.4, 100 in 0.9 and 300 in less than 4.0. But you can't run it in your driveway.
How long will it take for electric drag cars to beat those numbers?http://www.slamminsammymiller.com/
coded2112 said:
DodgyGeezer said:
mat205125 said:
Red 5 said:
ManyMotors said:
A top fueler hits 60 in 0.4, 100 in 0.9 and 300 in less than 4.0. But you can't run it in your driveway.
How long will it take for electric drag cars to beat those numbers?Past the direct drive launch advantage that EVs have, the challenge becomes the conversion of stored energy into kinetic energy at the tarmac ..... Nitro vs L-ion is still a war that I think belongs to the chemicals and combustion.
Interesting steam powered drag bike too!! Fastest kettle i have ever seen!!
I started watching some rally cross a while back, with the EV fireball cars, and whilst the action was good, the complete lack of the antilag and noise made it unwatchable.
Feel blessed to have grown up with "full fat" vehicles, and frankly find stats chasing both impressive and boring in equal measure.
Red 5 said:
ManyMotors said:
A top fueler hits 60 in 0.4, 100 in 0.9 and 300 in less than 4.0. But you can't run it in your driveway.
How long will it take for electric drag cars to beat those numbers?mat205125 said:
100% ..... the full motorsport experience of any formula is a multisensory and visceral experience.
I started watching some rally cross a while back, with the EV fireball cars, and whilst the action was good, the complete lack of the antilag and noise made it unwatchable.
Feel blessed to have grown up with "full fat" vehicles, and frankly find stats chasing both impressive and boring in equal measure.
its like watching metalica with the amps turned off I started watching some rally cross a while back, with the EV fireball cars, and whilst the action was good, the complete lack of the antilag and noise made it unwatchable.
Feel blessed to have grown up with "full fat" vehicles, and frankly find stats chasing both impressive and boring in equal measure.
PHZero said:
E63eeeeee... said:
PHZero said:
pycraft said:
0-60 in under a second; range 12 metres. It's the ultimate EV. 
It's possible that a male driver may have managed to get a quicker time. Perhaps not though.
coded2112 said:
DodgyGeezer said:
mat205125 said:
Red 5 said:
ManyMotors said:
A top fueler hits 60 in 0.4, 100 in 0.9 and 300 in less than 4.0. But you can't run it in your driveway.
How long will it take for electric drag cars to beat those numbers?Past the direct drive launch advantage that EVs have, the challenge becomes the conversion of stored energy into kinetic energy at the tarmac ..... Nitro vs L-ion is still a war that I think belongs to the chemicals and combustion.
Let's do maths for a balls to the wall electric dragster.
You can get 60C LiPo batteries for drones. Let's assume we have 1000kg of them, the rest of the vehicle being 1000kg.
If the rated capacity is 175wh/kg so that is a max power of 10.5MW, let's make the drive train quite inefficient due to heat build-up so 8MW at the back wheel.
Let's assume that the peak acceleration of a top fuel dragster of 5.6gs is a limit for traction. I have an existing time step acceleration model in excel with a power curve for a Model 3 motor in it. I have put some sensible drag factors from an F1 car in it (though drag makes very little difference)
We have geared the dragster max power at about 175mph at which point power stays flat for a bit before tailing off.
Results
0-60 - 0.47s
0-100 - 0.79s
0-200 - 1.68s
0-300 - 3.4s
100m - 1.92s 219mph
200m - 2.82s 274mph
300m - 3.56s 307mph
400m - 4.30s 328mph
1000m - 8.01s 347mph
1609m - 11.54s 393.65mph
So our pretend car can beat the record Top Fuel times, this assumes that electric traction doesn't allow us to do even better on traction.
Is this car feasible?
The battery looks quite feasible especially given we aren't challenging energy density in a drag race. It's also a relatively big item to drop heat into for 5 seconds.
The motor is more of a challenge, the best motors are about 10kw/kg. This would mean we need an 800kg motor, however those rating are for minutes of operation if not hours depending on application. If we need 5 seconds between overhauls we might be able to push much higher currents through them.
As a scoping calc let's assume that we will dump 2MW into the motor. We have cooled it with dry ice to -80C and it stops working at 200C. Copper needs 3850j/kg to raise it 1 Kelvin so for our 5 second run we only need ~10kg of copper to absorb that heat.
In reality we will need a motor with a lot more than 10kg in the windings but it is indicative that if we only need the motor to last 5 seconds then we could probably hit the 40kw/kg that an existing dragster engine manages.
The area where I can't even make some scoping calcs would be in the power electronics. I have no idea what their life Vs overload capability is or whether for this extreme application we could even use something retro like valves or a commutator.
Why hasn't someone done this, massive cost and the fact that research and development here has little practical use on any other application.
You can get 60C LiPo batteries for drones. Let's assume we have 1000kg of them, the rest of the vehicle being 1000kg.
If the rated capacity is 175wh/kg so that is a max power of 10.5MW, let's make the drive train quite inefficient due to heat build-up so 8MW at the back wheel.
Let's assume that the peak acceleration of a top fuel dragster of 5.6gs is a limit for traction. I have an existing time step acceleration model in excel with a power curve for a Model 3 motor in it. I have put some sensible drag factors from an F1 car in it (though drag makes very little difference)
We have geared the dragster max power at about 175mph at which point power stays flat for a bit before tailing off.
Results
0-60 - 0.47s
0-100 - 0.79s
0-200 - 1.68s
0-300 - 3.4s
100m - 1.92s 219mph
200m - 2.82s 274mph
300m - 3.56s 307mph
400m - 4.30s 328mph
1000m - 8.01s 347mph
1609m - 11.54s 393.65mph
So our pretend car can beat the record Top Fuel times, this assumes that electric traction doesn't allow us to do even better on traction.
Is this car feasible?
The battery looks quite feasible especially given we aren't challenging energy density in a drag race. It's also a relatively big item to drop heat into for 5 seconds.
The motor is more of a challenge, the best motors are about 10kw/kg. This would mean we need an 800kg motor, however those rating are for minutes of operation if not hours depending on application. If we need 5 seconds between overhauls we might be able to push much higher currents through them.
As a scoping calc let's assume that we will dump 2MW into the motor. We have cooled it with dry ice to -80C and it stops working at 200C. Copper needs 3850j/kg to raise it 1 Kelvin so for our 5 second run we only need ~10kg of copper to absorb that heat.
In reality we will need a motor with a lot more than 10kg in the windings but it is indicative that if we only need the motor to last 5 seconds then we could probably hit the 40kw/kg that an existing dragster engine manages.
The area where I can't even make some scoping calcs would be in the power electronics. I have no idea what their life Vs overload capability is or whether for this extreme application we could even use something retro like valves or a commutator.
Why hasn't someone done this, massive cost and the fact that research and development here has little practical use on any other application.
no noise = no drama.romac said:
tr3a said:
Katzenjammer said:
The Swiss German dialect of a couple of the team members is funny too.
I speak and understand German quite well. Here, I was grateful for the subtitling.
Talksteer said:
Let's do maths for a balls to the wall electric dragster.
You can get 60C LiPo batteries for drones. Let's assume we have 1000kg of them, the rest of the vehicle being 1000kg.
If the rated capacity is 175wh/kg so that is a max power of 10.5MW, let's make the drive train quite inefficient due to heat build-up so 8MW at the back wheel.
Let's assume that the peak acceleration of a top fuel dragster of 5.6gs is a limit for traction. I have an existing time step acceleration model in excel with a power curve for a Model 3 motor in it. I have put some sensible drag factors from an F1 car in it (though drag makes very little difference)
We have geared the dragster max power at about 175mph at which point power stays flat for a bit before tailing off.
Results
0-60 - 0.47s
0-100 - 0.79s
0-200 - 1.68s
0-300 - 3.4s
100m - 1.92s 219mph
200m - 2.82s 274mph
300m - 3.56s 307mph
400m - 4.30s 328mph
1000m - 8.01s 347mph
1609m - 11.54s 393.65mph
So our pretend car can beat the record Top Fuel times, this assumes that electric traction doesn't allow us to do even better on traction.
Is this car feasible?
The battery looks quite feasible especially given we aren't challenging energy density in a drag race. It's also a relatively big item to drop heat into for 5 seconds.
The motor is more of a challenge, the best motors are about 10kw/kg. This would mean we need an 800kg motor, however those rating are for minutes of operation if not hours depending on application. If we need 5 seconds between overhauls we might be able to push much higher currents through them.
As a scoping calc let's assume that we will dump 2MW into the motor. We have cooled it with dry ice to -80C and it stops working at 200C. Copper needs 3850j/kg to raise it 1 Kelvin so for our 5 second run we only need ~10kg of copper to absorb that heat.
In reality we will need a motor with a lot more than 10kg in the windings but it is indicative that if we only need the motor to last 5 seconds then we could probably hit the 40kw/kg that an existing dragster engine manages.
The area where I can't even make some scoping calcs would be in the power electronics. I have no idea what their life Vs overload capability is or whether for this extreme application we could even use something retro like valves or a commutator.
Why hasn't someone done this, massive cost and the fact that research and development here has little practical use on any other application.
Have you missed out tyre Mu somewhere. A topfuel dragster is half the weight of your theoretical car. You can get 60C LiPo batteries for drones. Let's assume we have 1000kg of them, the rest of the vehicle being 1000kg.
If the rated capacity is 175wh/kg so that is a max power of 10.5MW, let's make the drive train quite inefficient due to heat build-up so 8MW at the back wheel.
Let's assume that the peak acceleration of a top fuel dragster of 5.6gs is a limit for traction. I have an existing time step acceleration model in excel with a power curve for a Model 3 motor in it. I have put some sensible drag factors from an F1 car in it (though drag makes very little difference)
We have geared the dragster max power at about 175mph at which point power stays flat for a bit before tailing off.
Results
0-60 - 0.47s
0-100 - 0.79s
0-200 - 1.68s
0-300 - 3.4s
100m - 1.92s 219mph
200m - 2.82s 274mph
300m - 3.56s 307mph
400m - 4.30s 328mph
1000m - 8.01s 347mph
1609m - 11.54s 393.65mph
So our pretend car can beat the record Top Fuel times, this assumes that electric traction doesn't allow us to do even better on traction.
Is this car feasible?
The battery looks quite feasible especially given we aren't challenging energy density in a drag race. It's also a relatively big item to drop heat into for 5 seconds.
The motor is more of a challenge, the best motors are about 10kw/kg. This would mean we need an 800kg motor, however those rating are for minutes of operation if not hours depending on application. If we need 5 seconds between overhauls we might be able to push much higher currents through them.
As a scoping calc let's assume that we will dump 2MW into the motor. We have cooled it with dry ice to -80C and it stops working at 200C. Copper needs 3850j/kg to raise it 1 Kelvin so for our 5 second run we only need ~10kg of copper to absorb that heat.
In reality we will need a motor with a lot more than 10kg in the windings but it is indicative that if we only need the motor to last 5 seconds then we could probably hit the 40kw/kg that an existing dragster engine manages.
The area where I can't even make some scoping calcs would be in the power electronics. I have no idea what their life Vs overload capability is or whether for this extreme application we could even use something retro like valves or a commutator.
Why hasn't someone done this, massive cost and the fact that research and development here has little practical use on any other application.
I'm not saying you're wrong, but I can't see how doubling the mass, even with the power increase, drops the accel times given TF cars appear close to, if not at, traction limited.
Talksteer said:
Let's do maths for a balls to the wall electric dragster.
You can get 60C LiPo batteries for drones. Let's assume we have 1000kg of them, the rest of the vehicle being 1000kg.
If the rated capacity is 175wh/kg so that is a max power of 10.5MW, let's make the drive train quite inefficient due to heat build-up so 8MW at the back wheel.
Let's assume that the peak acceleration of a top fuel dragster of 5.6gs is a limit for traction. I have an existing time step acceleration model in excel with a power curve for a Model 3 motor in it. I have put some sensible drag factors from an F1 car in it (though drag makes very little difference)
We have geared the dragster max power at about 175mph at which point power stays flat for a bit before tailing off.
Results
0-60 - 0.47s
0-100 - 0.79s
0-200 - 1.68s
0-300 - 3.4s
100m - 1.92s 219mph
200m - 2.82s 274mph
300m - 3.56s 307mph
400m - 4.30s 328mph
1000m - 8.01s 347mph
1609m - 11.54s 393.65mph
So our pretend car can beat the record Top Fuel times, this assumes that electric traction doesn't allow us to do even better on traction.
Is this car feasible?
The battery looks quite feasible especially given we aren't challenging energy density in a drag race. It's also a relatively big item to drop heat into for 5 seconds.
The motor is more of a challenge, the best motors are about 10kw/kg. This would mean we need an 800kg motor, however those rating are for minutes of operation if not hours depending on application. If we need 5 seconds between overhauls we might be able to push much higher currents through them.
As a scoping calc let's assume that we will dump 2MW into the motor. We have cooled it with dry ice to -80C and it stops working at 200C. Copper needs 3850j/kg to raise it 1 Kelvin so for our 5 second run we only need ~10kg of copper to absorb that heat.
In reality we will need a motor with a lot more than 10kg in the windings but it is indicative that if we only need the motor to last 5 seconds then we could probably hit the 40kw/kg that an existing dragster engine manages.
The area where I can't even make some scoping calcs would be in the power electronics. I have no idea what their life Vs overload capability is or whether for this extreme application we could even use something retro like valves or a commutator.
Why hasn't someone done this, massive cost and the fact that research and development here has little practical use on any other application.
The error is where you've said 175 Wh/kg.You can get 60C LiPo batteries for drones. Let's assume we have 1000kg of them, the rest of the vehicle being 1000kg.
If the rated capacity is 175wh/kg so that is a max power of 10.5MW, let's make the drive train quite inefficient due to heat build-up so 8MW at the back wheel.
Let's assume that the peak acceleration of a top fuel dragster of 5.6gs is a limit for traction. I have an existing time step acceleration model in excel with a power curve for a Model 3 motor in it. I have put some sensible drag factors from an F1 car in it (though drag makes very little difference)
We have geared the dragster max power at about 175mph at which point power stays flat for a bit before tailing off.
Results
0-60 - 0.47s
0-100 - 0.79s
0-200 - 1.68s
0-300 - 3.4s
100m - 1.92s 219mph
200m - 2.82s 274mph
300m - 3.56s 307mph
400m - 4.30s 328mph
1000m - 8.01s 347mph
1609m - 11.54s 393.65mph
So our pretend car can beat the record Top Fuel times, this assumes that electric traction doesn't allow us to do even better on traction.
Is this car feasible?
The battery looks quite feasible especially given we aren't challenging energy density in a drag race. It's also a relatively big item to drop heat into for 5 seconds.
The motor is more of a challenge, the best motors are about 10kw/kg. This would mean we need an 800kg motor, however those rating are for minutes of operation if not hours depending on application. If we need 5 seconds between overhauls we might be able to push much higher currents through them.
As a scoping calc let's assume that we will dump 2MW into the motor. We have cooled it with dry ice to -80C and it stops working at 200C. Copper needs 3850j/kg to raise it 1 Kelvin so for our 5 second run we only need ~10kg of copper to absorb that heat.
In reality we will need a motor with a lot more than 10kg in the windings but it is indicative that if we only need the motor to last 5 seconds then we could probably hit the 40kw/kg that an existing dragster engine manages.
The area where I can't even make some scoping calcs would be in the power electronics. I have no idea what their life Vs overload capability is or whether for this extreme application we could even use something retro like valves or a commutator.
Why hasn't someone done this, massive cost and the fact that research and development here has little practical use on any other application.
That defines energy density, not power density.
Power density of li-ion is much lower at around 1 kW/kg.
The instantaneous power required to accelerate the car is 4.5 kW/ton per g per mph.
You also need a bit more to overcome rolling resistance and drag.
That's heading towards 10 MW/ton of vehicle mass at the top end of the run.
Li-ion is not the right technology for this as you are talking many tons of batteries to deliver many MW.
Supercapacitors would push the power density up by at least an order of magnitude.
The other issue is voltage, even at 800V you would need a 10,000 amp DC link.
This task would require medium voltage, which then pushes you into the realms of different types of components and insulation systems.
The reason it hasn't been done is it's extremely challenging...
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